Gerry (00:11): Welcome to the Seidman mentorship podcast. This is your captain. Speaking on the show. We navigate the voyage of life through the lens of Lakers, some who have just come aboard and others who are well underway. We will speak with experts who will show us the ropes, help us plot a course and recount exhilarating tales of uncharted territory all while promoting lifelong learning agility and a culture of mentorship

Gerry (00:37): Today

Gerry (00:37): On the show, I host a Roundtable of self-identified introverts and extroverts, two students, and two professionals discuss the ways we approach situations, how we are different and how we are the same. I am fascinated by the social scripts. Each style uses to achieve the common goal of success in school, business, and life.

Gerry (01:03): All right, thanks everybody. Uh, joining us for the special podcast on introverts and extroverts in business. And I've been thinking about this for a while and I have our first guest. Who's gonna introduce himself to thank for that. Uh, Phil Sims and Phil and I have kind of, we've been thrust together on two different occasions now, and it came very apparent to me as we were having some conversations that our styles, while we're both successful in business are very, very different. And I wanted to spend time thinking about that, but because this is a mentorship podcast, it's just not us old professionals talking about it. I wanna bring in some students. So I've assembled some folks today who self-identify as these styles. And I wanna talk about how we use those styles in our, either professional life for the professional side, the academics for the student side, and then recognize how we can put these two groups together and work better together, whether it's professionally or academically in the future. So we'll go around the room and introduce ourselves. I'm the captain of the mentorship, Gerry Cook. And it's my honor and privilege to host the podcast and the mentorship program. I did 30 years in, in corporate business in sales and marketing and a lot of PR work. And then I was kind of forced to transition during the pandemic and came to academia and been enjoying my work here, Phil.

Phil (02:19): Yeah, thanks for having me on, Phil Sims, CEO of integrity tree services, attended Grand Valley State back. 2010 is when I graduated with a degree in accounting before kicking my career off in public accounting did that for six years and got a career opportunity to rejoin integrity tree. We call people who leave and come back boomerang. So I am officially a boomerang with integrity tree, been there for seven years, five of which in the CEO capacity.

Gerry (02:51): And you self-identify as an introvert.

Phil (02:53): Yeah, highly functioning introvert.

Gerry (02:55): Got it. And I self-identify as an extrovert, Sophia.

Sophia (02:59): I'm Sophia, I'm a junior at Grand Valley State University right now. I major in marketing and minor in international business. I just finished working at the Seidman advising center and that was fun, but I do identify more as an introvert, not like a super introvert, but like there's ways where I'm extroverted, but I would say definitely I sway more as an introvert.

Gerry (03:22): Great. And Alaina.

Alaina (03:23): And I'm Alaina Borsma. I am going into my junior year at Grand Valley where I'm majoring in human resource management and minor in psychology. Currently I have an internship at Caltex Textron or CWC Textron and yeah, I definitely self-identify as an extrovert and I'm excited, so.

Gerry (03:43): Great. You're energized by social interaction. This is, this, allegedly we're we are, I'm glad you brought up the psychology. We are not psychologists. We're not here to diagnose, treat or suggest any course of treatment for anything we talk about on today's podcast. We're merely talking about how the styles show up. That was my best impression, Phil of the commercial at the end of the, you know, the drug commercial mm-hmm <affirmative> so here we go. <laugh> so, um, what's going around the room and talk about, count your personality type and how do you think it exemplifies or it personifies introversion, extroversion. And how does it show up, professionally or academically Phil?

Phil (04:23): Yeah. From, from a introversion standpoint, I think I find myself very apt to study a room, study the energy of individuals and make sure that I'm very aware of, how I'm being perceived, watching responsiveness very, very closely and not defaulting to an offensive style of communication. It's it, there is a lot of reactionary considerations in the way that I interact with people. And my default and bias is generally, uh, going to be to ask questions first and, and adapt my style based on what those around me, determine is the most effective approach. So I would say both in my, my personal life with friendships, my own wife, and also professionally it's, it's really important to me to understand how I'm coming off and, and be as sensitive as I can be, based on that.

