Erin: Traveling within Canada is incredibly hard.

I don't think most people around the world realize it, but Canada is massive.

It's the second largest country globally, and the transport options

here, I'll be frank, they suck.

The quick options are expensive.

I mean, it costs more to fly from one end of Canada to the other

than to fly to other continents.

And the cheap options, they take forever.

The transport landscape in Canada is extremely limited, which means

that if you don't have a car, there are barriers to getting around.

This is a problem not just for people in Canada, but for people

who would like to visit and spend their tourism dollars here.

We're going to unpack the importance of accessible transport in Canada.

We're joined by Paris Marx, a socialist writer, host of the podcast, Tech Won't

Save Us, and critic of Tech Futures.

They'll help us understand why getting around Canada is so hard.

They'll explain the deep structural changes needed to create a

sustainable mobility system that serves the public good.

This is Alpaca My bags, the responsible travel podcast, here

to help you travel in a way that's better for you and for the planet.

I'm Erin Hynes, travel writer, accompanied, as always by

my producer, Kattie Laur.

Today we're diving into an issue that has frustrated many people who live

in and visit what we now call Canada.

Kattie: Is this the first time that you've listened to Alpaca My Bags?

If so, make sure you've hit the follow button right now on Apple

Podcasts, Spotify, and your favorite podcast app, because there is

plenty more to come this season.

Erin: If you wanna get in touch with us, you can find us on Instagram,

TikTok and Twitter at @alpacamybagspod.

Kattie: You can also DM or even email us anytime all of our

contact info is in the show notes.

Erin: We're talking about transportation across lands that are

the ancestral home to many diverse First Nations, Inuit and Metis people.

We want to honor the indigenous people who have lived and worked on

this land historically and presently.

This acknowledgement is a basic but fundamental step towards reconciliation

between us settlers and indigenous people.

So Kattie.

Kattie: Yes.

Erin: Do you have any travel plans coming up?

Kattie: Well, off the top of my head, guess where I'm headed?

Your good old hometown of Ottawa.

Erin: Oh my God.

Kattie: Woo hoo, she's going back.

What about you?

Erin: We are going somewhere at the end of November, so

I'm officially in hermit mode.

Kattie: Yes.

Erin: I'm not leaving the house because I refuse to get sick.

Ie, get covid before this trip.

But yeah, because we have travel coming up, there's a couple

things I've been thinking about.

Mainly like three big factors that I've been thinking are like really

affecting the travel landscape right now.

Two of them, you and I have talked about a lot like over

the last two and a half years.

First there was the pandemic.

Kattie: Yes.

Erin: Still an issue.

Then there was the sort of like return to travel that I guess started like kind

of early last year and is still going.

Kattie: I would say it's like majorly come back beginning of this year, like

2022 was like the big boom back to travel.

Erin: Yeah.

And kind of peaked during summer in the Western Hemisphere.

And from what I'm reading, like it is slowing down a little bit cuz

summer of course tends to be like peak travel time, but it's still an issue.

Like Pearson Airport is still a hot mess.

Kattie: Is it?

Erin: Yeah, it's not as bad.

Kattie: Okay.

Erin: But it's still bad.

I am still scared to go there.

But now we have a new factor that we get to talk about.

Yay.

Kattie: Wait, what is the new factor?

Erin: Inflation.

Kattie: Oh God.

Erin: Ruining all our travel dreams.

Because now like, no one can afford to travel.

Uh, it's like.

Travel already was like such a financial privilege.

And now it's even more so because inflation, like everything is just

causing, you know, like flights, hotels, all the things you need to buy when

you travel to become more expensive.

This is something that is top of mind for a lot of people I think.

So I was trying to think of like a tip I could give people or like how to not

let inflation ruin their travel dreams.

Okay.

Do you have any tips?

Kattie: I'm, I'm drawing a blank.

Like I wish I had more to say on it, but I don't have any tips other than like, maybe

go follow Danielle Desir Corbette and yes, listen to all of her budget travel tips

and learn how to save extra, extra money.

Erin: Ooh, another good person to call out is Gabby Beckford from Packs Light.

She's on Instagram, like Twitter.

She has her website.

If there's any time to be looking for travel opportunities, so like

scholarships and bursaries and stuff to support travel, now is the time and she

shares all of these opportunities like every week in an amazing newsletter.

If you don't follow Gabby, follow her.

Now is the time.

I have, like, this is my always my, always my go-to tip for, I guess it's

just generally a budget travel tip.

First of all is like the great pandemic lesson, which is stay close to home.

It's always, or generally a little bit cheaper.

Kattie: As we will, uh, unpack in this episode, not

necessarily in Canada, but yeah.

. Erin: Yeah.

We'll get into that.

But my big tip is if you're on a limited budget plan your trips far in

advance, especially now because that's the best way to secure like discounts.

Mm-hmm.

and to snag the best prices for things.

So I am a Google alerts queen.

I set up Google alerts for like every destination I could possibly wanna go

to, and I just get emails every time prices drop or every time they rise.

And I'll track flights for like years, literally years, waiting for them

to like drop to a price that's good.

And this has worked out really well for Luke and I, but what it means is you're

often not picking a destination just out of nowhere that you wanna go to.

It's more like letting the destination pick you.

So for example, Luke and I always knew that we wanted to go to Jordan.

It's very expensive to fly there.

So we didn't really ever like say, Oh, this is the year we're gonna go to Jordan.

And we had all these alerts going and we're subscribed to a lot of newsletters

where they share flight deals.

And one day the deal arrived and it was $400 returned from Pearson to Amman.

And we snagged that flight and that's how we traveled Jordan on a budget

because really like the biggest chunk of that budget went towards flying.

Mm-hmm.

. And we got those fights for $400.

And it was just a flash sale.

Um, so we literally got the email and booked the flight that day and

it was decided that day, okay, in three months we're going to Jordan.

Kattie: Oh my God, that's amazing.

That's essentially what Mark and I did with our trip to Portugal this year.

We knew that we just had vouchers and we had to use them before the end of

2021, and we just kind of were looking out for whatever air tap or air T A P

had going on and just looked out for things that would fit the vouchers

that we had, the cheapest thing.

And it just so happened to be Madeira Island and we just decided to spend

all of our time there and try and make it the cheapest trip possible.

And it was.

We came home with money, which is surprising.

Erin: Yeah, I've done a lot of my travels this way.

Like I would say it's pretty rare that I've ever, like, actually,

dare I say like Iceland is the only place that Lucas and I were like,

We are going to Iceland this year.

Every other year it's been like wherever we can get a good deal is where we'll go.

And then the other thing like that I always tell people is if you have

friends or family that live in places you wanna go like tap those people.

Like every time that I've gone to British Columbia or Alberta, it's been

to stay with a friend or my brother.

So yeah, if you know people living in places that you'd

like to go, invite yourself over

. Kattie: I mean, the other hot tip I'll just say is, don't build a deck.

