Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove. I don't know

if it's an after effect of the publishing industry dealing with

two years of lockdowns or some other reason. But there's been

an avalanche of incredible books published recently. And

particularly books of personal and memoir writing related to

food. But what does it mean to write a food memoir or to be an

author of personal food writing in 2022? This month, I've got

three episodes lined up for you. Interviews with the writers of

some of my favorite food writing of recent times, beginning with

this one.

Angela Hui: It's just such an exposing thing. I think with

memoir writing.

Rebecca May Johnson: I was in denial about memoir until I

started writing. And then I realized that like memoir was a

really big aspect of it and drawing on life.

Angela Hui: Part of yourself is out there. And other people know

so much about you.

Rebecca May Johnson: To do that you have to be able to write

about yourself in some way. And that is really hard.

Angela Hui: And when my brother read it, he was just saying

like, Oh, this is just like a fraction. This is like the PG

friendly version!

Rebecca May Johnson: I wanted to give that attention, that

intellectual attention that I've been giving so long to

literature...to cooking.

You have to be your own type of freaky clown.

Angela Hui: You kinda, you do!

Lucy Dearlove: On this episode, Angela Hui and Rebecca May

Johnson. Angela Hui and Rebecca MayJohnson are responsible for

two of my favourite books of the year. Angela's book Takeaway is

a memoir based on her experiences growing up in her

family's Chinese takeaway in the Welsh Valleys. And Rebecca's

book Small Fires, is an "electrifying innovative memoir,

where she rewrites the kitchen as a vital source of knowledge

and revelation". I was with Angela and Rebecca a few months

ago, and they started talking to each other about the writing of

their books. And I rudely interrupted them to ask if

they'd be up for postponing the conversation so I could record

it for Lecker. They very generously agreed. And so a few

weeks ago, Angela and I got the train to Harwich to where

Rebecca lives and recorded it.

Just to mention, before we start, if you haven't read one

or both of the books, and you're planning to, there is some

discussion of key events and kind of sections in the books.

So if you prefer to be spoiler free, then I recommend you read

before listening to this. And also a content note: that is

some mentioned in passing of domestic abuse and gambling

addiction, as well as racism, as these themes present in Angela's

book.

I started by asking both Angela and Rebecca, if they had read

any personal or memoir writing centred around food while

writing their books or beforehand, and what impact it

had left on them.

Angela Hui: I don't know. I'm trying to think like...st the

end of my book, I wrote a like a reading list, which I thought

really helped, that's kind of just like the research that I

did throughout and I feel like, I felt like it was just more as

a way of like, respecting others, like this is what I

read. And it was almost like acknowledging those that came

before me that also helped. I'm gonna have a little look. But it

was just when I wrote this it was like during lockdown. So I

was reading a lot more on like anti Asian hate crime and just

reading up on like, East and Southeast Asian offers. And

yeah, I read a lot of like Cathy Park Hong, like it was like part

memoir, part poetry, but a lot of that stuff like resonated.

Rebecca May Johnson: I mean, I make a lot of citations in the

book. At the end, I have works referenced in order of their

appearance, but most of them are not food books, but um, I guess.

Yeah, I don't know. Let me think about this. Let me think about

this. Thinking of memoirs...

Lucy Dearlove: That's interesting that both of your

answers to this were non food books

Rebecca May Johnson: I mean, I've enjoyed stuff in the past,

like, you know, Elizabeth, David's essays and stuff, but

actually, I don't even cite her in this book at all. But a

memoir that I read in the year before writing the book was

Lucy: Yeah, I think you write about a picnic, right? That she

Audre Lorde's book, Zami, which isn't specifically a food

memoir. It's about growing up in Harlem in the 30s, and the 40s

as a black child in a very racial...racially segregated

environment. And obviously doesn't relate to my personal

biography at all. But there is an amazing use of food in the

book as a way of telling you about her life, about the

political situation at the time, her relationship with her

mother, and pleasure, so much about pleasure and sex in that

book that's to do with food. And the kind of ways that food

goes on with her family.

breaks down boundaries were different between different

categories of life in Audre Lorde's book, I thought was very

interesting and inspiring and helpful.

Rebecca May Johnson: Yeah, exactly. I mean, there's so many

good food points in the book. But this one really kind of

crystallizes so much of what their family was going through

at the time, which, like, they were going on a family trip to

Washington that she was really, really excited about. Her mum

knew that they were going to be discriminated against, that they

were not going to be able to go into some of the nice places

because of racial segregation. So she made this incredibly

elaborate and beautiful picnic. That kind of was like a way of

attending to and respecting and loving every single part of her

family's body and their life. And it was just just so moving.

And when they got there, they couldn't go to the ice cream

parlour. And they got made to leave by the white waitress

and...but they didn't miss out on any pleasure in that day or

we.....her mum did everything that she could meant that they

didn't by, by making this beautiful picnic. Yeah. So yeah,

that's not like...I'm white, obviously. And I didn't grow up

in that situation. But the the way in which Lorde weaves,

weaves through food through her memoir, I found very interesting

and inspiring. For me as well.aazctually...I don't think

I cite it in the book. But there's this social theorist

called Luce Giard, who was part of a big project called the

Practice of Everyday Life from I think the late 70s in France,

led by this sociologist called Michel de Certeau. I first

encountered that work through meeting my partner who's a

social scientist. And I kind of was rifling through the book and

it had this whole section on cooking and doing. So there's

long passages, and it's like a real sort of huge social study

of France in the late 70s and early 80s, I think, and big

studies of like food, shopping practices, and looking at things

like that as a way of understanding society on a

broader basis. And it's a microcosm of that. And this is

one very poetic passage that Giard wrote about how culinary

knowledge is passed through generations, specifically of

women. And it's something incredibly romantic about it,

sort of the gesture of your hand, and I will honour your

life through this gesture, through reenacting these

gestures. However, I won't inherit the servitude that you

suffered, I don't want to inherit the servitude that you

suffered. But I do want to inherit these beautiful gestures

of cooking with your hands, this knowledge that's held in the

body. And reading that theory was, was so exciting and made me

think about the richness of the knowledge that's carried in the

body, and how that's part of the biography. So that's not I guess

food memoir and in a traditional sense, but it helps me

understand what I could do with writing about food, or like how

I could try and take it seriously.