Gerry (05:26): And I noticed Phil, in our interactions, the one of the first times, I guess we've worked together twice in the past, but this most recent iteration, I think after one of our first initial meetings, you had this recap for me. And I'll, I won't forget this where you said, so what my role is, Jerry in this is to be a sounding board for you for, for ideas, and to help support you with specific, you know, initiatives. And I liked that wrap, but I thought it was interesting how you defined you. You wanted to define what it is that your role was, in this personal, this iteration of our relationship. And I wouldn't have thought to do that. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so I recognize that as, oh, what a reflective trait that you had.

Phil (06:05): Yeah. I, I think authority doesn't always mean expertise. And so understanding where you fit is, is critically important to a healthy team and to healthy relationships. And in my perspective.

Gerry (06:22): Super, yeah, Sophia.

Sophia (06:24): I would say that my introversion really shows in a school environment as in more ways of like, I don't look for, or sometimes I look forward to like group projects and stuff, but other times I, I thoroughly enjoy just sitting in class, not having to, you know, volunteer or speak out or any of that. And just kind of sit there and do my work and focus on myself and not really have to worry about communicating with other people, sometimes. And I also, definitely, if I am working in group projects or if I'm hanging out with a big group of people, I definitely can get, my social battery can get drained as people say, like, I definitely don't like how you mentioned earlier, how you can get energized by talking to people. Sometimes that really like tires me out <laugh> and, um, I really sometimes just like working on myself and not having to focus on other people as well.

Gerry (07:18): That classic, uh, introversion/extroversion, where the introvert spending energy to be with people mm-hmm and then needs to recharge. And the extrovert is gaining energy from interacting with people. So can I ask you what your, what your recharge is? What do you do to recharge?

Sophia (07:32): Pretty much just sitting in a room by myself and like going on my phone for a bit, and then I'll usually, or like watching TV, like one of my favorite shows or something, and then I'm able to like get back out there.

Gerry (07:45): <laugh> Right. Later on, I'm gonna ask everybody if, if group work is, is pushed too far in academia and professionally. So think about that. We're gonna come back to, to group work, Alaina.

Alaina (07:57): Um, so I definitely am an extrovert and it shows in my classes and in my jobs, um, I'm always the girl in class who raises her hand for every question. And I, I end up looking like a little teacher's pet, but I just enjoy, um, being the person who can answer the question. And if no one else answers, I'm like, okay, well, I might as well, even if it's wrong, I'll at least be confident in it. And, um, I also like will make connections or, uh, make relationships out in the hallway. Like if we're waiting for class, I'll be like, oh, like what are you majoring in? Or like, um, just ask 'em what their name is and cause the better, you know, people that are in your class, like the more you're able to like find study groups and you're held accountable more just cause you're like, oh, did you do your homework? And they're gonna be like, oh no I didn't. But like if you didn't know them, like you're not gonna care if they know if you did your homework or not. So yeah. That's how it would show up for me. And I always am the one chatting in class. So.

Gerry (08:55): <laugh> So I think you've stolen some of mine because I think I'm the same way. But I also think part of my extroversion is actually a vulnerability almost as a, a defense. Like I feel uncomfortable if I haven't established a relationship with another person. So I did sales for many, many years and in the good old days of sales and I'm talking way back in the eighties and nineties, we had features and benefits selling and there's so many books written about sales. But if you're study any kind of sales training in the past 10 years, this will sound familiar, features and benefits was, you know, here's a pen, the pen clicks, it opens, it, closes, it writes it does everything look at how great this pen is. It's got a clip. It goes in your pocket. That was then. And then we moved on to solution sellings.

Gerry (09:38): Well, I bet you guys didn't. Do you ever have to write something? I bet you do. I bet you have to write, you know what? You need, you need a pen and then you go back to features benefits and it clicks and it does all this. And I was shocked in my last iteration of sales training was called the challenger sale. And there's a book about this. It's very popular right now. And the challenger sale throughout my favorite part of selling, which was relationship to me. I always want a relationship before I ask somebody for something. So to me, telemarketers are annoying. Not because they call me at dinnertime it's cause they launch right into whatever it is they want to do. And my style was I wanted to get to know somebody. I wanna learn about them. I wanna know about their hobbies, all things that I think maybe the introverts find like unnecessary and annoying, but then, then I'm gonna hit you up for what it is I need.