Just don't spend all your money on wood.

Then maybe you'll be able to afford travel sometime soon.

. Erin: Kattie's speaking from personal experience in case,

in case that wasn't clear.

But Kattie, if anyone wants to visit Kattie, she has a really

beautiful deck in your backyard now.

Kattie: Yes.

Happy to host you if you're coming to Canada.

We have a great deck.

Regardless.

Inflation's not going anywhere anytime soon so we can all anticipate budget

travel for the next, how many years Erin?

Erin: I don't know.

I don't understand how the economy works if I'm serious.

Kattie: No, me neither.

Erin: Why don't we just get rid of money?

Kattie: Oh yeah, that would be great.

Erin: Let's just trade things.

Kattie: Yeah.

What would you trade?

What would be your commodity?

Erin: Like what would I do for people?

Kattie: Yeah.

Erin: Oh, that's such a good question.

Oh, I would be people's gardener.

I would grow vegetables for people.

That's what I would do.

That's a great way.

Cause I'm pretty good at that.

Kattie: Yeah.

And then you could just trade your produce.

Erin: I'm good at like sewing seeds, which sounds silly, but like I really enjoy it.

Like you just, you see their little heads poke out and they need a lot of nurturing.

So that's what I would do.

So what would you do?

You're so crafty.

You have so many skills.

Kattie: I think I'm pretty crafty.

I think I just have a knack for talking in general.

Erin: Oh, you would be the community therapist.

Kattie: I would be the community therapist?

You think so?

Erin: Yeah.

Kattie: Oh my God, that's so nice of you.

Erin: I mean, you'd be my therapist.

Kattie: I think I would be the, I would be the community announcer.

Like I would be basically the community version of the morning

announcements team in high school.

Erin: Ooh.

Like this is what's going on in the community.

Erin has fresh seeds available.

Kattie: Yeah.

Yeah.

I would be the town PR and I would go around to everyone,

find out what their news is.

I would just gather everyone in the town, in the community and yell out

all the things that are going on.

I don't think that's a valuable job.

Is it a value job?

Erin: Yeah, it's, it's.

I think it is because you need someone like keeping everyone in the loop.

Kattie: That's true.

So I would come to you and I would say, Hey Erin, what kind

of news do you have going on?

What are the fresh, what are the fresh vegetables that you have being grown?

Okay, I'll trade you a vegetable for me announcing that you have this vegetable

. Erin: Wait, can I have a second skill?

Kattie: Yeah, obviously.

Erin: Cause I also think I would maybe run the cat sanctuary.

Kattie: Yeah, this isn't capitalism, Erin.

You can do whatever you want.

Erin: Honestly, this is what I would do.

I would have a cat sanctuary.

That would be a garden.

Kattie: But would the cats be allowed in the garden?

Please tell me no.

Erin: Why can't they be in the garden?

Kattie: Cause they would poop in there.

Erin: Yeah.

Clean it up!

Kattie: Erin.

That's disgusting.

Erin: You wash our vegetables before we eat them.

Should we make this like in a video game world?

Our, our world ? Should we do that?

Kattie: Yeah, we should.

You should just get Animal Crossing and we can have an island together and just

live out this fantasy of non-reality.

Erin: Animal Crossing sounds really fun though.

The thing is, I've never played it because I know that if I start

to, I'll become a total addict.

Cuz that's what happened when I played the Sims and I had

to delete it cuz it got bad.

Kattie: I didn't know you were a Sims girl.

Oh my God.

Uh, I love learning new things about you.

Erin: No, in the time you've known me, I've been in in Sims addiction mode.

Kattie: What?

Erin: But I always, I don't tell people cuz I'm so self-conscious

about my Sims addiction.

Kattie: Oh my God.

This is the thing, Mark bought me a whole version of Sims and like I couldn't

get into it cuz it was just, it was just too real life like it was asking

me to go to work, which, All Sims.

They're all like this.

Erin: No, no, no, no, no, no.

It's the wrong Sims.

Listen, Rollercoaster Tycoon.

Kattie: That's not the Sims.

Erin: Yeah, it is.

Kattie: It's not an official Sims game.

Erin: It's not?

Kattie: No, it's its own game.

Erin: So I'm just a Rollercoaster Tycoon addict?

Kattie: Yeah, you're just a rollercoaster [laughs].

Well, I'm glad we have been able to turn around the depressing thoughts

about inflation totally derailing our travel plans to all of this good stuff.

I feel a lot happier now.

I'm glad we talked

. Erin: Yeah.

Also, inflation anxiety is real and it's, we're all in the same boat right now.

Mm-hmm.

times are tough.

It's gonna be okay.

I hope.

That just went dark again.

Maybe you should cut that.

Paris, Welcome!

I'm super excited to chat with you and I'm super excited about this topic

because we have a lot of listeners actually who aren't Canadian, and I

know from chatting with some of our listeners in our DMs, many of them have

not been to Canada, so their knowledge isn't, you know, as wide as ours.

So lots of people aren't aware of how hard it is to get around Canada,

but I was hoping you could share with us, um, the Cliff notes on your

background in critiquing technology and also looking at modes of transport.

Paris: Thanks so much for having me on the show.

Really excited to chat with you both.

Um, you know, I, I guess for me, you know, transport was something

that I was interested in and have been interested in for a long time.

I started traveling more often around 2013.

You know, I'm, I'm from Newfoundland, St.

John's, Newfoundland on the east coast of Canada.

You know, it's like a small provincial capital.

The transit system is not great.

Most people get around by cars.

We don't have trains.

Um, and so then being able to go to different cities and see how

things worked in different places was really kind of informative for

me in showing me how things could work differently in different places.

And so around 2015, 2016, I started to write more, you know, freelance about

transportation and technology as well.

That was a moment when there was a lot of focus on Uber and smart

cities and, and those sorts of ideas.

And then in 2018, I went back and did a master's at McGill University.

That was in geography.

It was on transportation and technology as a result of the

work that I did on that masters.

You know, looking at electric cars, ride hailing services, self-driving

cars, all these sorts of things.

I wrote a book based on, you know, the research that I did on that, that came

out recently, you know, and that's called Road to Nowhere: What Silicon Valley gets

wrong about the future of transportation and, and the book like I think that

there's some broad aspects of it that applied to a lot of different places.

But when we talk about the history, you know, in the book I focus a lot on the

United States because, you know, that's the home of the automobile really.

It's where the automobile really takes off and is entrenched, but it's also

where Silicon Valley is located, right?

So it really makes sense for the book to look at the US but that doesn't mean

that I don't have thoughts and knowledge on, uh, transportation in Canada as well.

Being that I'm from here and have, uh, been to many parts of the country.

Erin: Mm-hmm.

. And I guess as the neighboring country, a lot of the sort of like auto-focused

culture is present here as well.

I think a lot of our transportation was built around the concept

of the car as well in Canada.

