Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove.

Melissa Thompson: What what's really nice about life...is like

all these things that you go through, they might frustrate

you or they might anger you, and you think, oh that's a bit shit.

But to be able to put that into a...into a book has been, like,

amazing.

Lucy Dearlove: When we're thinking about personal food

writing, what happens at the place where it intersects with

historical writing or political writing? And what about

permission? Who is granted permission to write whatever

they want? Melissa Thompson is a food writer I've admired for

years now. And her book, Motherland, came out last month.

It's a book of recipes for Jamaican food, some that Melissa

grew up eating with her family, some that she's learned from the

community around her in London from people like Maureen Tyne,

who cooks incredible food from her house in Brixton and some

that she's eaten on trips to Jamaica as an adult. Motherland

is also a book about the history of Jamaica, and Melissa weaves

this so elegantly with her own story in a way that it makes it

impossible for us to ignore the violent history of colonialism

and how it has to do with all of us in Britain. As you'll hear us

talk about, Melissa uses the physical walls of the Drax

estate in Dorset, where she grew up, to demonstrate how ingrained

Britain's colonial legacy is in the very fabric of our lives

here, and how it's mostly been buried. I also asked Melissa how

she approaches writing down recipes which are very personal

to her in a format which can be comprehensible and replicable by

anyone who buys her book or reads her writing. Is anything

lost or compromised in this process of translation? I went

round to record with Melissa at her house on one of those

freakishly hot summer heatwave days we had this year, where -

unbelievably, she deserves a medal for this - she cooked me

lunch.

So what you making?

Melissa Thompson: So I'm making...pepper prawns, and just

some. Yeah, some grilled corn. But I might take...I might do

grilled corn and make it into a salad.

Lucy Dearlove: Oh, lovely.

Melissa Thompson: Just like with a bit of...

Lucy Dearlove: Charred.

Melissa Thompson: Yeah, like with a bit of red onion.

Lucy Dearlove: Nice

Melissa Thompson: and stuff. I'm just thinking anything. That's

cold, but actually, that's not hot. Yeah, I might do that.

Actually.

Lucy Dearlove: Is this from the book?

Melissa Thompson: The prawns are, yeah, like pepper shrimp is

like a sort of classic. They are quite...do you like heat?

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah I mean, I don't want to like you know, you

know, when you're like...you get really cocky about it?

Melissa Thompson: Yes!

Lucy Dearlove: As a white person I'm always like, yeah, I can

handle it. And then I always...Yeah. Cos I do like

heat but there's a relativity there.

Melissa Thompson: Exactly. Yeah. It's like how hot Exactly. And

that's the hardest thing to quantify.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. Yeah. Just never know what someone else's

tolerance is gonna be.

Melissa Thompson: Yeah. So I'll do some I'll do some plantain.

Lucy Dearlove: Great. Yeah.

Melissa Thompson: Yeah?

Lucy Dearlove: Love plantain.

Melissa Thompson: So my book is called Motherland. And it is

about ...t's a cookbook, a Jamaican cookbook, that also

details the history of Jamaica to kind of put the food within

the context of Jamaica's history. And it's quite cool.

Because it's a book that I was looking for, for a long time. I

kept on ordering books, wanting it to be this. And it didn't

exist. And that the closest is Provisions by the Rousseau

sisters in America.

Lucy Dearlove: OH, I don't know that. Okay, cool.

Melissa Thompson: I've got it down there. You can have a look

if you want. Yeah, yeah, obviously, the kind of the

African American experience is so much different, although

that's kind of African American, Caribbean, like Jamaican, which

is something else. But they kind of talk about more about their

family. And their kind of grandmother, I mean, it's an

amazing book. And so to be able to write this...the whole thing

has been a bit of a dream, because I think my agent got in

touch with me on the back of my BBC Good Food column. And then I

had met a publisher at a supper club, and she was like, oh, you

know, like, what's exciting in the world of food at the moment?

And I think I said to her, I'll think about it and I was

like...Rangoon Sisters! and she was like, Yeah, we know about

them already. And obviously their book, their book then came

out, and then I was thinking about it, and we kind of like

ended up following each other on Instagram and a while but while

later I emailed her about someone else who I thought it'd

be good to write a book

Lucy Dearlove: But at this point, you weren't putting

yourself forward?

Melissa Thompson: No, no,

Lucy Dearlove: Very classic you I feel like

Melissa Thompson: I just like it wasn't like...really?

Lucy Dearlove: I just feel like you're...my impression that I

have from you it's just that you are so...you are like the most

important supportive person, like you were always lifting

other people up like so. That sounds very characteristic from

what I know about you to meet an editor and be like you should

publish all these other people's book rather than being like I

actually really want to write one.