Gerry (10:20): And that worked for me and the challenger sale was no, no, no. The relationship selling doesn't work. Not only do you need to prove a need, but you need to like make that need right now. Some days soon you guys are gonna need to write something and it's gonna be something very important. You don't know it now. And if you don't have the ability to write, you're gonna miss out on whatever it is. And it there's a term for this. It's actually called rational, drowning. It's a terrible, it sounds as terrible as it is. And then you go back into and I have the solution I'm gonna save you. Cause I have a pen and the pen clicks and it writes and all those things. I said that extra version still shows up in me kind of similar to what Alaina said, where I want to, I want to know people and I wanna spend time with people and get to know them.

Gerry (11:01): So the opposite of Sophia. So this week I was very, very busy, very, very tired. And I had a seven o'clock. We had a, the mentorship, student advisory group where I think maybe for the introverts, that would be the last thing you wanna do at the end of a stressful day, I actually gained energy from it. It was fun to see everybody, we all worked together. We parceled out the next thing we're gonna do and we're going move forward on that. And I walked out of that zoom meeting energized and I think understanding and recognizing how either your mentorship partner, your business partner, your personal partner, whatever whoever's in your life, how they operate, could be helpful. And I think often my extroversion is often because if people aren't getting along, that makes me uncomfortable. And that's why I'm thinking like, oh, you know, we could just all get along if we just share our hobbies and interests. So that's where I think it, it comes out on, on my side. The next question is where do you feel that your type really works and succeeds? What's the best kind of work environment for you. And, and what's the opposite of that.

Phil (12:07): So this may sound a little bit like a dichotomy, in light of the introversion. But I, I really enjoy teamwork and I really enjoy others. And I find that while it does require energy, I, I, I would not choose a career path where I were working by myself in my basement. That would be a special form of torture for me. So, it's really about balancing my days and I don't always have complete control over my days and how the balance works. But what I find is, uh, teamwork is very energizing, followed by opportunities to reflect, think and process. And if I have both of those components and dynamics, I find that I'm fulfill, fulfilling my highest and best use to the company or to my personal relationships, et cetera.

Gerry (13:00): Do you schedule that time, Phil?

Phil (13:01): I do. Yeah.

Gerry (13:02): Yeah. So you'll block out time for your reflection. So is it, do you reflect before a meeting, after, both? Where do you, how do you work that.

Phil (13:10): Generally after. And there's a cadence to my week that I've settled into where there are certain blocks of time that are my time and that's progressed quite a bit more of late for me because I didn't, I felt guilty. I didn't feel like that was work. And what I was am learning as a result of, of that practice is it keeps me sharp. It keeps me focused. There's discernments a big part of my job because well, it may feel good to take every good idea as you go down the grocery aisle and put it in the shopping cart, you'll run outta space. And so you, you have to be very thoughtful about, um, your conversations around decisions around organizational commitments, around capacity, things of that nature. And that does require thinking it's not just pure, purely reactionary. And so, so there's, there's both dynamics in the equation for me.

Gerry (14:06): Makes sense. Sophia.

Sophia (14:08): Yeah. I, I really agree with what Phil said with like the balance, because I don't think I could do all work or projects like by myself, cause that would be, a lot. But I definitely think that with introversion, like in school stuff, I think I do best in like individual work. You know, when it says like write an essay or something like that compared to like write a group essay or something like that. You know, I, I feel a lot better when I can just do it by myself cause I'm really good at being able to stay focused. And sometimes I find that working with other people is distracting and that I can, like, I know I can do a good job by myself. And so, and I know I can get it done like during the time period I want to. And so just kind of being able to like grind it out and get it done. By myself sometimes is a lot. I feel like that's where it succeeds most even though teamwork is super important in a work and school environment. But I would say like if you give me a project that if I just do it by myself, it'll be done a lot faster and more efficiently.