Angela Hui: I didn't realize when writing the book, there's

just so much research...I think I've read more than like

actually writing, like researching other people's

writingright? Like similar food memoirs, I think was like Olivia

Potts's, like what was her book? A Half Baked Idea. Like Felicity

Cloake's, One More Croissant For The Road. Like similar formats

where they had recipes throughout, and Dolly Alderton's

book as well, which had like recipes and it breaks it up in

between. But again, it was like slightly different I would say

it's not exactly like food - well, other than Olivia's one.

But it was interesting - like you said that similar to you how

reading other work that wasn't exactly food that influenced

you. I also read Ocean Vuong's On Earth, We're Briefly

Gorgeous, which is about him finding his sexuality and living

in...I don't know where he lived. It was like in the middle

of nowhere essentially, like similar upbringing. Like almost

like the Midwest where it's like there's not much going on and

you feel the same kind of resonate...like you resonate

with the same thing.

Rebecca May Johnson: In a way I think sometimes the category

food writing is like a false category in a sense because it's

writing and it's in dialogue with so many other forms of

literature and writing and I don't know...somehow just food

writing is almost inadequate as a category.

Angela Hui: Absolutely.

Rebecca May Johnson: And also somehow depoliticises

sometimes...well, I wrote about about this in my book as well,

but you know, Angela's book is so political in what it does and

its impact, and you know, it's funny and lively and and all

those things as well and, and compelling etc. But it's also a

profoundly political book about, you know, migration and racism

and you know, so much stuff and language and understanding. And,

yeah, I kind of feel like everyone should read it!

Angela Hui: I feel the same with your book. It's like, even

though food is...our books are food books, but I feel like food

is almost like an afterthought. It's like, there's so many other

aspects of it. With yours, it was also trying to find like, as

a coming of age as well, both are coming of age, but you're

different periods of time, I feel like you with yours. Like I

said the bit before, the bit about you in Berlin, just trying

to find yourself changing your exterior to try and fit in and,

you know, different surroundings...

Rebecca May Johnson: And you talk about outfits as well.

Angela Hui: Yeah, like, I feel like that's where really

resonated with your book, it was very much how changing who you

are to try and fit in, trying to fit into like society, and not

really ever being happy with yourself and finding yourself.

And then just food just so happens to be part of it as

well, I think

Rebecca May Johnson: Actually, in different ways, as well, we,

we both write a lot about labour, you know, different

types of work and thinking about that work and the role of that

work, and how that work is valued or not valued or seen or

not seen and stuff. Which...you know, again, like, that's also I

think, part of the political aspect of significantly a huge

intervention that your book makes into how British society

understands itself is bearing witness to that labour and what

it really means and what it's really takes....yeah, I mean, I,

I grew up in a rural place. And... really sadly, we didn't

have access to a Chinese takeaway, because there was

nothing close enough. But, you know, like, as you say, there's,

like, there's the counter, and then there's everything that

goes on behind it. And it's a story that is just not told

enough. And it's just a real space of heroic acts of labour,

on behalf of your parents and you and like, it's just

incredible...it's like a really dramatic space as well, like, so

much of life and so much knowledge and so much, you know,

it's just incredible. Yeah.

Angela Hui: I mean, it's the same with you, it was like you,

when you write about how you worked in a fish and chip shop,

I mean, probably the most perfect passage about saveloys,

and comparing that to like, eating...it was like, the odds

and ends and basically, and how it was just like the entrails of

everything. But like, it just shows the, like, in a similar

sense, we're working in these type of environments and spaces

that aren't given as much day of light. And the stories that

aren't really told through that, and I loved the, you know, is

working in like, like, the everyday situations that people

often oversee.

Rebecca May Johnson: Because I'm writing about cooking in my 20s

as a student...I mean, because I did a PhD, I was a student for a

really long time, but just moving house a lot, I guess,

yeah, thinking about just domestic labour as well. And

like, I think a lot of people struggle to value, the work that

they do in domestic space, and think about it as interesting

and funny and knowledgeable. And even my mum, like my mum's a

great cook. And that's the real space in which she speaks, in a

way, through her cooking. But she always plays it down, you

know, always. And she won't even claim her own knowledge

sometimes. And she shies away from that, and oh, I just did

this. Oh, it wasn't really that, you know, and there's always

this minimizing of that work. And I just really wanted to

expand, you know, give pages and pages to, to those everyday acts

of thinking and working in the kitchen.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, I think that's one of the kind of

parallels between your book, both your books that occurred to

me is that the crossing of that boundary between the domestic

and the outside world. So I think in your book, Rebecca, I

really loved how cooking was written about alongside fashion,

alongside art, alongside clubbing, alongside sex, like I

think it doesn't often get considered in those...in that

position. And I think - and even like for you Angela the like,

physical boundary of the counter, like a lot of people

just would never consider what goes on behind that. Like that's

a very like, it's a really like nice metaphorical and like

actual boundary. That it...like the domestic is also like, there

was no line for you like that was, it was very blurred between

like domestic and business and, and food. Yeah, so I think it's

yeah, it's interesting. One of the first questions I had, I had

to ask you both was, what were the similarities you thought

between, between your books, but like it's come up naturally.