Melissa Thompson: Well, yeah, yeah, she was like, thanks for

that. Have you thought about doing it? And I was like, I

dunno! Well...actually...

Lucy Dearlove: And had you thought about it?

Melissa Thompson: I had ideas, I had ideas, and but I just didn't

think, I didn't think I was there yet. And it's what...this

is why this whole process has been so interesting, because you

have...in a way, it's almost frustrating, because obviously,

the way that everything happens sequentially, like you get a

column, you know, and then you get approached, you know, and

then you end up getting commissioned. And obviously,

like, I could have written this book, you know, three years ago,

yeah, like before, before I got I got the column and everything

in a way, that's quite frustrating, because, and that's

why you say about, like, lifting other people up. And for me,

it's almost like, it's, I think it's born out of frustration,

because it's like, there are all these amazing people. And a lot

of kind of, like white people, you know, I mean, like, I'll

just be like, straight, a lot of white people get access to

publishing easily. And it's not to say that they're not good,

but obviously, they can. And they can write about whatever

they want in like with whatever food they want, whether it's

related to their own culture or not. Whereas for black people,

and brown people, it's been a lot harder...and people, I

think, from East and Southeast Asia. I think some of the most

exciting, like Southeast Asian restaurants right now are... the

head chef, it's a white person, or it's been founded by white

person. And so now that I'm kind of in the system, it's like, oh,

right, that's how it works. Because I don't I didn't know, I

mean, I've been a journalist for like, what, almost 15 years or

something. But I still don't know how...I didn't know how it

works. I think I said before, like I wrote, it's hard to know,

it's hard to know, like, how to dance. If you don't know, the

moves or something. I can't remember how I phrased it. But

it's like, it's almost like it's quite secretive. And then

actually, you get in it. And it's like, alright, this is how

it works. That's why I'm just like, everyone. So I've been

trying to get quite a few people that I know, and just tried to

get them, whether it's connecting them with my agent,

or just like trying to, like plant the seed, like you can

write a book. And you should be the person writing a book about

this cuisine, because yeah, you know it, and you're good at it.

And so yes, that's where that comes from.

Lucy Dearlove: Even now, I don't know, the industry is maybe

broadening a little bit in terms of what gets commissioned. And

but I think you're still so right about, like, whitw people

can write about anything? Yes. And I think there's also a sense

of like, Oh, we've got one of those already, when it comes to

like specific cuisines, and there's like less of an

understanding of like, what different people's perspectives

can bring?

Melissa Thompson: Yes.

Lucy Dearlove: Like, you know, for example, yeah, your book is

about the history of Jamaica. But it's about the history of

Jamaica, from your perspective.

Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes

Lucy Dearlove: Which is why, you know, you could easily have

another book about the history of Jamaica from someone else's

perspective and that would also be great.

Lucy Dearlove: Exactly! Yeah, West Winds, also, like

Melissa Thompson: Yeah. Well look at Riaz's book!

completely different book. Great to have them both, like they

both...there's space for both of them and space for more of them.

Melissa Thompson: Yeah there is space for both of them, and

there's space to, there's space for plenty more, as well. And

this is the, I don't know, I think things are getting are

getting better. And it's exciting speaking to people who

are, you know, doing amazing things, there are a few

cookbooks that are kind of due to come out, which I'm really

excited for. And I hope it's just the beginning. And I think

yeah, I think what you say about it being a...like, this is just

my perspective, obviously, my perspective growing up in the

UK. And you know, what Jamaican food means to me, how I cook

Jamaican food. And and I guess, you know, the further away it

gets from...it gets from Jamaica, and it's always going

to be like, I guess an interpretation of it. I think

that's really beautiful. I think a lot of people now view the,

like, the food culture, they almost don't realize that we're

part of like a continuum. And this is part of the evolution of

food, which is going to happen forever, rather than this is an

endpoint. And so I think it's quite exciting. It just needs to

be done...I think with respect, really,

Lucy Dearlove: totally. And I think it's also about

understanding that. Like, there isn't a definitive, there isn't

necessarily a definitive history of any one particular thing.

Like it's always written from someone's perspective.

Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes.