Alaina (15:13): Okay. I guess I'll go next. So going into HR, uh that's I mean human resources, you're gonna have to be working in a team and you kind of have to be a little bit of an extrovert. And I've definitely learned that over the summer in my internship. And t's kind of inevitable to have to work with a bunch of people in other teams. So like different departments and different levels of people. And even in classes, like you have to be extroverted to some extent because you have to talk about group projects because every class always has a group project, no matter what class it is. And building those relationships, not only as an introvert or an extrovert like, um, are important because it builds the trust and it improves your communication. So even if you just communicate like, okay, like I am not super like good at this and I don't really wanna do this part of the project, but I will do this other part.

Alaina (16:08): And like someone else can take over and be like, okay, well I am good at that part. Like, and this is what I will do. And like having that communication is like definitely where being an extrovert works the best for me. In other cases where extroversion does not really work for me is you guys have the balance of like, okay, I, will take this time to be by myself and think about things and um, you know, set it aside. But sometimes I feel like I put myself in a position where I can't say no because I'm already have this relationship. And I'm like, yes, I will do that for you. Like, I would love to do that for you. And then I kind of get into a habit of putting too much on my plate and then stressing myself out of like, oh my gosh, I have 12 million things to do today from seven in the morning until nine at night. And I definitely need to get better at balancing, like you guys have mentioned. But I.

Gerry (17:01): Having a little mic collapse that happens screwed on the bottom.

Alaina (17:03): There we go. But yeah, so that would be my, problems and good situations.

Gerry (17:09): Well, I like how you talk about the concessions for that too, because I think we all, nobody's a hundred percent, one style or the other and we make those concessions. I like what you said about the relationship aspect of, of extroversion. Cause I definitely feel that too, that, okay. So I built this relationship with you, likely, you know, from a holistically good standpoint, I'm not, I did my best selling when I was just listening to the client and building that relationship. And then when it made sense for whatever product or service that I had made sense for them, I would tell, "Hey, Mr. Customer, you know, I've known you for a long time. I know your business. And by the way, this is a solution for you that would work. I, I think you should consider it." The other path of that, of what Alaina just said is true. I think for the extrovert too, is I've opened myself up. So that customer called and said, "Hey Jerry, we have this relationship and now I need you to jump in the car and go do this thing right now because you're my rep." And I'm the customer, right. And that's the, I guess the other side of that coin is you leave yourself open in those, those relationships. So you get that mic back on yet.

Alaina (18:08): It's okay. I'll just, <laugh>, I'll just hold it. We'll be good.

Gerry (18:12): Our studio here that has, you know, you've heard me say on the show before it pops up and then it goes away. So nothing's permanent yet. So if anybody wants to, you know, donate a studio that's permanent to Grand Valley State University, boy, I certainly would enjoy it. So throwing that out there, um, that's extraversions asking for random things. Isn't it was that an extraversion thing I just did. <laugh>, let's jump into some practicums and talk about like real situations. So if it's the, and, and Phil, I want you to go back in time to your school days. Actually let's let the students go first on this one and then, and then we'll go. So we'll go, we'll go back around the table the other way, if it's the first week of, of class, what do you do? And, and I think we're gonna find a difference between what the extroverts and introverts would do, Alaina.

Alaina (18:56): So during the first week of class, I will walk into a class and you know, like you'll sit down and I hate sitting in the back of the class. I always sit either like right in front or at least like in the middle. And then, um, usually, you know, someone will sit next to you or like if someone doesn't sit next to me next to me, I'll scootch over and sit next to and be like, hi, like I'm Alaina. <laugh> like, I kind of feel like don't worry sometimes like, hi, like this is me. Um, but then like, I'll like introduce myself and I'll like make some friends in class and like, we'll make a group chat usually. And we'll have that to like ask about homework and stuff. But then with my professors, I'll stay after class and I'll introduce myself and I'll be like, hi, like I'm Alaina.