There are so many parallels. Like on the surface of it they

might seem like quite different books, but there's actually a

lot in common. So did you both know, when you were writing that

it was a coming of age book?

Angela Hui: Well, I feel like it's natural, because it's been

all my life. So it is just writing my life. And it was

throughout all my childhood. You know, I was born in Wales, and

started working when I was eight. And when I was a baby, my

mum would just put me in a chip box under the pantry, in the

like, under the stairs it's like a little pantry where we had

like metal stacks of, you know, like, there was like, eggs and

flour and sugar, everything we need, and there was like a

little, like shutter. So I don't know how I slept because it's

like right next to the extractor fan. So my mum would just check

in on me every now and then. So yeah, as a baby, I was like, in

the chip box. And I would run around and sort of feel like it

was just a natural...had to be kind of a coming of age, because

there was so much well, it was so much. It was my life,

essentially, up until, like, I was 26. Pretty much so it was

like such a big portion of it. And, yeah, I feel like it just

came to me naturally, I think.

Rebecca May Johnson: I was very resistant to that. For ages.

Even the word memoir was something I really resisted a

lot.

Lucy Dearlove: Why?

Rebecca May Johnson: My publisher tried really hard to

get it in the title? And I didn't let them. Because, you

know, for commercial reasons. Like, I think that, you know,

epic is like, what is an epic? Because I guess, I don't know,

probably because I did spend too long at university, but no, not

really. Anyway, but I guess I thought of as like an

intellectual pursuit at first. You know, it took me ages to

think about what the book was going to be. It's very, I guess,

it's quite a strange book in some ways, like, the, the, it's

not chronological. What is the logic behind the chapter

progression? It just sort of emerged. But it's not...but the

the progression is maybe more to do with gestures or feelings or

thought, like the movement of different thoughts rather

than...rather than my life. So so the, the book is not bound to

my, my biography chronologically at all. When I was thinking

about the book, I was like, you know, I want to give this

intellect...because, you know, I wanted to draw on my PhD

studies. And I wanted to give that attention, that

intellectual attention that I've been giving so long to

literature, to cooking. And I think I thought, oh, you know,

my life, why is my life relevant or interesting to this in a way,

even though all of the knowledge that I had, that I wanted to

write about really came out of cooking myself, but I didn't

want me to be the focus. And in a way, although I...there is

memoir in the book. It's not about me in a really intense

way. Like as a person, I feel like, I use myself as a way to

explore ideas. But I didn't...I used the...going to sound like a

nob now. But I use the I, as in the pronoun I, as a space of

exploring these ideas and asking these questions, rather than

being confessional. My book is not confessional, really. And

actually, I do think I remain at a distance in the book,

ultimately,

Angela Hui: I felt that too. I felt like when I was reading

about you and your life, but it just didn't feel like oh, it's

it's all about me and my story and my life. But it also felt

like it was everyone's I if that made sense.

Rebecca May Johnson: Interesting. Yeah, I wanted...and people,

other people who aren't me are also not named. So everyone

who's not me, everyone is not I is you. That was very purposeful

because I wanted there not to be a hierarchy of relationships in

the book. Because one of the things I wanted to express about

cooking and food, something that I found out through living so I

guess that's the memoir aspect of it, is that there is an

erotics and an intimacy and an erotic and an intimate dimension

to food and cooking for all people, whoever they are, they

sort of frissons, those moments, wanting to sate the desire of

someone, you know, that's very intimate, wanting to make

someone feel pleasure, that's very intimate. And I think

significantly, we often try to exclude the, the sort of, the

erotic and the intimate, from from how we talk about food and

because it's almost too much, you know, to...it almost feels

inappropriate. But of course, we're taking something from

outside ourselves and putting it in our body. Now, what other

context does that take place? I mean, depends on your

preferences, obviously, but, you know, often in a sexual context.

And so it's not to make it sort of weird or pervy, or whatever.

Although I think there are some slightly horny moments in the

book...

Lucy Dearlove: And that's fine.

Rebecca May Johnson: But, but it's more like I wanted to sort

of desanitize that aspect of what food is about in one's

life. Which...it is part of lots of moments of physical, you

know, personal difficulty, or, you know, desire and discovery

and all those things. And so in that sense, I draw on memoir, I

draw on lived experience to ask these questions. So I guess I'm

like taking the methods that I was trained in from doing a PhD,

and then I'm taking it into the kitchen. And because of that, I

guess, because I thought that at the beginning, I struggled to

think of it as memoir, but now I've come to a completely. I've

made my peace with the idea of memoir, and I see it as a really

important tool for thinking. And Angela's book has so many

moments of theorizing and thinking in it, drawing on

everyday life as well. Yeah. And yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: And did you find it...I mean, I think what struck

me about, I think, especially your book, Angela is like

writing, from the point of view of your younger self. How did it

feel to kind of revisit that self?

Angela Hui: I think like a few people have asked, I was

like...a lot of people say book writing is very therapeutic,

which it is in a sense, but it was really traumatic as well,

because it's such a personal thing. And there's things I

never really talked about with anyone else, like domestic

abuse, or my dad's gambling, and, you know, having a very

dysfunctional family and all these self identity worries, and

just, you know, worrying about, like what others would perceive

of me. And it just really sent me into like, anxiety, like

madness. And then afterwards, I had to get therapy after book

writing. I think I was really worried about what other people

would say, like, my, a lot of my family members, especially in

Asian culture, it's very much like...in Asian culture is much

everyone keeps to themselves. They don't talk about certain

things, it's very taboo. And especially in topics like these,

a lot of people would shy away from, and you know, even my

aunties, who've like said about the book afterwards, they're

like, Oh, why have you written this book? And I think when I

told my parents when...I'm writing a book, the first thing

they said, like, why are you writing a book? Like, it's no,

we're not interesting in any way. But, yeah.