Lucy Dearlove: Whether or not we know who that person is, if that

makes sense. Like, no, history is entirely objective. But like,

you know, just for example, there's a bit in your book where

you write about seeing the wall of is it the Drax Estate? Yes.

in Dorset, which is where you grew up? Yes. And then later

coming to understand that that wall was the wall of an estate

that belonged to a slave owning family. Yes. And like what,

which is still a very powerful family today. And for me, like

that was just so...like, you don't hear those details. Don't

talk about how the actual, like physical architecture and the

political system of this country is linked to the enslavement of

African people. Yeah, we just don't talk about that like in

Melissa Thompson: Yeah, and it's everywhere. Well, this is it. I

that way.

mean, like, and obviously that realisation, because when I was

working on the local paper in Dorset, and it was, I think it

was like the, it must have been the...it was a 250 years or 200

years since the sort of abolishment of slavery. And at

the time, I remember trying to, I don't think it was public

knowledge that the Drax family were linked to slavery. So I was

trying to find out so I did quite a lot about it. And then I

think that came to pass a bit later after I'd left there. And

I remember like he got...I'm not sure if Richard Drax had been

made the MP of South Dorset at the time but I remember him

walking into the Echo offices, and I was with the receptionist

and they were really cool women, they were really funny. And they

were sort of bit older. And he walked, he walked in, and then

he kind of I think he went to a meeting or something. They like,

Oh, he's such a silver fox like this. And, um, but I was just

like, I mean, obviously, like, he's not...like, it wasn't him.

But it's kind of the whole thing is a bit. It's quite icky. I

mean, he's never really, I mean, what do you do? What do I want?

I don't want him to say sorry for it. But I think it'd be

quite nice to have some sort of acknowledgement or some sort of

distancing. A lot of people were like, oh, but that was back in

the day. And it's like, yeah, but

Lucy Dearlove: But they're still really they are still...

Melissa Thompson: Benefitting. Hugely

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, they're still benefitting from that

system. Like, you can't deny that. No, it's a physical fact

that their wealth comes from that system.

Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes. Yes. And where are we? You know,

like, there is no kind of, like, inherited inherited wealth. Like

for...yeah, my parents were really skint. I mean, they kind

of like pushed themselves up. And now they're doing all right.

And I guess, you know, like, I think I'm at the stage,

hopefully, where my daughter will have some sort of, but it's

still like, yeah, we're almost starting from scratch. I tell

you what, though, it was quite nice to be able to...like all of

these things, what what's really nice about life is like, all

these things that you go through, they might frustrate

you, or they might anger you. And you think, oh it's a bit

shit. But to be able to put that into a into a book has been like

amazing, or like talk about Christopher Columbus, my dad

just getting really annoyed anytime someone mentioned his

name. And it's like, Dad, I've been able to put that in a book.

And he's like, yeah, he's just quite. Yeah, he's quite, he's

quite happy with that.

Lucy Dearlove: Because obviously, it is a book that is,

has this like sort of universe, like almost universal history

that is relevant to anyone really, because it's a history

that we all should know about. And then it is also very

personal book. So I guess like, where did you choose to kind of

draw those boundaries? Like, was there stuff that you chose not

to include? Like, how did you like, how did you choose what to

include from the history?

Melissa Thompson: Well this is why it was so hard. Because it

was it was so much information and the research, I loved the

research because there were a lot of things that I kind of

knew, almost by hearsay, and then to go and find them, like

in kind of the like contemporaneous text was mind

blowing, it was it was like, Oh, my God it was like striking

gold. And then I had to, I had, like, you know, collate all that

information and then put it into it, put it into an essay, and,

and also I've been talking about, you know, who gets to

write the history? It was, you know, like, was it is the

victors that get to...I put this anatto in, but it's almost like

gone....

Lucy Dearlove: Oh, is that what that smell is? Yes, it almost

smells like Sichuan peppercorn. Yeah. It's like a, like a very

fragrant.

Melissa Thompson: Yes. It's sort of the oil went red and then

now, I think scos we've been talking so long it's lost it's

colour, yeah, I've not seen that before.. It's kind of I don't

know, like, even as, as a writer, and as a journalist,

it's like, there was it was just the hardest thing I've ever I've

ever had to write because it was, it was a series of essays.

Yeah. Then also that had to stand alone, but then also sort

of interplay with each other. Yeah. And so I think I just, you

know, I, like, you know, when you're, when you're a writer,

you get quite good at sort of, like having to be brutal to get

something down to a word count. And so then it was just a case

of like, as I reread it, like, you know, however, many millions

of times I read those words, like, is this adding anything to

the story? Or is it adding, like, like, because everything,

in my opinion, added something, but it was like, What can I take

out? You know, like, again, sorry, I started saying that

about who gets to write the history? A lot of it, you know,

the indigenous Jamaicans didn't have a written language. Yeah,

so, and yeah, there are a few artifacts...I mean bizarrely in

the Horniman they've got but I'm not sure where it is, but it's a

Taino thing for extracting the juice from cassava. grated

cassava for the bammy. I've got bammy by the way. We were gonna

have fried fish Escovitch but then I couldn't go to the fish

manga.

Oh, great. I've never had bammy before.

Okay, so I wouldn't normally serve it with this but it's

quite nice. So it's just soaking in. In coconut milk. Cool. These

are I bought them back from Jamaica. It's amazing. I went to

go and see bammy. Did you see in the in the book the bit about

the bammy? Yeah. I've got one more left and this little fly

from Jamaica! It's like Jurassic Park or something!