Alaina (19:35): Um, this is what I'm doing. Like I'm excited for your class. And then I always end up going to their office hours too, because they're so beneficial. And they'll always give you like little hints on your exams, as well. Um, but so that's like me in class and then like an example from this summer, um, I started, I had my first internship and my first day my boss was kind of like, okay, like as the HR intern, like, you know, you're kind of gonna have to facilitate like intern activities. And I was like, oh, well, good thing, cause I like to do that stuff. So our first week, the first day that the rest of the interns got there, I was like, oh, this is where I eat lunch guys. So you should all sit with me. And then we sat there every single day, this summer.

Alaina (20:12): And like all of the managers would walk by and be like, you guys are the first group of interns to ever eat lunch together every day. And I was like, I love that. And so I was super happy that we did that. And then we also I'm like we planned some like after work activities and there, like, it was nice to get to know everyone and you know, just like get that summer started with them. And same with classes. It's good to get like, you know, relationships built right then in the first week. So then you can enjoy the rest of the semester, the rest of the summer and have those. Yeah.

Gerry (20:43): Good. So far I'm batting a thousand the way I think this is gonna go. Sophia?

Sophia (20:47): <laugh> So kind of like Alaina I do, during the first week of classes, I do like to sit in the front. I don't like to sit in the back. Um, I typically do actually try to sit by people because I don't just like sitting and then there's like a huge space between me and other people. But, it really depends on the class for me. If I introduce myself to others, like if it's a bigger class where it's most likely that everybody just kind of sits there and is quiet, I typically don't talk to anybody, but if it's a smaller class, then I definitely will like introduce myself and say like I'm Sophia and then, you know, kind of get a conversation with them cause I feel like the smaller classes always are more likely to also have like group projects and stuff like that. So it's easy to find people soon, sooner than later. Um, and then yeah, once the class is over, I, I don't, I've never talked to the professor before gone to office hours or anything like that once the class is done I'm out of there.

Gerry (21:46): And this is the question that first kicked off Phil and I talking about introversion/extroversion.

Phil (21:53): Yeah.

Sophia (21:53): Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Phil (21:55): So as a student, I was with any new classroom setting, I would, I would definitely read the room and, I am not the type to enjoy sitting way in the back because I was sincerely engaged in wanting to be able to learn and, and, and appear accordingly. I also find that I didn't sit by myself or have space between, I would just, you know, sit next to whoever that was kind of in the zone where I felt comfortable. And I would get to know whoever that was throughout the course of the semester. My mindset at the time was it took me quite a while to figure out what I wanted to do when I grew up. So by the time I was at Grand Valley, uh, I was already married and basically Grand Valley was a job to get to the other side of what I really wanted to do.

Phil (22:43): And so I had a different mindset back when I was attending college, then I would have had today and what I would have done differently, today is a lot more engagement with professors and I would've invested a lot more energy into building relationships with those that were in the core classes related to my career path. Maybe not every class, but I've met so many amazing Grand Valley students that I either was in class with or missed by a year or two that are just doing some super cool things in their career. And I would've been able to keep up with that journey along the way, had I established those relationships at Grand Valley and I, I feel to a degree like I'm playing catch up now as I'm meeting more people and obviously the, the CPA route, if you're, uh, on the assurance side of the practice, you are signing up to travel, to work on teams in rooms like this, where you're in a room for 12, 14, 16 hours a day together. And, it taught me being forced to do that. Taught me things about myself that I had made assumptions on that were wrong. And, and there are elements of, that's why I say highly functioning introvert is there are elements where I do get energy from others and, and some things that frankly, if I had it to do over again, I would've had a very different mentality and mindset towards my time at Grand Valley.

Gerry (24:07): It's interesting, to hear the, the different styles. And, and this was the question that really started me thinking, because I had said to Phil, when I had a mentee, I would always tell my mentee, number one week one, go get a business card. That says you're a student at Grand Valley and has your name on it. And I would tell my mentees, I was completely oblivious to whether they were introverts/extroverts. This was the way to do it. And I would have my mentees and they were famous for it after class, not only go up and do that introduction but hand that professor their business card. And I'm like, and now we're gonna follow up in office hours. And I would ask my mentee, who's your favorite professor this semester. I wanna take 'em to lunch and we'd go out and have that business lunch and start fostering that connection to the next connection, the next connection, which was very heavy handed of me.