Rebecca May Johnson: That's...their feeling that you know, you just

expressed there is the fact that you've gone and done it is also

what's...one part of what's so significant about it.

Angela Hui: Yeah, I think what really shocked me is just so

many people that resonated with it. And then obviously, like,

this is very much my life. But it also resonates with familiar

with takeaway kids, but not just takeaway kids, but people who

grew up in pubs or people who worked in fish and chips or grew

up in fish and chips, or never really had a childhood that was

kind of robbed with them, they all kind of resonate. And, yeah,

it's just really, I don't know, I've tried to think of the words

to say.

Rebecca May Johnson: It's very brave.

Angela Hui: I mean, I wouldn't...I would say, I don't

know, at the time of writing, I didn't feel like I was very

brave. I just felt like I was almost like writing a diary, or

a diary that I never really kept before when working. I think

someone asked me before asking, like, did you ever keep a diary

when you're working in the takeaway and I never did,

because...

Rebecca May Johnson: When's the time?

Angela Hui: I didn't have time, I was doing my homework. And it

was almost like throughout childhood, you kind of living

through trauma, and you just have to deal with it. And this

is it and you'd never really acknowledge it. And until a

couple of years later, when we sold the shop in 2018, you kind

of reevaluate and you really miss the time like then you get

really nostalgic of the shop and having the shop was almost like

the sixth family member, because you put the shop before your own

needs, you know, you'd always prep work, you wake up, go to

wholesalers and buy ingredients, and you'd always be back before

work for...be back home at 5pm for work. And then when we sold

the shop, it was just trying to reconfigure like who we are in

our lives and try to figure out our own paths. And I felt like

that's what really kind of made me want to write the book in the

first place. So is trying to...first off as I document

this really unique but strange experience in life growing up in

a Chinese takeaway, but also, yeah, just trying to put it to

pen to like understand it, because I feel like a lot of

people who grew up in that environment never really had the

chance to like, oh, yeah, that actually did happen to us. Like,

you don't realise when you're actually living it and working

with it, I think, yeah.

Rebecca May Johnson: By making that narrative, you've given

people the space, you've made a space in which people can have

those conversations with themselves and think and

reflect... I mean, from the other side, like, I'm white,

we're similar in age, I remember as well, the casual, horrible

racism of that period. And it's such an important thing and

brave thing. And it's so...that you've documented...it's awful

that you've ever had to do it or experience it...from the other

side and, you know, everyone should, every fucking white

person in the UK should read that. Because, you know, it's

just, it was just everywhere, you know. And still, we're like,

things like Little Britain, I guess that kind of horrible

strain of humour kind of goes on in some kind of places.

Lucy Dearlove: So normalized.

Rebecca May Johnson: It was so normalized, like there was so

much....I mean, that period of time was so fucking weird

politically. Like, I mean, on a different note, like I wrote

very briefly about in my book, What Not To Wear. Yeah. And I

went back on you, I went on YouTube and watched some old

episodes. And the absolute violence of the language that

they use to the people's bodies that they had on the show, the

heinous fatphobia and hatred,

Lucy Dearlove: And we just internalized it.

Rebecca May Johnson: And that was the norm. So..it was such a

popular TV show, I remember be like, with my, you know, talking

about my school friends, and it was like, I'm like this,

therefore, I can't wear that or do that, or whatever.

Lucy Dearlove: It was only reading that in your book that I

was like, Oh, my god.

Rebecca May Johnson: Yeah, you should go and watch some old

episodes on YouTube. And also, for people, I imagined for

people who also experienced it, like having it laid out there

like that. It must, it must be really helpful.

Angela Hui: Yeah. Like, like, I think it was very therapeutic in

the sense where you address a lot of the racism that's not

really talked about. But again, it just like internalize a lot

of it, where you just feel like, Oh, this is just part and parcel

of the job, I do just have to deal with it. And my brother

posted about the book cos, he'd finally read it, even though

he's like, read, he'd read like, some first draft but not, like,

from start to finish. And he made a post about it, and it

made me cry so much. I was like, on the tube reading it. And

obviously, it's told from my perspective. And even though

they were like my early colleagues, so they worked in

the kitchen, as well as front of house as well. And they

obviously deal with the racism as well. But he said that, you

know, I never realised that you were very sexualized, as well as

a young age, because you're, you're on the front lines and

the counter, you're dealing with all these drunk customers. And

you're...these like old 60 or 70 year old men asking you to marry

you, like a 12 year old girl, and it's quite fucked up. Sorry,

am I allowed to swear?

Lucy Dearlove: You are.

Angela Hui: Great, I'm gonna swear some more. And yeah, it's

just really messed up time that you, you never really think to

reexamine. And when you look back on it, you're writing it

and you're faced with it again, you're like, Oh, my God, like,

did I really do like, I can't believe I just brushed it off. I

can't believe I didn't say anything then. I think I was

such a shy, awkward kid. And I think it didn't help either

being one of the very few Asian families.

Rebecca May Johnson: Well it's implicitly dangerous. Like it's,

it's - well and explicitly, as you write about in the book, to

stick up for yourself was something that could cause

danger to you, physical and other types of danger. Like it

was very threatening. It's a very threatening situation as a

12 year old, you shouldn't have to be addressing the racism or

and sexualization of an, of an older person. Like, it's a

totally unequal distribution of power. Like there's no way you

could have done...nothing. You know,

Lucy Dearlove: That's so interesting, though, that like,

even though obviously, you had very similar experiences to your

brothers, there's obviously just like, parts of each others'

stories that you've never like, witnessed or talked about. Yeah,

must have been like, quite traumatic to relive those.