Paris: Absolutely.

Erin: But before we get into the weeds, best transit system

you've ever experienced in the world of everywhere you've been?

Paris: Oh, . That's so hard.

Erin: I didn't give you a heads up about this one.

. Paris: Yeah.

I feel like I, I've been on a bunch that, like, I've enjoyed, I feel like

there's a special place in my heart for like, you know, the Paris Metro.

I, I kind of love it.

Sure.

It can be like dirty sometimes, but like, it's just so kind of comprehensive, right?

There's like so many stations.

It's everywhere.

I, yeah, I'd probably pick that one.

Like if we're thinking North America, like obviously I really like Montreal.

Um, and you know, certainly I wish that the New York subway

got a bit more investment so it wasn't so run down all the time.

But yeah,

. Erin: We wanted to make this episode about transportation and accessibility

about our own home because like many Canadians, Kattie and I are well

aware of and frustrated with how difficult it is to get around Canada.

So as a traveler, I must say, I sometimes feel a bit embarrassed by how

little of my own home that I've seen.

I have found when I chat with non Canadians abroad, they're often surprised

by the fact that I, for example, haven't been, I don't even think I've

been to half of Canada's provinces.

And the sad thing is I would love to see more of Canada.

It's just surprisingly challenging because first, everything from

hotels to meals is expensive.

So it's not cheap to travel around this country.

And second, it's really hard to get around, particularly if

you don't drive or have a car.

And I do not have a license.

I cycle everywhere in my city, so I can't even rent a car if I want to.

Basically my whole adult life, I have relied on trains and

flights to travel around Canada.

In recent years, I've been really grateful to have been able to see more,

mainly because my partner drives, so we, we are now able to get around by

car or I am thanks to him and because I have friends and family around the

country that I'm able to travel and visit, um, which makes domestic travel

more financially accessible for me.

Um, so that's sort of my story of travel in Canada.

Paris, I was hoping you could describe your experiences traveling around Canada

and maybe what your personal frustrations are with the state of transport here.

Paris: It's a really good point and I, and I kind of echo the things

that you're saying, but I will say that I'm from Newfoundland, right?

It's very difficult to get anywhere from Newfoundland.

You have to fly, or there is certainly, there are two fairies,

or I guess three fairies that will take you off the province.

You need to drive to get to them.

There are quite long rides and then that takes you to Nova Scotia or

Labrador where, you know, you still usually have to have to drive for a bit

longer, uh, in order to get anywhere.

Right.

Uh, and even within the province, it can be difficult to get around.

Sure, there are some intercity bus services, but they're not very great.

They're not very reliable.

For me, the first time I went to British Columbia, you have to fly

about three, three and a half hours to Toronto first and then it's

like, what, four and a half or five hours from Toronto to to Vancouver.

Right?

Like that's a, that's a lot of flying to get across one country.

As you're saying, the distances are, are really far.

Airline travel can be quite expensive in Canada, particularly after the pandemic

I think we've seen it gone up a bit more.

There are some more budget airlines that are in, and I feel

conflicted on budget airlines.

Cuz on one hand, you know, it's good to have that kind of travel be more

affordable to people, but at the same time, do you want to promote

more like unnecessary travel when airline travel is quite a emissions

intensive and things like that.

Right.

But then if you're looking to get around outside of some of the main

corridors in Canada, like between say Toronto to Montreal or Quebec City

or Edmonton and Calgary, a few of the areas where it makes sense to get

around in a way that's maybe not by flying, by driving or taking the train.

If you're certainly between Toronto and and Montreal or Quebec City,

those things can be accessible.

But otherwise you often have to fly within Canada because the country is so large.

Erin: Absolutely, and you can take the train across much of Canada, but

that also is inaccessibly expensive.

. Paris: Yeah, it, it's both expensive and it takes a while.

Erin: It takes a lot, right?

A lot of time.

It's a time commit.

Paris: Yeah, and if you think about the way that, the way that many people travel

right now, they might have two or three weeks of vacation during the year, and so

they're trying to fit in as much as they can within that short period of time.

If you have the choice to fly or, or take a train, that's gonna be really long,

especially if you're going any distance that is, that is any bit notable, then

it becomes harder to justify the train because then that's a bigger chunk of

my short period of vacation time that has to be dedicated to actually getting

to the place I want to go, rather than, you know, just hopping on a flight for

a few hours and getting there, right?

Erin: Well, we've both alluded to some of the failures of transportation

infrastructure in Canada in terms of our own experiences, but could

you paint a full picture for us?

What is a state of transportation across the country?

What's the landscape like?

And you can narrow down to one, one area or just mention infrastructure

depending on which region, Whatever works.

Paris: Sure.

You know, I think I'd approach it broadly, right?

Like if you're thinking about different means or different

modes of getting around.

You know, we have a very strong and robust infrastructure for

driving around the country.

If you own a car or, or are able to rent a car, then you can certainly get around.

Right?

You know, there are plenty of highways that will, that you,

that will get you through places.

I hear it's not very fun to drive through Northern Ontario, but at least you can do

it . Um, you know, uh, and then if you're through the prairies, you know, I hear

that, that it just looks like things go on forever because everything's really flat.

If you're driving anywhere, it can be pretty easy.

Certainly distances are large if you're, you know, depending

on where you are in the country.

So it can take a little while sometimes, but I think it's quite natural.

Many Canadians will be used to taking road trips or, or driving long distances

in order to get to where they are going.

Then if you think about trains, that's, that's another piece of it, right?

Certainly we have via rail in Canada, which is the passenger train service,

they tend not to own the actual rails that they drive on because

those rails were privatized by the federal government in the eighties or

nineties, somewhere around that period.

And so that means that the trains often encounter frequent delays and it's also,

you know, just a regular train service.

It's not high speed rail or, or anything like that.

Often the, the train services, especially outside key routes,

will not be very frequent.

Certainly there is a project that is finally kicking off right now that Via

rail has, was trying to get the federal government to fund for years and they

finally, um, said they would fund it last year, which is called High Frequency Rail,

in order to get a bit more frequent and faster service on that kind of southern

Ontario through to Quebec route where over half of the Canadian population lives.

But that is not poised to be finished until 2030 or after that.

And that's still not high speed rail, right.

And, and that extends to most of the country.

You know, you won't have so much up north because of how remote it is up there.

Um, and Newfoundland also does not have trains because they were torn up after

privatization and things like that.

So yeah, we have no trains unfortunately.

Then on top of that, sorry I'm going on a little bit long , but buses, intercity

buses, certainly they exist in some parts of the country, but Greyhound has

recently finished pulling out of Canada.

They initially pulled out of Western Canada, now have basically

fully pulled out of Canada.

There might be some routes that like Vancouver to Seattle, I

think they might still be running.

There might be some more cross-border routes that that are still operating.

But basically within Canada, Greyhound doesn't operate and they were a major

intercity bus provider for the most part.