Gerry (24:51): <laugh> and I'm not advising that you do that. I'm advising having a conversation to figure out where your mentees is at and, and figure that out. But yes, absolutely what Alaina had said that to do that, but uh, completely understanding. And when I asked Phil that question, the first time he said to me, why would I do that? That's a, that's a waste of professor's time. I wouldn't go to their office hours unless I had something I generally needed. And I hadn't thought about it that way, because again, I want to build that relationship or get that hint that I think Alaina, I think sometimes the extroversion thing is we're building this relationship. And I think sometimes as an extrovert, I push that onto other people and then they just feel obligated. And I never realized until much later in my career, how that's like annoying to a lot of people because you're, you're almost forcing this obligation upon them that they're not necessarily accepting.

Gerry (25:39): And so that came, uh, later on, I do wanna represent the people in the back of the room. <laugh> I sat in the back of the room, especially in undergrad, but no graduate school. I sat in the back too, but, I liked to see the other people and I didn't like people behind me or talking about me. So maybe that's some other, <laugh> maybe that's some other part that probably doesn't show up an extraversion, but I like to see the people, especially in those theater style classrooms, I like to kind of sit in the back and see people and kind of read that room of interacting. I also found that in those situations when I was called upon and I saw this in my sales style too, I like to tell stories. So, I like to frame things in a story and a lot of professors you'll find or train this way, they'll start every one of their lectures with a story, and go from there.

Gerry (26:30): And I think that might be part of my extraversion as well, that shows up in the academic sphere. And that's recently in the NBA, we talked about that specifically of when you're doing a formal presentation and do start, you know, know with a story and, and kind of have a hook into that. So, um, thank you for that. I think we added a thousand. That one, I was pretty sure that was kind of how that was gonna, uh, turn out and turn up. Is there too much extraversion push these days? Is there not enough introversion push? Should we, you know, I think about mindfulness and I think about meditation and I think about what that means in yoga and how that has become more important yet when I'm sitting in classes or I'm talking to students, their bemoaning group work. And I was watching, preparing for this reading and watching a Ted Talk introversion in the introverted self-identifying speaker said, just, can we please stop the group work? Can we just stop the group work? So I, I wanna go around, I wanna hear your opinions kind of about group work and the professional academic space. And is it too much and are we demanding too much extroversion from people and not teaching introversion?

Phil (27:43): I think that drawing from what I said at the last answer to the question, I learned a lot about myself because of the career path that I chose, that forced me into situations that I otherwise would not have chosen to go into. And so with that, as the context, I think that group work is very important in the sense that it does force particularly introverts into scenarios that they need to learn about themselves through and the complete absence of group work. I would be concerned that it, it would be, removing a, a vehicle that facilitates, relationships with people that you made understand. You may not even know if you like them or not. You're forced to, you're forced to learn styles. You're forced to learn how to hold a group accountable. You're, there are so many things from a skillset standpoint that I don't know how you would fill that void elsewhere. So I would be a proponent of group work and drawing from a previous conversation that we had outside of this podcast, but it has to be meaningful group work, not, not BS group work, but something that has a real, a real sense of alignment and a real sense of value for the participants in the group, because then you can unify around something. And there's a sense of momentum where then within the margins of all of that, you're, you're learning about yourself.

Sophia (29:09): Yeah, no, I totally agree with Phil. I don't think that extroversion is getting pushed too much because even though I enjoy doing work by myself, it's not how life goes. You have to work with others and that's super important. And so, I mean, I've had a fair deal of group projects, but I it's been honestly a very equal balance of individual work and group work. And I think it's super important to make relationships, especially like in college when you're not like in high school, you're doing group projects like with your friends, but in college, you're meeting strangers and then having to, you know, work around them and like kind of adjust yourself to their personality types and see what works best, which is exactly what would happen once I graduate and then go work someplace. I'm gonna have to meet all these new people and learn how to work with them and all that. Like, it's a very important skill that I'm glad I definitely have developed more since I got to college with becoming more willing to work with people and doing better at working with people. And yeah, so I definitely it's super important and I don't think it's, getting pushed too much cause they're really helping people, be prepared for the real world.