Angela Hui: Yeah, but in a way, I'm like, I'm...I was debating

for ages, whether it includes certain details, like the right

like a lot of the racism and some of our very personal

problem, family problems. And, you know, I spoke to my partner

and some family members as well saying, like, I don't know

whether to include these things. Like I never even talked to my

parents about certain things. Because, again, in Asian

culture, we just don't talk about feelings. We don't talk

about how we're feeling. We don't talk about mental health,

like those things don't really exist. And I was...yeah, I was

debating whether to write and I'm...and my partner was like,

if you're not writing these things, I don't think you're

kind of writing your like authentic self in a way. You're

kind of sugarcoating the actual experience of it.

Rebecca May Johnson: You couldn't say it, so you have to

write it.

Angela Hui: Yeah, I feel like that's how it was really, you

had to just write...it was almost like word vomit to page

and this is what the result is and...Yeah, I don't know, I feel

like some people even asked they were like, is this actually a

true story or was it dramaticised? And it was like,

no these things actually happened.

Rebecca May Johnson: It would be more dramatic if you told them

Angela Hui: Yeah! And like this is...I told my mum, my mum, like

everything!

so, you know, she had, my parents haven't read it, because

it can't speak English or read English. But when my brother

read it, he was just saying like, Oh, this is just like a

fraction. This is like, the PG friendly version, like the stuff

outside of the book is like, even worse, I feel like I've

just kind of filtered out a lot of the worse, like the even

worse stuff for that is a bit more palatable. Yeah, I just,

yeah. Well, how was it for you, Rebecca, for your book writing?

I want to know, because you said you went to therapy afterwards.

Rebecca May Johnson: No, before. Before, yeah, I was struggling

to start the book. And I got...I got a grant from the Society of

Authors to help, to have...a work in progress grant to help

support the writing. And I use that to start some of that to

start therapy, which is great, because then the, the week I

started therapy I was able to start writing, having not been

able to, but I think it released, it released something.

And what I said about being in denial about memoir, like I was

in denial about memoir, until I started writing. And then I

realized that like memoir is a really big aspect of it and

drawing on life. And but to do that, you have to be able to

write about yourself in some way. And that is really hard.

And to contemplate yourself at different points in time and

what you're feeling or the difficulties you're going

through. And so whilst it's not confessional, I suppose, I'm

still writing about things I'm doing at different times.

Sometimes I teach creative writing, and I said to students,

recently, now you can't just write a book that your parents

would approve of, because then what would be in it, like

nothing. It'd be like a weird, sanitized, fairy tale, do you

know what I mean, because that's, you know, obviously,

parents want everything to be okay for their kids, and they

all they, they don't want, anyway, whatever. So you know,

even just writing about things like sex, sexuality, horniness,

my gender, like I write quite a lot about my feelings about my

own gender. Quite early in the book. There's a real like...

Lucy Dearlove: Very early.

Rebecca May Johnson: Very early in the book, like, straight in

there. And I wrote, you know, in quite an erotic way, writing

about apron wearing. But I'm also bringing in sort of some

gender theory that I read early in my 20s, that made a big

impact on me, and, and feelings about that kind of stuff. So

that's yeah, gender, and sexual things like that in my life and

other points, and I've been depressed or had fatigue.

Towards the end of the book, I write a lot about me about

having fatigue and sort of not being able to get up or do

anything. And I didn't want to...and yeah, someone was

saying they're surprised at how much like at the end of the

book, and that one that sort of the final big chapter I write a

lot about not cooking and being on the sofa and feeling crap and

like hating what I'm cooking and just sort of not being

interested in it. And I wanted to keep the difficulty in the

text. I didn't want to have a falsely sanitized impression of

happy cooking, the happy cook all the time, because that isn't

the case. And yeah, I wanted to present the complexity of

cooking in...such as I'd encountered it. And that

includes being totally unable to cook when I have fatigue. When I

have fatigue, which I get periodically, I can't do

anything. Just have to...like I lose cognitive function, I just

have to like, lie down or watch TV or something. I can't really

walk around, like anything like that. Yeah, I wanted to include

that stuff as well. And that was...I guess that was a real

decision. Yeah, I don't know, not to pretend that things are

different to what they were.

Angela Hui: But I think it's just such an exposing thing. I

think with memoir writing, it/s such a like, that's the sort of

thing I'm still trying to wrap my head around is the exposing

thing because it's such a raw thing you're...part of yourself

is out there. And other people know so much about you, that's

the thing that really terrifies me.

Rebecca May Johnson: Yeah and it's like looking in the mirror

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, you self edit.

and seeing all the difficult things about yourself and not

Rebecca May Johnson: Exactly. And one of the nicest things

keeping the shitty things about yourself off the page. And like,

that someone said who read an early copy of the book was that

it's hard because usually if you're given an account of

yourself to someone in casual conversation or you meet for the

first time or on your CV or in a job application or whenever on

in other occasions, you make a sort of image of yourself. You

exclude all that all that crap usually.

it made them feel okay about not, not cooking, and they felt

it gave them space to not want to cook because people don't

have to cook if they don't want to. I didn't want to write

this...I'm evangelizing and evangelizing texts about

cooking. Like, I wanted to document its richness, but I

also wanted to document that it is work and that it's difficult

and you can't always do it and, and you might also feel shit

about doing it and hate your own meals sometimes and everything

like that. Because, yeah, you don't have to pretend it's great

all the time.

Angela Hui: Yeah, like, I love that as well with like, that's

another like similarity in our book I felt was just food isn't

always like, Oh, this bringing together happiness, you know,

bundle of joy was also like, food was also very painful. And

thing that you kind of reject, you don't even want at times.

And I remember there was like one argument that I had with my

dad, and he's trying to make it up for me through one of my

favourite foods, steamed egg. I was just like, how do I accept

this food? When we just had this massive argument? And I don't

even really want it. It's like...