You know, a lot of intercity bus services have become far less reliable and part

of the promise was that the private sector would simply fill the gaps

and certainly that has not happened.

Right.

And so then finally, I guess the other key piece is obviously the airlines.

Canada is dominated by Air Canada, the former public airline, um, which has

been privatized, but many people would say is kind of like, uh, still treated

as the national carrier and often gets, you know, subsidized and favorable

treatment from the federal government.

And then West Jet is the other big one within Canada.

There are, as I said, some budget airlines that have launched recently.

There are some smaller regional airlines that exist.

Um, but often air travel within Canada is, you know, rather expensive.

And that's in part, that's because of how airline services

are taxed in Canada as well.

But there are some, some routes that are getting cheaper as a result

of the rollout of budget services, particularly since the pandemic.

If we're thinking about how most people in Canada would be traveling long

distances, it would be on a plane.

Erin: Yeah.

Just to go back to rail travel, could you explain what the high frequency rail is?

Does that just mean a separate rail track for, uh, like commuter trains to take?

Paris: Yeah, it, it's a good question.

You know, Via Rail often does not own its own infrastructure.

Right now it does not own the rails because they were owned by, um, CN

Rail, uh, which was a former public.

Erin: I've had many train trips interrupted with that announcement.

All Canadians know.

Paris: E Exactly, and so CN used to be owned by the government.

It used to be the public rail company, Freight rail for the most part, but they

also had the passenger service, which became VIA Rail after privatization.

This project, High Frequency Rail, is a recognition that this route

between Southern Ontario, through to Quebec has a lot of passengers on it.

A lot of people live there.

A lot more people would take it if it was more reliable and more frequent.

And so they're finally making the investment to build out a dedicated

track on that route for the trains.

But as I said, this is still like a, a conventional rail track.

It's not a high speed track.

And so it will allow the trains to go a bit faster.

It will allow them to be a bit more frequent because they won't have

to be negotiating with freight rail that has priority on those, on those

routes, on the current infrastructure.

But, you know, one thing that rail advocates often point out is that, you

know, the service offered on VIA Rail right now is actually slower than what

it was decades ago just because of how it hasn't really kept up with the

demands of the public, I would say.

And is really, I would argue, obviously my book is a lot about cars, I would

argue is a victim of the focus that we've had on automobiles and, and all of the

investment that we put in automobiles and everything else that's not a car

has suffered as a result of that.

Kattie: Can I just say, I had no idea that this much of our transport was

privatized and that that is awful.

Paris: Yeah.

Erin: I traveled a lot in Europe and so I used the rail system a lot

and that is where I became obsessed with trains and just realized like

the potential for train travel.

And also in India.

Like in India, we got literally everywhere on trains and they were reliable.

They ran all the time.

You literally don't need a vehicle.

But I'm thinking specifically about my time living in the Netherlands,

cuz I lived in Groningen, which is a city in the north and it's actually

known for being one of the most cyclist friendly cities in the world.

The entire city is built around cycling culture and something I've noticed about

the Netherlands and of course, you can't compare Canada and the Netherlands cuz

the Netherlands is so like, it's so high density, but you, you can live your

entire life there, like without a car ever because you'll cycle through the

cities which are built for cycling and then there are trains going literally

everywhere at every moment of the day.

I would never even like plan which train I was taking.

If I was going to another city or another town, I would just go to

the train station and there would be a train going that direction.

And this to me was truly heaven.

. Is that a possibility in Canada?

Like is it a psyche thing where we're just too obsessed with like

building all our infrastructure around the concept of a car?

Or is it just that we're like too big and too spread out?

Is that possible for us?

Paris: I would say it's a bit of both.

I, I recently did an event in, in Amsterdam.

I was over in the Netherlands.

Right.

And, and one of the things that I feel like a lot of North American urbanists

look to Amsterdam and, and the Netherlands in particular to be like, Look, this is

how things could, could work if only we made the right investments and whatnot.

Right.

And I would say like, there are certainly are things that we can

learn from the Netherlands, but at the same time, after a century of

building for the car, things are going to look a little bit differently.

Right.

We're, we're in a very different situation.

But that's not to say that the reason that the Netherlands is the way it

is, Is not the result of public policy decisions, which it very much is.

Right?

Like in the 1950s and sixties and, and even into the seventies, there

was a big push for the Netherlands to be remade for the automobile, right?

Like a lot of buildings were raised, a lot of public spaces were filled with

cars and turned into parking lots.

Like all these sorts of things were happening and people were

not ready to accept it, right?

People fought back against it because they saw the way that

their communities were changing.

It was not in benefit of them in, in many cases, and people were dying.

There's a really prominent group at the time called, um, Stop the Child

Murder that, you know, obviously uses this very evocative name, but

because the vehicles were rolling out, it was children in particular

that were dying in elevated numbers.

And for a while the rate of road deaths in the Netherlands was actually

higher than even the United States.

So it was really like significant, right?

It was a real shock to people who were used to a different way of getting around.

And so they started campaigning to stop this rollout of the automobile,

the remaking of the city for the automobile, and to really, you know,

adopt policies that were more oriented around bicycles and, you know, investing

in the rail system and things like that.

So that's just to say if we think about Canada now, I think there are things

that we can learn from that, right?

In part, the reason our transportation system is the way it is, is the

result of policy decisions that were made over many decades, right?

But at the same time, Canada now has the legacy of those decisions that it

needs to grapple with as we think about how transportation can be different.

But we also have to recognize that we're not also a small

country like the Netherlands.

You know, we're a vast kind of sprawling country.

But also one of the things to remember there is that people still

generally live in a pretty small area of that sprawling landscape, right?

I think that Canadian cities could look very differently than they are today if we

started to refocus some of our investment and attention away from the automobile

and toward expanding transit services, expanding cycling infrastructure, and

also rethinking the ways that we build our communities so that they're not so

sprawling and that they don't basically enforce car dependence on people

because of the way that they're built.

Mm-hmm.

. Erin: And I think there's ways to incentivize this.

Like I, I recently was in a Reddit argument with someone

about whether Toronto should have a tax for cars coming in.

Um, which is something that, from what I understand, some European cities do.

If you like, drive into a city like you'll be.

You'll be charged a tax essentially to bring your car in unless you're

like a resident of the city.

And that's like, I guess to encourage people to take commuter trains in

and then like get around on public transport once they're in the city.

But yeah, there's a lot of resistance to this idea.

Paris: Yeah.

, I am not a fan of it as well.

You London does it.

Stockholm does it.

And you know, obviously the argument is you put a, you put a price on driving

your car into the city and then obviously fewer people will drive into the city.

Right.

In the places where that policy has been successful, it has had to be

accompanied by investments in the transit system and kind of thinking about the

distribution of road space, right.

I'm not a big fan of the, the approach to pricing things as

a means to incentivize action.

Because to me, I don't like to see more of society marketized.