Alaina (30:17): Yeah. I definitely agree with, helping prepare people for the real world. Like in all of your jobs, you're gonna be working with lots of people and obviously we've all had group projects and classes and sometimes you'll have a group project where it's not going good and someone doesn't hold up their end of the stick and it teaches you how to navigate through those situations and how to have those awkward conversations of, "Hey dude, like you're not, you're not holding. Like you're part of the bargain up." I guess. And like, we really need this, like our final grade relies on this and like, I don't understand why you're not doing it. And, and it has, it's been awkward when you have to like sometimes get professors involved or like, just be like, okay, well I guess I'm doing it. And then I'm gonna have to like make a note that you didn't do anything and that will happen in your future too.

Alaina (31:07): Like in your careers, like you're gonna have to have those awkward conversations. And I think that's been, what's been most beneficial to me about group project is like navigating the awkwardness or like the bad parts of group con or group, um, projects, cause I mean you can get project done and be like, okay, well that was easy, but you don't really learn much from it other than like, okay, like we all did our part and it was good, but when something goes wrong, like that's when you learn. And that's how like, you're like, okay, now I know how to deal with that in the future. And that's what I've liked about them.

Gerry (31:39): Yeah. I think group project group work is not going away. I wonder if we don't spend any time and I think it's, uh, I I've been very well traveled. I've been very fortunate, uh, and definitely education systems in the west. I think we spend a lot of time on this and we spend time on case study and organizational behavior when I've traveled to other places. I notice, especially in primary schools, uh, people learn to spend time with themselves, learn those concentration skills and they learn that. And then they integrate later on then I'm, I think about myself personally and I think COVID did a big piece of it. And then grad school probably finished me off where I noticed I had introversion, uh, tendencies that I ignored, uh, that were actually very beneficial to take that time to reflect. And I'm gonna take something out of Phil's book and I just, I have blocked time, um, literally with nothing in there and, um, I'll be an extrovert and I'll tell my quick story, but, uh, there's a, there's a famous parable about, uh, a farmer who runs a dairy farm and he, uh, calls up a high powered business consultant and says, you know, I wanna make my business better.

Gerry (32:47): And I hear consulting is the latest, greatest thing. So why don't you come out and consult? So he pays a consultant, $10,000 and a consultant comes out, spends a week. And at the end of the week, consultant comes to present his case and he sets up a great big PowerPoint machine in inside the milking parlor after morning milking. And he puts a slide up there and he says, this is a picture of your cows being milked. And you do this many pounds of milk and this is what it sells for. And he goes, I figured out how you can triple your output farmers like I'm listening. He says, you need to do more milking. He's says, well, what do you mean? He says, well, look at this, pulls up the next slide. There's a cow laying in a pasture chewing its cud. He says these cows, they lay around for 12 hours a day and then you bring 'em in here to milk.

Gerry (33:31): If you just milk, 'em more, you make more money. Well of course, you know what this story is going and the consultant gets fired. The cow's sitting, laying down chewing, its cud is how it makes milk. Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I don't spend a ton of time, I guess, chewing my own cud, thinking about my own thoughts and, and putting that together. And as you rise up in the ranks of any organization, if you want more responsibility, you have to find time for it. And if I'm pulled down and Phil and I talk about this all the time and Phil coaches me on this, if I get pulled down into the tactical things, I feel like I'm busy cause I'm doing something, but I'm not being efficient by not delegating out the tasks, using the resources and the people that are helping me because I want to do the work cause it feels good to do the work and accomplish things. And I think that's, that's my takeaway as we went through this process. So I want to go around one more time and I want to kind of wrap with your thoughts on introversion and extroversion as people create these mentorships. So we're in the week of pairing right now. So people are gonna be getting together very soon. What have you taken away from this conversation or your thoughts on it that you think might apply to mentoring?