Lucy Dearlove: Better not let it defrost. Just in case.

Why did you call it Motherland?

Melissa Thompson: Well, I wanted to call it Fatherland at first.

Okay. And then and then Kate was like, Oh...it was a working

title. And I went to quit fatherland, and Kate was like,

That's a bit weird why don't you just call it motherland. I was

like, Okay. And then afterwards, like months later, and I was

like, oh no, because Fatherland, cos that's where my dad's from

and she was like, oh right! But I hadn't explained at the time

and then also I think motherland as well, because it's like, it's

it's the Motherland you don't I mean, and it's like, it's, I

think, like this idea of, of like giving life but that like,

I don't know I think especially with Jamaica's history it's kind

of it was so like a lot of it'a so violent, so brutal, but I

don't know like I think motherland almost sounds quite

optimistic. And kind of, like life life like life giving

really. And, you know, I think despite everything people

survived, like people survived what what the Europeans were

doing to them? And I think it's like a trice. It's a, it's a

triumph.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, that makes sense. I wondered if it was a

nod to because when Britain colonised Jamaica, they caught

they called itself its motherland, right? It was known

as the motherland. And that was really fucked up. So I did also

feel like that's kind of an interesting little ironic nod.

And that kind of ties into what you're saying that like survival

through that, like, despite being given this, like,

inappropriate mother.

Melissa Thompson: yes. I mean, it's not. And then people came

here thinking that people are gonna be though, like, greeting

them with open arms. And

Lucy Dearlove: yeah, which is kind of the most horrible,

almost not the most horrible thing about it all, but just

such another horrible detail? Yes. Yes. About the how they

were misled over that.

Melissa Thompson: Yeah. And people just like spitting at

them in the street and stuff like that. And it's crazy. You

know, I wish I could have had that conversation with my

grandparents, whether they would have told me I don't know. But

yeah, about what it was really, like, I'm so glad I got to

write, I got to write this book. Like, I'm sorry, I still find it

kind of a bit mad, that I got to write it. But I'm so glad that I

did. Because just what I've learned, and and you know, these

things that you kind of take for you sort of not that I've taken

for granted, but things that I've sort of thought, oh, maybe

you know, like, I think that to have a bit of authority about

something is just quite nice. A lot of things that I thought

were the case and be able to actually well, yeah, they were

the case. And I've got the evidence. I mean, the whole

narrative around indigenous people in the Americas. And, you

know, I grew up thinking it was just all because of, like

diseases that people didn't have immunity to. And while that was

true, like the Spanish were horrific, like there was

Lucy Dearlove: never heard that either.

Melissa Thompson: And, I mean, you were asking about, like,

what to include what to put in, I could have kept on going with

examples of what they did. But I had to just kind of like Stop

it, you know, because it's just like, it's just, it's a bit

much. And this is where, you know, I like to have another

book about I don't know, I guess I'm not sure that anyone is

going to want to include any any more of that into into a cookery

book, but to be able to add any more of the history. Because

it's kind of, I guess, there will be other elements that

people will that people maybe want to focus on. And I think

sometimes less is more, right? Because, because also I don't

want people to become desensitized to it. So it's just

like, right. Here's like, here's, I hope this is enough.

Take it and, you know, because because otherwise, I think it

just becomes a bit. Yeah, like it's just actually, ultimately

this is a cookbook. Yeah, a cookbook with a with a history.

And yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: Did you always know you wanted it to have that

much history in it? Was that very much part of the pitch?

Melissa Thompson: Yeah, yeah, totally. And yeah, like that was

really important to me. I'm sorry, this is taking...I always

do this.

Lucy Dearlove: This always happens when I record with

people cooking, it just ends up completely derailing the

process. Entirely. My responsibility

Melissa Thompson: is because it's me trying to multitask,

which is just my Yeah,

Lucy Dearlove: it's you trying to answer like quite in depth

questions while also making a recipe. So we've got the we've

got the corn in the pan now though.

Melissa Thompson: Yeah, so the corn 's sizzling, I'm trying to

like, try and get a bit of colour to that. And then I'm

gonna take the kernels off, and then I'm about to like, devein

these prawns?

Lucy Dearlove: Okay. And they're beautiful big prawns

Melissa Thompson: Yeah, they're right on No, yeah, they come

from they come from the supermarket, unfortunately.

Lucy Dearlove: Oh, throw them out. Something that really

struck me when I was reading the book was that it feels like and

please correct me if I'm wrong, but it feels like there's a very

strong oral tradition in Jamaican foods. How do you go

about making that translation?