But I also look at, say, cities like Oslo or Paris that have been

really successful in promoting like a change of, in how people get around.

Paris has been really successful in getting people out of cars and getting

more people to take transit during the pandemic in particular, expanding

cycling, getting more people onto bikes.

And part of the reason for that success has not been because they've taxed

drivers in that kind of way, but rather because they looked at the way that

the roads were built, the way that space was distributed on those roads.

And they said, You know what?

We're taking these roads away from cars or we're, we're reducing the number

of lanes that are available to cars.

You know, we're going to make them bus lanes, or we're gonna make

them pedestrian areas, or we're gonna turn them in the cycle lanes.

And so there are fewer places for the car to go in the city,

so fewer people can actually come into the city and drive that way.

And because we've redistributed the street space, Buses go faster, it's

easier for cyclists to get around.

There's more room for them.

They can feel safer.

But like if, if we're talking about more of an abstract way, how we deal with these

problems, my preference is not to have a price and just to look at more of the kind

of structural nature of the streets and how we change that in order to incentivize

different means of getting around.

Erin: Yeah, that's a really good point.

And I think even just in discussions with people I know in Toronto who

don't cycle, a lot of the avoidance of cycling has been safety.

People just don't feel safe biking, which is fair.

Like I, I've found as I get older, I feel more nervous cycling in the

city because I'm just more hyper aware of like how quickly my life

could change if something goes wrong.

Building the infrastructure to make cycling more safe would really incentivize

people without having to use money.

So I think it's important to highlight inequities that we personally may

not face, um, maybe because of the individual privileges we have.

Um, so I'm curious what you would say are the most alarming inequities that

are being caused by the failures of our infrastructure in Canada for transport.

Paris: Oh, yeah.

There, there are many.

Right?

By focusing on the automobile over everything else, you've essentially

created a system where much of the population has to own an automobile

as well, especially if it's difficult for them to afford it.

And if you think about it, like an ownership of of a vehicle

in Canada is somewhere between like eight to $13,000 a year.

And that's really significant for a lot of people, especially someone on

minimum wage or, or close to it, right?

And so then on top of that, there are the people who can't even afford

to get a vehicle at all, right?

Really marginalized low income people.

And depending on where they are, that can mean access to really kind

of poorly funded and infrequent, unreliable transit services.

But that's all they have, right?

And so then maybe they're out waiting for the bus every morning for 15, 20 minutes.

You don't know when it's gonna arrive.

Is it gonna be there on time?

You probably won't have a bus shelter.

So maybe you're just open to the elements then, and then maybe, you

know, you need to transfer a few times to different buses and be waiting.

It might take you two hours to get to work or something just because of

how unreliable this system is, right?

And so I think that we've set the system up in a way that's certainly beneficial

to certain commercial interests.

That certainly works really well for certain privileged and even

middle class people in society.

But I think that there's a lot of people who this system doesn't work for as well.

. And then I think if we think really specifically, intercity bus services

in particular have been very important for people in rural areas,

in remote communities, in order to access services, doctor services,

reach family, things like that.

And so as we saw the exit of Greyhound from Canada and the shutdown of things

like the Saskatchewan Public Bus Service, that meant that a lot of kind

of marginalized people were then left without that form of transportation.

And this has been a particular concern for Aboriginal women

who would use those services.

But then when they're taken away or if they're living in places

where they were never available, they end up having to hitchhike.

And of course this has led to a lot of them going missing, getting murdered.

You know, this is the issue of missing and murdered indigenous women that

we hear about quite often in Canada.

Uh, and so especially when we're in a moment when we're talking about

reconciliation and you know, the problems that indigenous people have faced in

Canada, the rolling back of intercity bus services is a real step backward.

Um, and if we really want to address the problems with the transportation

system, we need to start investing in those alternatives so that

people have reliable public transit, whether that's within their cities,

but also between cities as well.

Erin: That's really, I I wanted to tie this a little

bit more directly into tourism.

Back in season two, we recorded with Ryan McMahon, who's an indigenous comedian

and host of the podcast, Thunder Bay, and he shared with us why indigenous

tourism is so lacking in Canada.

Um, one of the big points that he made was that bad transportation

infrastructure cuts off access to indigenous communities for the people

who live there, but also for tourists.

And it also is a missed opportunity for those tourists to go and put

their dollars into indigenous hands.

We talked in that episode a bit about how beneficial indigenous tourism

has been in places like New Zealand.

So I genuinely feel like access to transport is an essential service that

should be available to everyone, and Canada is fully failing our indigenous

communities on that front, right?

Paris: Yeah.

Like especially if we think about the investments that we

can make in the transportation system in order to improve access.

Certainly for me, you know, my top goal wouldn't be making it easier

for tourists to, to get around.

Right.

Because I think it's much more important to ensure that people have

the right to access various services, including people in remote communities.

People in indigenous communities, you know, should still have that same right

as someone in large major city like Toronto or or wherever else, right?

It just might look a little bit different depending on what is

going to work in those situations.

But that's not to say that there can't be kind of complimentary investments

that are made so that things that benefit local communities also benefit tourists.

And even having that kind of tourism and promoting that tourism can make things

better for those remote communities and and rural communities as well.

New Zealand stands out for me.

It's somewhere where I've spent quite a bit of time, I lived there in the past.

I've done a lot of travel within the country.

Right.

And one of the things that stood out to me when I was there was that New

Zealand has a very robust inner city bus system that really goes throughout

the country and that makes it much easier for people throughout the

country to be able to get on a bus and go somewhere else within the country.

Right?

You can easily book a bus, go there.

The fairs are quite cheap.

And part of the reason that that worked was because tourists

also took the intercity buses.

And so you had the revenue from the tourists to support that degree or

or quantity of service that existed.

And then that benefited local people as well because they

could also take those buses.

Whether that would work exactly the same in Canada because of the vast geography.

Maybe not, but I think that there are places in Canada where those

things could work really well.

You know, it's something that I say we should have all the

time in, in Newfoundland.

Certainly, you know, it, it's a part of the country that I'm most familiar

with, but every summer there are the stories about how there are not enough

rental cars in the province, right?

Where we're an island after all, tourists come and it's hard for them to get around

because they can't get a rental car.

And it's always like, why don't we have like a good intercity bus service

that not only serves the people of the province so that they can get around

the province without having a car?

Particularly where our province is quite older, you know, they're

more seniors than average in, in some of the bigger provinces.

But then people who actually come to visit the province, We'd be

able to get around on this, on this intercity bus system as well.

Right.

But that would require investment from the government to set something like that up.

It would take money, would, would take some time and effort, whereas just

allowing the automotive infrastructure to continue to exist and allowing

services like Touro to come in and that try to act as a stop gap for the lack

of rental cars is treated as the easier alternative because it doesn't require

the government to actually do anything.

Erin: And I actually think it can be a mechanism for like helping

to relieve overtourism as well.