Rebecca May Johnson: It's such a difficult moment in the book.

Angela Hui: But yeah, and you, it's almost the same as you.

It's like, I don't even have the energy or the same, like when

you're so fatigued, and your...food is the last thing on

your mind.

Rebecca May Johnson: Yeah. And you, when you're physically

unable to do it, the amount of work and thinking that actually

requires is so evident, because you can't do it. Yeah. And it's

suddenly, and then you realize as well, how much people who do

it all the time, like, you know, my mum, for example, growing up,

like, how much minimizing there is of the work that is involved?

Yeah. And that's also the you know, the thing about the

takeaway, isn't it? Like, yeah, it's ...forthe consumer, it's

something of convenience, even like a minor delay in your

delivery makes people angry as you kind of account for the

book. But on the other, on the other side, there's huge amounts

of labour and chopping it and child labour and everything, you

know, and it it's not..there's nothing convenient about it. For

those who are making it is huge.

Lucy Dearlove: I think one of the things that struck me about

both of your books that felt quite different from I think a

lot of food writing is like the focus on routine and repetition.

And like doing the same things over and over again, cooking the

same things over and over again, like whether by choice or

necessity. I feel like a lot of food writing focuses on like the

new or the novel. Was that like, I mean, obviously, it was just

part of... it was a part and parcel of, like, the thing that

you were writing about. But was that something you were

conscious about?

Angela Hui: I think I was too. Because, you know, working in

the takeaway, it was very much like you said, it was like a

production line, because you're dealing with work, you know, we

had massive vats of egg fried rice, we had to like get through

every day. And it was just cooking the same thing again and

again. So you kind of lose the joy out of it. Because it you

become disassociated with food. Because you kind of see it as

like, oh, as a way of making money, you lose the joy of it.

And I think that's why I kind of really fell out of love with

food for such a long time. And I wanted to come..when I first

started, when I moved to London, to find my own way and have my

own job. I wanted to work in fashion because I was like, the

complete opposite end of food. And I wanted to have a very

like, yeah, very my own way and then realised I hate fashion. It

took me a really long time to kind of fall back in love with

food again, to actually be okay with it. I think there is like

good and bad in like repetition and like cooking the same things

again, and again. There's a lot of comfort in that as well how,

you know, we always had found..like, regardless of

working in the shop, and all the other things that we had to do:

prepping and making sure we went to like Chinese school and

regular school as well and helping out and deliveries. My

parents always made sure that we always had a great family meal,

which was such a big thing. And that was such a central pillar.

And again, it didn't really matter that we always ate the

same thing.

Rebecca May Johnson: And it was for you, though, it wasn't for

the customer.

Angela Hui: Yeah it wasjust for us. It was a very sacred thing.

And sometimes I took those for granted thinking like, I really

don't want family meal. I don't want rice. I specifically said

to my mum, like I want burger and chips or, you know, beans on

toast like all my other white friends.

An escape from the routine?

Rebecca May Johnson: Yeah.

It seems like, like, what Lucy was saying about repetition, and

you were just saying..you had no escape from it. You know, you

have to come back to it on your own terms. When you're older,

when you'd had the opportunity to refuse it and to turn away

from it for a period of time. So you could come back to it on

your own terms. It wasn't something you had no choice

about.

Angela Hui: Yeah, I feel as I've grown up, it's like almost like

a fresh pair of eyes or reexamining or like falling back

in love with it again.

Rebecca May Johnson: You have the freedom to choose it now.

Angela Hui: Yeah, exactly rather than being forced on me. But

yeah..

Rebecca May Johnson: Because obviously you have the residual

expertise of that period. When it was forced on you, but you

don't have to do that work all the time.

Angela Hui: Yeah. And, yeah, I feel like I do look back on

those, like family meals with such fondness. And I really miss

them, like my mum and my dad made so much effort to just

making this, you know, very elaborate...there would always

make it over the top. But you know, there was only five of us

but they would probably feed 10 of us, you know, go above and

beyond. And as a child, I just was such a brat. And I never

really appreciated that and everything that they did for us.

And I think that's what I wanted to include in the book was just

like, it's almost like fantasizing about that, again,

as an adult. When I reread it and written it again, those

family meals...

Rebecca May Johnson: Maybe you're experiencing what your

parents were trying to do.

Angela Hui: Yeah. Just trying to make sure that we had, you know,

had enough food to eat for one because my parents came from

such like, troubled childhoods, you know, my mom growing up in

the Cultural Revolution, and my dad had a very scrappy childhood

in Hong Kong, like dropping out of school since he was 13. So

they always had, you know, they both had never, never enough to

eat. So it was always a priority to make sure that we were fed.

Rebecca May Johnson: I mean, you don't have to feel guilty about

about as a child because you're only a child. Yeah, it was also

challenging from, from what you write about in your book.

Angela Hui: I feel like I do feel a lot of other takeaway

kids that I have spoken to also feel that same guilt, where they

all all felt like a brat, they all felt like they were very,

they all just felt they were very ungrateful, they were just

very harsh to their parents, they were just lashing out on

their parents because of this environment that we're in. And

you know, having to have the obligation, like you have to

work, but you also want to be obliged to help your family

because this is your family.

Rebecca May Johnson: It is impossible situation, though.

And it's a structure. It's a systemic, you know, the fact of

it being so hard to survive financially and migrating. And,

you know, that is...from what you write about in your book,

like those demands made it really hard for everyone and to

have feelings and have a family and show your care for people in

that context is really hard.

Angela Hui: Yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: What about routine and repetition for you,

Rebecca? Like at the heart of the books, there's a, there's a

cooking, you know, this idea of cooking the same recipe over and

over again.