Melissa Thompson: Oh man. Yeah, I'm glad I'm glad you asked me

this, because I think it's, it's, it's quite an important

thing. Like there's a lot of talk at the moment with recipes,

especially I think, sort of recipes from like, like from

across the Caribbean, I think across Africa, across South or

in fact across all of Asia about how like you know, trying to get

recipes from from typically your mom your grandma because it's

usually the women right? And, and this idea of people being

like, oh, you know, you do a handful of this and or like a

pinch of this and it's like...what a handful like my

hands are different sizes and It's like, and it's almost

framed in this, like, with with this frustration, but actually,

I think it's the most beautiful thing because it's, it's that

connection to that person. And, and also it makes cooking like

an intuitive process rather than kind of a prescriptive process

process. And, you know, I guess we lose that. And like, over

over time, and as kind of generations, I guess, get, I

don't know, this, like kind of less of this, like the family

unit that sort of spans generations. But and so I think

actually, the kind of the oral tradition is is really lovely.

And, and it's not when my when my grandma taught me how to make

the curry chicken recipe. She didn't use any, any any things.

It was just like, you just put this like, you know, you'd like

to sort of sprinkle a curry powder and you just, you can

tell that it's right. I mean, when I was doing my pop up and I

was doing like I was doing like a lot of karage chicken like I

never wrote the recipe I could just smell it and know when it

was Yeah. And I dread to think how many, like, you know, like

tons of chicken thighs when I cooked over the years. And I

could just smell when it was right when the combination was

right. And I think usually what that was saying about Maureen

down in Brixton. Now she doesn't like none of her recipes are

written down. And yeah, she's cooking for service. And she's

also cooking for like catering and stuff. And yeah, recipes.

None of our recipes are written down. Because it's never been

part of her thing to write it down. Like she just know, she

can tell she can look at it by the smell of it. Yeah. And I

think you kind of lose that. It's like with like, writing a

jerk recipe down...in the jerk recipe. And like if you have

pimento...let me see if I've got some...

Lucy Dearlove: Is this your spice cupboard?

Melissa Thompson: Yes. Yeah, I bought back.

Lucy Dearlove: Oh, wow. Yes. Oh, very organized, very organized.

Melissa Thompson: I got a label maker for Christmas. Oh, great.

It's like the best thing I've ever received. So these pimento

berries are from... the smell has kind of like lessened a bit.

Yeah, that's Oh, wow. And but then you smell this? And I think

this is from this country, I bought this for a recipe. Oh,

yes. No, it's completely different. It's all spice

because people were like, oh, so I bought back so much from

Jamaica and the car just stunk of cloves. Because that's why

it's all spice. Right? And because it's like, what cloves

nutmeg, nutmeg and cinnamon, like there are so many different

jerk recipes out there. But then, and some of them call for

like cinnamon and nutmeg. And like, I don't know this for

certain, but I almost think that maybe that was because if you

had pimento, that was that had been, you know, sitting on a

supermarket shelf for a long time it loses those other notes.

Yeah, and so people make it up. So what I've said, in the

cookbook, I'm like smell your pimento. And if you can smell

clove and everything in it, then just have the pimento berries.

But otherwise, add like clove and nutmeg and cinnamon to your

jerk marinade. I mean, it's still gonna taste delicious,

like however people do it. But it's this thing where it's quite

difficult to put something down for definite and it's just the

hope that people will use that as a start off points and, and

adjust it because I mean recipes will have been adjusted forever.

Lucy Dearlove: Of course, I really liked...so it's like a

It was just to get around with this this thing. Yeah.

separate little note to the recipe that you're talking about

in the jerk recipe where you write about the using the

different spices if you need to. And I just really liked how that

And that's that's related to the oral tradition as well. Right?

almost gives. It's almost like asking the reader to take a bit

of control, which I think is...you might lose in a sense.

Like, you don't have that much control when you're reading a

recipe or you're cooking a recipe that someone else has

Because that would just be...it might not necessarily be a

written. But it's almost like you're giving permission to

people to be like, make your own call. Yeah, like, yeah, and this

problem in Jamaica. So people wouldn't do it. Yes. Or Yes. You

might be how you like it. Yeah, you know, you might find out how

you like it, you might want you might like it with the extra

know, you might know to do that if you've watched people cooking

cloves, like, you know, I really liked that about it, it felt

really unusual. Like I just didn't, I don't know if I'd seen

a note before and I really liked it.

the recipe before. Yes. So it's a way of kind of giving people

that information in like a non prescriptive way. Yeah, I guess.

Yeah,

Melissa Thompson: totally. And also, I think whenever people,

you know, if a cook... if they're cooking, a sort of a

nation's dish, a nation's food for the first time, they might

not feel that confident, because if elements are unfamiliar, but

then, you know, trying to, I guess guide people to to you

know, how ingredients should taste and use more of your

senses to kind of to get to understand it and to make a

judgment call yourself,

Lucy Dearlove: like when you came to be writing down these

recipes that have, you know, a lot of personal significance for

you. Did the format of a written recipe feel adequate for

translating kind of what you wanted to say about that recipe?