Because if tourists have access to transport to bring them to further

flung areas, or even just like for example, instead of going to Banff,

if there were other like mountainous towns that you could visit, you might

go to them rather than everyone coming to the one most accessible location.

Kattie, as you know, travel for me does not always go according to plan.

Kattie: Oh yes, I am well aware having made over 80 episodes of

this podcast, I know that mishaps can happen when anyone travels.

Erin: Absolutely.

And when they do, you need travel insurance, and I couldn't

recommend World Nomads more.

When I ended up in the hospital in Australia World Nomads provided me with

emergency assistance so I could get the help I needed and carry on with my trip.

Not only was World Nomads able to direct me to the nearest

hospital, but my hefty medical bills were covered under my policy.

World Nomads encourages all travelers to be prepared when adventuring

abroad carry a first aid kit.

Research local etiquette and customs, learn some of the language, and most

importantly, take the time to understand your travel insurance policy and what

to do in case you need to use it.

If things go wrong on your travels, world, Nomads will be there to provide the

emergency assistance you need, benefits, limits, conditions, and exclusions apply.

Be sure to read your policy wording, learn more and get a quote at worldnomads.com.

The link is in our show notes.

So let's talk a bit about solutions.

Obviously there's a lot to say, but in your mind, , or from your analysis, what

would you say are the top three changes that need to happen to make travel more

accessible and equitable across Canada?

Paris: Oh, that, that's interesting.

Top three.

Let me see if, if it'll be three.

But I think that some things that, that would be really kind of impactful

and really important, right, is in one part, if provincial or federal

governments started to subsidize the operations funding of transit services.

So right now a lot of transit projects in Canada, it's kind of split between

the federal government, the provincial government, and the municipal government.

And so that's for capital costs, right?

Purchasing buses, building subway lines, things like that, right?

Uh, you know, it's something that you can go cut a ribbon on, but then

when it actually comes to operating that service day to day, that's just

on the municipal government, right?

And so that takes some money in order to run those services.

And municipal governments often have the fewest tax tools are very reliant

on property taxes, for example.

And so if you had, you know, provincial or federal governments fund a part

of the operations funding of transit services, that would free up money in

the municipalities so that they could expand those services even further.

I would also say that I think we should really have, if not the

federal government, then provincial governments step in and create

public intercity bus services.

It's been very clear that the private sector has not been able to

step in and, and provide adequate services to people to be able to get

between communities without cars.

The third thing I would say is make some investment in high speed

rail , like, you know, build a high speed rail line from like Waterloo

straight through to Quebec City.

We need it.

And then, you know, work with Amtrak to extend it through to Detroit and

Chicago, but also high speed rail between Calgary and and Edmonton.

Like such an obvious one, like why should anyone be flying between those two?

High speed rail from Vancouver down the Pacific Northwest.

Certainly that's mainly on the American side.

That would, that would have to happen like at the moment right

now, Canada is a huge country.

We're not going to get rid of air travel, but I think that we need to be reasonable

about what we can do, and that is to try to get rid of as many short haul

trips on planes as we possibly can.

And that means expanding at least a start high speed rail in those really

densely populated corridors where a lot of those shorter trips happen.

Why should anyone be flying between Montreal and Ottawa or Ottawa and

Toronto, even Toronto to Montreal?

None of those plane trips should be happening.

Those routes shouldn't even exist, right?

Those should be served by trains and high speed trains at that.

And so those would be my three things.

Give some more funding to transit, expand intercity bus services, create

public InnerCity bus services, and finally make some investments in high

speed rail and build those train lines.

Erin: Thank you.

This segues so well into my next question.

Kattie: Can I say also that segues perfectly into the joke that I've been

dying to make that's not a joke anymore?

About Drake flying between Hamilton and Toronto.

Nobody needs to be flying between Hamilton and Toronto.

A 14 to 18 minute flight.

Paris: It's like Elon Musk flying.

Uh, he flew from San Jose to San Francisco, which is like,

I think like a three or five minute flight or something like.

Erin: And then he has the audacity to say he made Tesla

cuz he wants to save the world.

Paris: Yeah.

. Kattie: Yes.

Well Drake is a part of some climate change group as well.

And then he went on to say, well I wasn't actually flying those flights.

They were just moving the airplanes around between hangers.

Erin: That's doesn't make it better

. Kattie: Yeah.

The flights, ir makes it worse.

The fact that there was nobody in the plane.

. Paris: Yeah.

Get in your Escalade and drive down that highway and take the plane from Hamilton.

Kattie: Yeah.

, get on the Go train from Aldershot there to Union Station

and suck it the heck up, Drake.

Paris: So I didn't expect him to like get around the plebs, you know, sit

on the train with everyone else so at least they could escalate down there.

Kattie: how could Drake ever be stuck on the Q E W ? Anyway, I

deleted that note from our script now, Erin, so you don't have to

pause for me to cue that in anymore.

. Erin: Kattie was very excited to make this joke.

Paris: They're so bad though, right?

Because you'll have all these rich people, you know, someone like Drake,

but also Elon Musk or Leo DiCaprio or Bill Gates and like, they'll talk so

much about how much they care about like the environment and how we need

to be like addressing climate change.

But then they'll never actually change like how they live.

And they still like live in their big old mansions.

They take their private jets everywhere, even to like accept

climate change champion awards and all this kind of stuff.

And then they're like, No, but you know, I buy carbon offsets and and whatnot, right?

And it's like, no, like, That's not good enough.

Like you can't claim to be a climate champion and then like, you know,

live this lifestyle that is just like unimaginable to most of the population.

And that is like driving so much of, of this kind of climate change and emissions

and, and all these problems, right?

Like if you're not willing to change how you live personally, even like just

to live somewhat like a normal person.

Like why should you be getting hailed as some like awesome person who's saving the

planet when you're not doing that at all?

And many of the solutions that you tell us we should be taking are like, don't

go nearly far enough to actually address the scale of the problem that we face.

Erin: Mm-hmm.

, they love to make it our problem.

Paris: Yeah.

And then on top of that, we're told that then we need to make the

individual kind of choices and actions in order to address the climate

crisis and, and to fix climate change.

And it's like, but we can't actually make those choices unless there's

public policy that like, makes those choices possible for people.

Like, you know, it's great to say that everyone should take transit or,

or ride a bike, but what if they're stuck in some suburb that has been

built to make them dependent on a car and then you don't have the public

policy intervention to actually try to change that and, and make it so that.

It's more reasonable to actually take transit, improve transit in those areas,

change the way that they're designed so that you have like, you know, different

businesses and things that are located in there instead of just being like a

sprawling thing of single family homes.

Like it requires the kind of government response to make things happen.

But they always want like the government to really stay out of things unless

they're just like funding private companies to like, you know, make

their little projects more profitable.

Yep.

Sorry, this is my rant,

. Erin: I love it.

I love it.

I fully agree.