Rebecca May Johnson: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting...I've

also been thinking recently about that comment you made

about the focus on novelty. And I think that is..that's a

capitalist thing.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah.

Rebecca May Johnson: I mean, literally, Marx writes about it

in Capital.

Lucy Dearlove: Oh really?

Rebecca May Johnson: Yeah, that it always needs innovation

to..as a way of generating more more capital. And on the whole,

innovations, technological innovations are a way of making,

either generating new sources of profit, or making things more

efficient, so you can have greater...

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, of course.

Rebecca May Johnson: Anyway, sorry, we don't need to go

through that!

Rebecca May Johnson: Because actually, most people's cooking

Lucy Dearlove: No, it's definitely important.

is quite...most people's daily cooking in the home is

Lucy Dearlove: Metaphorically, 1000 times.

Rebecca May Johnson: Metaphorically, but definitely hundreds and

relatively repetitive. Yeah. And that is both very kind of

grounding, in a sense that it is something that you return to,

hundreds. And it became..this one recipe that I cooked over

that you help...and through which you understand yourself

over time through each, each time you return to a dish over a

long period of time, it becomes a way of engaging your mood or

where...you know. So it's so many different things, because

you cook the same dish, different ways, depending on

what's going on. Yeah, and I became interested in the idea

of, of this recipe that I'd made, I mean, I say 1000 times,

who knows.

and over again, became a kind of founding sort of grammar,

almost, for all of my cooking. It gave me a new understanding

of cooking, and which then became the basis of all cooking

I did after that point. So it then I guess, it was the basis

of a language in that sense. And if you think about, you know,

all that happens in the hundreds of times that Angela's, you

know, mum makes the same dish, the thoughts she has, the

encounters, the life that she sustains, like everything that

goes on. Like, and again, Angela has, like blown up the takeaway

to to an epic narrative of migration and coming of age and

identity and and parental love and difficulty and racism and,

you know, modern life, you know. And so, in that repetition is so

much of life and forms of labour that originate in the domestic,

like cooking, like cleaning, like so many of those things,

through you know, misogyny and neo- colonialism and racism and

so many things, they get made to seem like less in our culture,

but they're everything and they're so important.

Angela Hui: For you with the like book writing process. Yeah.

Like, how did you feel about it the entire time? I guess it

just in terms of, obviously, a lot of people ask like, oh, is a

therapeutic for you? But I guess like, how did you even sta...?

Rebecca May Johnson: It's really hard to start.Yeah, it's very

intense. I put myself under a lot of pressure. As I think you

did. I struggled to start, I found it very intense. I had to

take rests in between chapters. In fact, I actually got ill in

between some chapters with fatigue and had to sort of like

literally, like, lie down like a vegetable for like a week.

Angela Hui: Yeah, same.

Rebecca May Johnson: Because it doesn't come from nowhere does

it, you're not a machine, it's not like, yeah, typing

out...It's not like you're just typing stuff out. It is coming

from you. Yeah. And I think it's really important to have to do

the gestational labour of thinking in between writing.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, that's the writing too, right?

Rebecca May Johnson: Exactly. You've got to, you've got to

have space for your mind, to drift and for ideas to ferment

and all that. I did read one essay that really helped me

begin writing, which was by a psychoanalyst and poet called

Nuar Alsadir. She just published a book of non-fiction called

Animal Joy. And she wrote this essay that was published on Lit

Hub, about going to clown school. Wow, some kind of, yeah,

I think Sacha Baron Cohen went to the same clown school,

actually. But what was useful about it, was about it. And they

helped me be the sort of the bravery to summon the courage

basically, was about you have to be your own type of freaky

clown.

Angela Hui: Like, you kind of, you do!

Rebecca May Johnson: You know, like, if you, if you try to be

the clown, that's imagining the audience and how it wants to be

pleased. You'll write this strange, fake book or fake...she

she's writing about poetry, like a fake poem, that is like your

fantasy of what it is to be competent, rather than something

that's deeply truthful. Do you see what I mean? Yeah. So like,

she talks about when everyone gets New Yorker fever, and they

want to get in the New Yorker. So they write something that

they think will get them in the New Yorker. Yeah. Which is like

a projection, a projection of what good writing is, yeah,

rather than...And then obviously, if you're the clown

that's thinking too much about the audience, you can't really

clown. You've got to be the freak.

Lucy Dearlove: So it's about a lack of self consciousness? And

self expression?

Rebecca May Johnson: Yeah, you've got to tap into...why do

you want to write a book? You have to tap into the grain of

truth, whatever it is that you're trying to write, in a

way, not think about the reader. Obviously, you're, you know,

writing in language, language is inherently social, but and, you

know, as I said, you know, the book is...not in a particularly

normal chronology. And it's quite strange in various ways,

as we've discussed, with the diagrams and whatever. And now,

I think...hopefully writing another book, I'd feel more

confident. I had to learn to trust myself. And that was

really hard. And actually reading that essay was a really

useful thing. It's like, I'm writing, writing the book for

me. And I have to be myself and in...do it in the way that I

want to. Because that's all I can do. I can't write someone

else's book. Yeah. Or some weird projection of what I think

people want to read. That isn't really what I want to write.

Yeah. Because what is that?

Lucy Dearlove: I love that..you've got to be your own

freaky clown.

Angela Hui: It's so true, though.

Rebecca May Johnson: You know, what's distinctively funny or

whatever about whichever reader or person it is. Yeah, the

things that you..your parents, like, why would you write this

for that, it's like well...?

Angela Hui: Because it's my book. Yeah, from my perspective,

how I perceive it. Yeah. And that's okay. You got to be

freaky, right! And I think it's fine.