Melissa Thompson: I think it's, I think this is why I went into

feature writing rather than news because like brevity has never

been my strong point. I think almost I want to be like, Oh,

but you know, it's like this, then it's like that. And I

think, I don't know, maybe like it'd be, it'd be quite nice to

do it as an audiobook or something where I can be like,

but you know, there's sort of so many

Lucy Dearlove: That would be so nice.

Melissa Thompson: You know, I mean, just like be able to.

Yeah, I think it's I think there are a lot of reasons why sort of

maybe that there have been fewer books written about Jamaican

foods. I mean, mainly it's because the gatekeepers haven't

permitted it. But then also, I think that it's actually the

biggest reason I also think there is a bit of a thing from

within within communities. There's like a kind of

understandable protectiveness about it. And I think actually,

for a lot of the people who are doing cookbooks for the first

not for the first time it we're doing cookbooks. I mean, there's

Do you know, Maria? Maria Bradford? Shwen Shwen?

Lucy Dearlove: Oh, no, I don't know her

Melissa Thompson: Oh, God. So I spoke to her for something. And

she's, so she's doing a cookbook about she's in Sierra Leonean

cookbook is coming out next year. And I'm so excited for it.

Like we talked about the responsibility that comes with

it, because it's one cookbook, I mean, this is the thing, my

book, it's one cookbook for a cuisine that is that is like

huge with so many different influences. When there are 20,

it doesn't matter. But when there are fewer, it does matter.

And I don't think there's been...so Maria was saying that

she doesn't think there's there's been any Sierra Leonian

cookbooks published in the UK. Wow. And so like, the pressure

for that also, she's so kind of, she's so she's so brilliant. She

was like, you know, and she was like, you know, I will like

fucking buy a book about like, Italian food and I will fucking

go out of my way. You know, she was like, it's about time that

you fucking did it with our, with our food as well. Go and

find cassava leaf. Go and find potato leaf like speak to people

find out like, you know, like, explore go and fucking get it

because that people have bottarga ina fucking recipe no

one billet like, like, you know, things are what's the that's an

eye. But then you have Yeah, like color cassava leaf and

stuff like that. Like and people just, um, I can't you know,

like, what, what can I use instead, can I use spinach just

like, and I think as people who enjoy foods, there's like an

assumption that they are going to be kind of inquisitive. And

like, oh, yeah, all of the things I think that make people

interested in food. So actually go and be inquisitive and go,

you know, it's not just about reading a book, but it's about

going and actually immersing yourself in that culture. Going

to go into the shops and, and just familiarizing and people

like, the thing about one thing I can say about foods and food

people is that they love sharing, and, you know, talking

to people about stuff, and it's just like, it's just, it's it's

yeah, it's like it's quite exciting.

Lucy Dearlove: And so in the book there, I mean, you've

mentioned Maureen already, but kind of there's a lot of recipes

in the book that haven't just come from your family. They've

come from sort of like chosen family. Yes. So could you talk a

bit about the recipes you've included in the book from

different people that you've learned over the years?

Melissa Thompson: So yeah, so it's like a combination? Well,

and some things are like, so I moved to London for uni at 20.

And so that kind of, because okay, I guess everyone's got

their repertoire, right. So we'd have, we'd have our thing.

Lucy Dearlove: And then what was your repertoire?

Melissa Thompson: Well, it was like, carry go. Curry chicken.

oxtail. Like patties. Because if you go to like, if you go to

like a sort of any kind of, like celebration, or like funeral or

something, like there's always gonna be the same thing. Your

fried fish, fried chicken. Ackee and saltfish, obviously, all

different dumplings. And then you kind of add to it as you go.

I was like, you know, we're coming to London and eating at

sort of, like, invariably takeaways, yeah, because there

are kind of loads of Caribbean restaurants. Yeah, restaurants.

Yeah. And then your repertoire kind of, sort of widens further.