Okay, so I did a little homework for this episode.

Paris: Okay.

Erin: And I looked up how many flights operate from Toronto

to Montreal on an average day?

Paris: Okay.

Erin: Guess, guess how many flights.

Paris: 40.

Erin: Yeah.

, you got it exactly right.

Paris: Really?

Erin: Okay.

Well also this is an average based on a couple days that I

checked just to see like how many, generally we're going every day.

And those are just the direct ones.

So I looked that up because I kind of, it kind of blows my mind how

many people fly those distances when you can easily take the train.

But I also do understand, because via rail isn't always the most reliable.

Like it can take more time depending on what happens with your route.

Paris: Um, totally.

Like even then, like Via Rail kind of even makes sense on that route too, right?

Like via Rail's, what, five, five to six hours on that route?

I think.

Erin: Well, this is what I was gonna say because I, so I used to fly Toronto to

Montreal for work and my company would.

Book me a flight and one day I said, it takes me the same amount of time

on the train, like from start to finish because I have to travel like

an hour and a half to the airport outside of Toronto, wait for my plane.

Paris: And you get there early,

Erin: like Yeah.

And then when I land in Montreal, it's an hour to get into the city.

So ultimately I was like, I'd honestly rather take the train.

I'd just sit on the train and like do some work on the wifi.

But I think one of the problems, and this relates to your point about high

frequency rail, I think the problem is there's only three to five trains that go

per day and it costs the same as a flight.

So I do understand why people would look at that and say, Well, I'm

gonna take the one hour flight.

Paris: Totally.

And it looks better.

Like if you're not thinking about the kind of larger picture of

transportation, then it's like that's an hour, whereas the train is five hours.

Yeah.

But then if you add in all of like kind of the travel time and the waiting

time and all those sorts of things.

Erin: So where I'm going with this is flights obviously are

the least sustainable option for traveling between the cities.

It doesn't seem like there's a lot of investment being put towards

like providing sustainable options for travel within Canada, and it's

part of like the bigger, larger question that we're asking here.

But what do you think needs to happen?

Like to work not just towards like stronger infrastructure, but like

more sustainable infrastructure?

Paris: It's a really good question, right?

And it's one that makes me really frustrated.

You know, the Canadian government does really greenwash itself and does

really present itself as though it really cares about climate change and

that it's really kind of taking these actions that are necessary to address

the climate crisis when actually we see that they haven't really been

successful at reducing emissions.

And especially in the past couple years, they've been doing a lot to

promote electric vehicles, right?

And, you know, electric vehicles will be part of the transition.

I, I have no doubt about that.

They are in most cases, better than an internal combustion vehicle.

But we can't stop there.

Right?

We also need to be making the investments to ensure that people can also get out of

vehicles because not driving is much more sustainable than driving an electric car.

And so it really frustrates me then to see that as they're talking so much about

promoting green transportation and all these sorts of things, that they're not

making the investments that we really.

In transit infrastructure one, but also in rail infrastructure.

That's so important.

If we think about reducing these unnecessary short haul flights

via rail has been asking them to do this for like seven years.

They've been in power since 2015 and they've only approved it last year.

For me, it kind of makes me question their kind of green credibility, right?

And, and it does make it seem like greenwashing rather

than a serious commitment.

But then if you bring up the topic of high speed rail, you know, that isn't

even really on on the plate, right?

That isn't even on the options that they're considering.

When I think it's really something that we should be doing instead of after

we've made these massive investments in automotive infrastructure that force so

many people to get around by car, it's time to try to equalize those investments,

especially on these corridors like Southern Ontario through to Quebec, that

is like the, the peak place where these investments should be being made, where

we should be investing in, um, high speed rail to eliminate these flights.

And also just to make it easier for people to get around in that corridor,

to get between these different cities, especially as the cities have become

more expensive and continue to get more expensive, that it, it just

makes sense to make these investments.

And so it makes me incredibly frustrated that that doesn't happen, and I don't

think you're going to see it happen until you really get more kind of, People

organized in order to demand those sorts of investments from the government.

Because right now, part of the reason that you're seeing so much investment in

electric vehicles and so much attention on electric vehicles is because Canada has

a big automotive manufacturing industry.

They want to benefit from building more electric vehicles, but Canada

also has a major resource extraction industry, and there's gonna be a lot

of minerals and a lot of mining that's gonna be necessary for the batteries

that go into all those vehicles.

75% of global mining companies are headquartered in Canada, which is

something that many people don't realize.

And so there's a big kind of corporate lobby that exists both on the mining

front and the automotive front to promote this as the means through which

we address climate change and, and its contribution to transportation.

And, you know, there's a far less powerful lobby for transit and

trains and, and things like that, especially because we've done so

little investment in them for so long.

Erin: So it's economically convenient to frame EVs as the best solution

we have for sustainability.

Paris: Certainly, and it also requires less work.

The infrastructure is already all here.

We're all already dependent on cars because of decisions that

have been made over the course of basically a century now.

And so it requires more political work to come in and to say, Actually now

we want to encourage you to get around in a different way to, for more of

you to get rid of your automobiles.

Whereas instead, we could just, you know, promote the automotive industry.

Certainly that is better for the economy and for many of these companies cuz

it's more profitable the more, if more people have to buy vehicles rather than

take the train or transit or buy a bike.

In part what we're seeing is how kind of economic incentives get in the way of

actually making things better and, and really having a truly sustainable policy

that improves mobility for, for everyone.

Erin: Mm.

I know in your book, Read To Nowhere, you argue that electric cars are not

a silver bullet for sustainability.

I loved that line.

Paris: Thank you.

Erin: I know you wrote an entire book about this, so it's probably

very hard to summarize, but could you share some of your main thoughts

around the concept of EVs as a means for mitigating the climate crisis?

Paris: Sure.

Yeah.

As I said, I think that they have a role to play, especially in a society like

Canada that has been built for the car.

We're not going to get rid of automobiles overnight or even at all.

And so my concern with the focus on electric vehicles and with treating

that as the means through which we address the transportation system's

contribution to climate change, we miss out on those possibilities to look at

transportation in a different way, right?

Rather than just you drive a car with an internal combustion

engine right now, in the future, you'll drive a car with a battery.

There's not much kind of vision there, right?

It's a very basic transition and it's still a transition that is very

resource intensive because while the electric vehicle, in most cases will

have a lower lifecycle emissions than an internal combustion vehicle, it

still does have a significant kind of contribution and emissions footprint

because you're still just a few people getting it, getting around in a

vehicle that weighs a few tons, right?

There's a lot of energy that's needed to propel that vehicle,

all that unnecessary weight.

But there's also a lot of minerals that are necessary to build the

batteries, to power those vehicles.

And what's presumed right now, The agencies who, who work on these

things like the International Energy Agency estimate, is that there

goes, there's gonna be a significant increase in demand for those minerals.

That's going to mean an increase in mining.