Rebecca May Johnson: What I found amazing about one of

the...one of the many amazing things about your book is how

you managed to write such complex situations and such

complex emotions about people. There's often like chapters

where there'll be the coexistence of trauma and upset

with validating the labour and love that went into nurturing

your existence with the family unity, dealing with issues of

people being arseholes, racism, but...and pointing out the

difficulties of being an immigrant family in a rural

village. On the other hand, there was real affection for

many characters from where you grew up as well. And I think

it's, it's such a skill to allow that...the complexity and all

those different dynamics to cohabit in the same context, not

to sort of cleanse out the complexity. You don't...you

manage to tell a story that has so much, so many threads going

on like that, and I find that you know, on the one hand,

sometimes you're happy, but also you're really tired. But also

you like the person from the village, but also some other

person from the village is being an arsehole and you love your

mother. But also you really want your parents just leave you the

fuck alone. You know, this, you know, you managed to capture the

real, rich complexity of, of life. And I think that's so

hard. And relationships. Classic dickhead behaviour, it's more of

a comment than a question, but how was it? What was it like

writing about people that you really know?

Angela Hui: Yeah, that's the thing that really fucked with my

head, I guess, cos I was like, because I come from such a small

village, people are gonna to read that, people know that,

like, I changed a lot of the names for privacy, right. But I

still feel they are very, like, you could have if, you know,

people who live in my village knows who's who...like will

probably be able to point out, a lot of locations have changed as

well. And that's what like, freaks me out a little bit is

like, these people are gonna read it, I hope they like it.

But either way, it was really fun. It was almost like fiction,

but it's wasn't fiction, because these are people I knew. When I

first started writing the book, I had an insane amount of

post-its on my wall. So it looks like you know, when you have

when you're trying to like an investigation, you try to solve

a crime and you got all these like, ropes coming off

everywhere, there's like pictures, that's what my wall

looked like I looked like I was trying to solve a murder case.

Rebecca May Johnson: Well you are, of your own life!

Angela Hui: Yeah, of my own life. So I had all these postits

that I would like chop, and change and move and like the

recipes and chapters and the characters. So I had one wall,

It's funny people ask you about whether stuff is fictionalised,

had one wall for characters actually. And one more for the

chapters and what we will cover and one more for recipes. But

yeah, the character section, I really wanted to just make sure

that the like the core people were there other than my family,

but the people that was like reoccurring characters, like the

front of house, like other counter staff, and the delivery

drivers and regular customers, I think it really helped having

the customers because each and every customer that we had was

such characters, and they were exactly like that. And I think

that's the beauty of coming in a small village where there's not

much going on, but it's like, it's the people that really make

it. You know, we had this loyal customer, who I love, they're

called, like my mum doesn't actually know their name, but we

call them the boiled rice Granny, because she would always

come in early with her husband, and they'll come a half an hour

early, they'll wait by the door for us to open and they'll

always have like a small boiled rice and a beef curry. And you

know, I'd always let them in sit on this, like the bench before,

because it's sometimes really cold sometimes. And I'll just

chat to them for a bit. Or, you know, you get the drunken guy

who'd always order a steak. And he was really racist and

horrible. You know, it's just all these characters that have

just stuck in my mind. And they just in a way they're so easy to

write about, because they almost write themselves because of the

way they are.

like sometimes like the truth is better.

No, they're all completely real people that I know.

Rebecca May Johnson: It sounds like you have some good in a way

writing devices in place to help you write it as if ...to give

you that freedom...

Angela Hui: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Rebecca May Johnson: To write it in a way that felt truthful

without people losing their right to privacy.

Angela Hui: Yes, yeah, exactly. Because like privacy was such a

big thing. And I was really, really worried about it.

Because, you know, I want to make sure everyone were okay

with it as well. And obviously tried to change as much names as

possible to make sure. I think that's the thing I worried about

was just people being able to like track where we lived or

like, ... I mean, with the business is, like, you know, we

used to be on like Google, so you'd be able to like find us

and stuff. But now that is another Chinese family. So yeah,

I think privacy was a big thing, and I worried about that.

Rebecca May Johnson: Maybe you should do some fiction next. It

sounds like you've got the skills for plotting.

Angela Hui: I don't think I do, I don't even know!

Rebecca May Johnson: I don't know if this is on the cards,

but I would really love to watch a TV serialisation or film of

your book.

Lucy Dearlove: Oh my god, same.

Rebecca May Johnson: Can you imagine!

Lucy Dearlove: Thanks so much to Rebecca May Johnson and Angela

Hui, for allowing me to record this. Their respective books,

Small Fires and Takeaway are both out now, and I can't

recommend them both highly enough. You can support Lecker

on Patreon for three pounds a month, and you get access to a

bonus episode every month. This month includes some extra bits

from this conversation and the others that I'm releasing this

month, specifically around recipes and their role within

personal writing, which is something that I'm really

interested in and kind of excited about exploring in that.

It's going to be a great listen if I do say so myself. So make

sure you sign up if you'd like to hear it. Lecker is entirely

listener funded. So Patreon subscriptions are really

important in me being able to continue to make the podcast.

Rebecca was actually a guest on a very early episode of Lecker,

way back in 2016. And in the episode she talked about the

tomato sauce recipe which she writes about cooking over and

over again in Small Fires. I went back and listened to it

again myself recently, and it was really cool to hear kind of

the early gem of the idea taking shape all of those years ago.

I'll link to it in the show notes. If you'd also like to

hear it or to listen again. Music is by Blue Dot Sessions as

ever. Thanks to Ben McDonald, who is Lecker's resident

illustrator. You can see his work on the Lecker Instagram and

Twitter @leckerpodcast. There's two more episodes to come this

month around the same theme of how writers approached telling

personal stories through food. Make sure you subscribe to

listen as soon as they're released. And I'll be back in

your feeds very soon. Thanks for listening.