But then also, I think, I like Akwasi Brenya-Mensa, I did a

talk with him in in, in Belfast. And he was saying that when

you're, when you're cooking cuisine outside of the country

of origin, you're only ever doing a version of it. And I

thought that was really I thought that was really

interesting. Way to, yeah, to view it because it's, it's, it's

kind of true, right? And it's like, I mean, going back to the

whole ingredients as well and being true to ingredients. I

think, as much as I think it's important that I think I would

say with like talking about Sierra Leonean cuisine, there

are certain dishes that can only be made with cassava leaf,

right? You can't there isn't there is no substitution, you're

not gonna get the flavour for that. But then there are other

things where, you know, I don't want people especially if people

can't afford it, like I don't want money to be something

that's going to... so if something Yeah, you know, it's

something can be bought cheap or like, rather than someone having

to go out and buy ingredients that they might not use all the

time. Like, is there anything there are some things that you

have to eat like you can only make this if you if you use this

then having that kind of flexibility. The the Scotch

bonnet fumes! For me the whole idea of like decolonizing like

food writing and stuff is moving away from this kind of like

Francophone kind of, like, on my, on the cookbook sheet I was

with, with Melek. And so it was like Benjamin Ebuehi the was the

economist and Melek was her assistant. It was amazing.

Because obviously, Patsy was taking the pictures...Patricia

Niven. Yes. Yeah. And so kind of, and I really like it. I

really wanted to like, because I think Patricia, Patsy, Benji and

Jen, Kay, who did the props, like their aesthetic is sort of

like a soul, sort of separate aesthetics are so complimentary,

that they've never worked together. And so then they kind

of yeah, all came together. And it was just, it was such a

dream. But then Melek and I were talking about just like the

language and that kind of like, you know, we're not we're not

julienning our vegetables. We are cutting them into matchday

matchsticks. And it's this, and I read this thing, I don't think

I think it was true about this person. It's like the language

and how language can be a massive barrier when you're

talking about food because you just don't get it. And and there

was this thing about toss, like toss a salad. So someone

literally tossed the salad like, because they just didn't I mean,

what does that what does that mean to toss a, you know, to

toss a salad or, and as a restaurant writer, it's so easy

to, to use this like to repeat this language. Because when you

get to understand it, but you know, I still don't know what

broil means. I know that's an American term, but I don't know

what it means.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, I hadn't even thought about julienne as

like a bastion of French cookery.

Melissa Thompson: But yeah. To saute, All of it, like all of

it, you know? Yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. I think it's really, it's really

interesting to talk about, like decolonizing work in that

context, because I think sometimes people kind of hear

the word and they assume it's going to be this huge, like,

dramatic process of reckoning. And it's like, yeah, it should

be that as well. But I will say like, a lot of it does come down

to these very simple things. That might not seem that big on

the surface of it, but actually, go so deep, we don't even

realise yeah, like the language.

Melissa Thompson: Yes. I mean, to be honest, I don't often

because it's like a word that I hear come up so much these days.

And I try not to use it too much myself, because I think it can

almost, but I'd rather talk about it as like what it is,

rather than naming it. Like it was in practical terms. I know.

Because I've said it sort of now.

Lucy Dearlove: No, but it Yeah, in the context of No, I think

that makes sense.

Melissa Thompson: I'm using bottled lemon juice only for

speed. Yeah. So this is actually say, because you're talking

about Helen Graves. So I cooked from her book over the weekend.

Oh, it's so good. It's so good. Well, it's from hers and

Genevieve Taylor's

Lucy Dearlove: Oh, yeah. So you posted those. Another barbecue

book? Yes,

Melissa Thompson: yes. Is and so this is her charred spring

onion. Salsa. So I'm gonna pour this over the salad

Lucy Dearlove: Delicious

Melissa Thompson: this is just made up basically.

Lucy Dearlove: So we've got diced red onion, diced

cucumbers, some parsley and you've got the corn that you've

charred and then like cut off the cob and this charred spring

onion salsa.

Melissa Thompson: Thank you very much. Okay, well, I'll do this.

And then I'm gonna attempt those pina coladas would be nice if I

did it at the same time.

Lucy Dearlove: Oh, that's right. Honestly, like I just I can't

express enough my gratitude for you cooking in this weather.

Melissa Thompson: I love I love it. And now that I've got a bit

of time to think I'm I'm really relishing.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, cuz cooking must have just felt like worked.

Well, it was work. Yeah.

Melissa Thompson: I just didn't, I didn't cook really. And so

I've just got back into I mean whenever you know people talk

about like cooking for cooking for joy and stuff. And if you

don't if you're not happy then like it sort of translates into

the food and I really believe in that and when I, after I had my

daughter when I was pregnant with her I stopped doing my pop

up and then I didn't really cook for a long time because I I just

didn't really had I didn't have I was just I wasn't really

feeling anything and and so then it was actually during lockdown.

I started cooking again, so it was really nice to...

Lucy Dearlove: Does Kate cook?

Melissa Thompson: Yes, she does. But she always says she doesn't

even get a chance anymore. But that's absolute bollocks cos

she's really busy. So she gets home quite late. We will I think

we both moan about stuff, but then actually wouldn't really

want it to be that different.

Lucy Dearlove: classic I think that's that's a sign that it's a

good balance. Yeah, yeah, you can both have a moan but

ultimately,

Melissa Thompson: Do you cook a lot?