A lot of that mining happens in the global south where there's terrible

environmental consequences of that, but also human costs associated with it.

And there's also a growing push to expand that mining in the global north as well

in countries like Canada in particular.

And often that's going to mean consequences for indigenous communities

and remote communities in particular that don't often get listened to when

it comes to these sorts of consequences and economic development decisions.

And so that's kind of my concern with electric vehicles.

Yes, they have a role to play.

But do they have the size of the role that our government is currently

telling us they should play?

I think that there should be more of a focus on getting people out

of cars altogether rather than just on electrifying all the

cars that are on the road today.

Erin: So we need to broaden our imagination when we think about

future approaches to transportation.

If you could reimagine a transportation infrastructure that is more sustainable,

but also considers the needs of poor, marginalized, and vulnerable people and

there was, there were no barriers and you could just like snap your fingers

and we were in that future, what would that future look like here in Canada?

Paris: That, that's a tough one.

Right.

You know, there's kind of the, the utopian ideal that you'd want to achieve,

but then at the same time it's like,

Erin: what's realistic

. Paris: Exactly.

Does only thinking about the utopia really help us?

Right.

And certainly I think that there are some ways that, that it can, because it can,

it can show us what we should strive for.

And even if we don't get all the way, then, you know, as they say, shoot

for the moon and if you miss your, at least among the stars or whatever.

Right.

I ideally, you know, I think one of the things as I was saying that, that a lot

of kind of North American urbanists do is they look at cities in Europe and they

say, ah, you know, this is so perfect.

If we could just replicate that, everything would be great.

But then you think, you know, you, Europe has a different built, built environment

than many North American cities.

You know, their, their cities are still much more dense than many of ours

have become over this period of time.

And so does it make sense to totally structure what we're imagining

on, on how they've built things?

I would like to see a much greater investment in public transportation,

right, so that people have this option to get around in a different way.

And hopefully we can encourage people to get outta their cars to a much

greater degree than they can right now.

Investments in cycling of infrastructure so that our roads aren't just solely

given over to cars and that you can safely feel that you can ride a bike

to get at least to the main parts of a city, if not broader than that.

As e-bikes become more and more common, I think that they're really well

suited for the North American city because they allow you to move longer

distances in a quicker period of time.

And whereas in some European cities, I think that there have

been backlashes to e-bikes because of how quickly they can go.

I think that they can work really well in North American cities as long as we plan

for, you know, the recycling of batteries, the safety issues, things like that.

One of the things I, I would hope that we can learn from some European cities is

to reduce the space in our cities that's given over to cars so that we can turn

more of that space into pedestrianized areas, into parking for bikes, into bus

lanes, to reduce the incentive to, to have so many cars going around cities.

But as, as much as I would like it, I don't think that we're going to completely

eradicate the car from North American life, but I think that there are actions

that we can take, especially if we start today and start to see the benefits a

few years down the line, to actually allow more people to get outta their cars

and to get around in a reasonable way without having to think about driving.

Erin: And I must say, just bringing it back to tourism, that kind of future

I think is really amazing because it makes it more possible for people

to explore their own neighborhoods and explore their own province.

Um, and for visitors to do that as well.

Just makes like tourism more accessible for people as well.

Kattie: I will say too, as a traveler, like half the fun for me is wanting to go

somewhere and travel like the locals do.

Erin: Yeah, for sure.

That's like one of my favorite things to do when I'm abroad, like

go on the public transport cuz it's a way to immerse yourself.

It's the best way to explore a city.

I've said this before on the podcast, like my way of getting around

is often part an integral part of the actual travel experience.

Like when I travel to somewhere, that's something that I factor into

part of the experience of that city or country or region that I'm in.

And I've talked about this before, but in India, especially riding

trains, it's one of my most favorite memories about traveling there, just

because on the trains it was like you were part of a whole world that

just exists in those train cars.

And I could sit on those.

For hours on end just staring out the window and listening to people around me.

And it was just like a type of immersion that you don't get all the time as a

tourist that I really, really loved.

And I miss that.

Like when I think about going back to India, that's the thing I'm excited about.

I wanna go sit on the trains.

And I felt that way about like, everywhere that I've traveled, just going on

public transport is really beautiful

. Paris: Now I, I love that.

And like, part of the reason that, you know, I, I've spent quite a bit of time in

Australia and New Zealand, whereas in New Zealand it's still a pretty big country,

even though, you know, it might seem small from the corner of the map, but because

of the robust inner city bus system, I've taken buses all over the north

island, all down across the south island.

Like, you know, I've really been, throughout the country, I've visited a

lot of different places in New Zealand and it's because it was so easy to get around.

Erin: Yeah, Especially when I was younger and especially when I traveled solo, that

was a big part of how I decided where I would travel because I don't have a

license, I can't drive, and so I could only travel to places that were gonna

be accessible through public transport.

That's a big gripe for me in terms of Canada, just because truly the reason I

haven't seen a lot is because for most of my life I was unable to access these

places that I would love to go to, but just are only accessible by vehicle.

Before we wrap up, any exciting travel plans in the future

to promote your book, perhaps

Paris: Yeah.

Um, you know, as I said, I recently got back from Europe.

It was the first time I'd been on a plane since Covid.

And, you know, hotel prices are also higher and that, that's something

that's changed for me as well.

Before the pandemic, I stayed in hostels.

Most of the time when I, when I traveled, I, I typically travel by myself, but

now because of Covid, I, I won't stay in hostels anymore either to reduce the

risk that I'll, that I'll get Covid.

And so that certainly changed how I think about travel because now

it's more expensive because I have to pay for hotels and I don't do

air Airbnbs, like I don't do Ubers.

So, yeah.

You know, certainly some different considerations now as I try to

readjust to whatever this kind of life with Covid is, is gonna look like.

Erin: Mm-hmm.

, it's a complicated time to travel.

.Definitely more expensive.

I'm very sad that my love of hostels has been taken from me.

I wish you all the best with all your travels to promote the book.

I'm excited to read it.

Paris: Thank you so much.

You know, I, I really appreciate you having me on the show

to chat about these things.

You know, obviously I've done a lot of interviews that are, that are focused

on particular topics in the book, so it's been really cool to like,

go outside that a little bit, talk a little bit more about Canada, talk

about travel, which is something I've done a lot, but, but don't talk about

as much in my, in my work anymore.

Um, so yeah, it's been really great.

Thank you.

Erin: Thanks for listening to the show.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to share it with a fellow traveler.

Make sure you're following us on your favorite podcast app, and if you're

feeling extra generous, you can leave us a five star review or support us on Patreon.

Alpaca my Bags is written and hosted by me, Erin Hynes, and

it's produced and edited by Kattie Laur in Canada's Toronto area.

If you wanna reach out to us, check the show notes for all the info you need.

I'll see you in two weeks, but in the meantime, I hope you get to

alpaca your bags safely and soon.