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, I'm the cook in my household and Rory,

my husband is...And this is this has been a sort of bone of

contention over the years that I'm a real backseat cook. So he

really understandably does not like that, we've kind of got to

the point where like, he will cook but I'm not allowed to come

and quote unquote, help. I had just I just have to stay away

and then do the clearing up.

Melissa Thompson: Why? Cuz you're literally saying stuff to

him.

Lucy Dearlove: Because I'll just be like, maybe like, I think a

drop of water while you're cooking those or like, it might

just be better if he's like, NO, get out. And that means that

sometimes he makes something and I would have cooked it

differently. And I just have to I just have to shut the fuck up.

Yes, yes. Yes. Also, it doesn't matter. You know, it doesn't

matter. No, not. Not everything has to be perfect. Also, my

cooking isn't perfect. But yeah, yeah, I do really I do really

enjoy cooking.

Melissa Thompson: When...Kate made when when we were first

dating, actually. And she made this. She made this teriyaki

salmon. And so she still talks about this about my reaction to

it. I was like, did it come from a packet? And I meant that in

a....cos it was so good. Yeah, it was really good. She, she's

never like, let me live that down.

Lucy Dearlove: Ya know, I can see how that's very well, meant

because it's like saying, you know, this is really good

packet. You can never be for me. You can never be Heinz ketchup.

So yeah, if someone made homemade ketchup and it tasted

like Heinz, I'd be like, Oh my god. It was like Heinz.

Melissa Thompson: So you're like a Heinz for ketchup?

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, that's my favourite. I accept no

substitutes. But Hellmans mayonnaise. Or kewpie. Yeah, um,

depending on what it's for.

Melissa Thompson: Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm because I like

ketchup. I can be a bit more. I think I used to be quite like,

sort of strict about it. But then there are a few others that

I accept, like I quite like a Tiptree ketchip/

Lucy Dearlove: saying oh, I have that one is good. Actually. I

have tried that. Yeah, but yeah, I haven't gotten like a fancy

cafe. Okay, nice. Yeah. Are you a ketchup or brown sauce? Oh,

Melissa Thompson: in a household. It will definitely be

ketchup. I like I like brown sauce. But no laughing like he

has become obsessed with with ketchup. She's so fickle. She's

gonna get like there was a time where I know she couldn't get

enough. And now she Yeah, now she likes. I know. She's sort of

a bit nice. I might drink some ketchup. Okay, do you want any

rum in this?

Lucy Dearlove: why not? It's

Melissa Thompson: it's after 12 Exactly it's practically evening

practically Yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: Gotta take all the all the help we can get in

this weather as well. Yes. Oh my god. Amazing. So is that just

pineapple blended with coconut milk and then some ice?

Melissa Thompson: I didn't have any decoration unfortunately.

Lucy Dearlove: I hink I'll live

Melissa Thompson: Ok so bammy and then I think we're done

aren't we

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. So you've just fried that.

Melissa Thompson: Yeah so it's, I soak it in coconut milk. And

then and then I fry it. Yes. I love it. I love it so much like

going to see the bammy place. It was so cool. It was always the

dream. So you got red onion, cucumber, the charred corn a bit

of red pepper. And then so parseyand the charred spring

onion salsa from the weekend from Helens book,

Lucy Dearlove: and remind me what's on these poems.

Melissa Thompson: So they're pepper drawn so it's it's like

annato, scotch bonnet, onion, garlic, and a bit of pimento.

Lucy Dearlove: Recipe in Motherland.

Melissa Thompson: Yes, yes.

Lucy Dearlove: Thanks so much to Melissa Thompson. Her book,

Motherland is out now. I wanted to make sure that before ending

this episode, I just said explicitly what a force for

change Melissa has been and continues to be in food. As I

made the point early on in our conversation, she tirelessly

uplifts other people within the industry. As her platform grows

she only seems to do this with more enthusiasm. She's

uncompromising, but she's also somehow enduringly positive and

optimistic in her approach. I can't wait to see what she does

in the future. This was the third episode in this month's

Micro Series about personal food writing. You can listen to the

other episodes, one with Rebecca May Johnson and Angela Hui and

one with Thea Lenarduzzi on the podcast feed now. And there's a

fourth bonus Patreon episode to come which is specifically about

recipes in personal writing. Melissa and I talked a bit about

this in this episode. So there's more from her and there's more

from it. Everyone else has been the series so far. Like it is

listener funded. So patrons subscriptions are really

important. You can sign up patreon.com/leckerpodcast. Music

is by Blue Dot sessions and you haven't got long to wait until

the next like episode. There's a trailer coming later this week

for the new series that's launching very very soon. Make

sure you're subscribed for that and I will be back in your feed

very soon.