Phil (34:36): My mentality is kind of parallel to the analogy that if you rolled into a doctor's office looking for a solution and the doctor was prescribing medication and prescribing solutions before even asking you about your symptoms, asking you about your, your life, your lifestyle, things that maybe, um, very important pieces of data, uh, is my worst fear for a mentoring relationship where you're not as, as the men-, the pro mentor, you're showing up thinking that you have all of the answers and you also know the answers that are being sought and, and you may not know. And so we often reflect on for me when I was in college, just the, the very basic need of having somebody available to help you with uncertainty, to help you with embarrassing questions, to help you navigate how to approach certain conversations or, uh, if that is not appealing to facilitate connections based on what your career desires may be.

Phil (35:46): Um, every single opportunity has a person attached to it. If you think about it. So you're, you're a conduit of your own personal knowledge and the, the network of knowledge that exists around you as a, a pro mentor. And I think engaging with that in mind is, is really the point of why it felt important to talk about these dynamics because, um, if the, if it's about a knowledge transfer, that's what the whole thought around mentorship is knowledge and experience transfer. Just make sure you know, your audience and, and what they're seeking and desiring rather than, um, you know, telling everybody to get a business card. For example, I mean that wouldn't have been my style and we talk really honestly about that with each other. And I love that we can have conversations like that, but that's, that's the reality is there's different. There's different approaches that work for different people and you gotta, you gotta be inquisitive if you're really gonna meet the need that's being sought. And it's impossible to define you. You would be writing textbooks of information on how to navigate the human being nuances around this. When the simple answer is just ask the question, it, it, it removes a lot of burden from you administering the program to just make sure that that mindset is, is set appropriately and, uh, is positioned for success, which is meaningful growth and meaningful connections, meaningful opportunity as a result of time spent.

Sophia (37:14): Yeah, I think no matter what or, um, personality type you are, anybody can get along just fine and build a relationship. And so I think it's super important that mentorship, that you build a strong relationship with somebody and you understand each other and you know, that you understand each other, cause that's so important and just to be able to work together and um, be able to figure things out. And I also think with mentorship, it helps a lot because maybe if you're, um, I'm an introvert paired with an extrovert, it really helps me push to do things that are outta my comfort zone and vice versa. Like then maybe extroverts can be like, oh, maybe I should take a break and you know, kind of spend time by myself. Maybe that's a good idea or just spend time with my mentor instead of like in a big group of people. It definitely, um, no matter what personality type you are, I think each like, even if it's like introvert, introvert, extrovert extrovert, or like introvert extrovert, you all can learn something different from each other and still build on those relationships and help each other push and, um, do better with building relationships.

Alaina (38:24): That was very well said of both of you and you took a lot of my ideas. Um, but I think just having like that initial conversation and asking the questions of like, okay, like how do you go about like your normal, uh, you know, semester, if we're talking about like mentoring students, um, and being able to navigate like, and learn from each other and being able to ask questions to each other, like, how do you do in this situation? Like, this is how I would do it, but like how would you, and, um, just learning from each other and knowing that like both the mentee and mentor can learn from each other and um, take things away and be like, okay, yeah, maybe I should implement that into my life. And um, but also giving advice too, of how to step out of your comfort zone because that's, that's where you really learn is out of your comfort zone. So

Gerry (39:08): I heard you say relationships first and I completely agree with that. No mentoring happens, especially what I would call deep mentoring or the really exciting part of mentoring is until a relationship is established. So too bad challenger sales book, um, relationships win <laugh> in this kind of, uh, situation being vulnerable, I think. And, uh, being open with, you know, how you're feeling, what you're feeling. Um, and for me it's sometimes saying, I don't know. So I think part of what Phil was talking about earlier, when you come as the mentor and we say this in the handbook or saying it on the podcast, I say in trainings, you're not supposed to have all the answers. And if you do, you might be going about it incorrectly and the most interesting mentoring relationships. And if you go back and listen to our last episode where we had the round table, you'll hear that from our pro mentors that got as much out of it or got recharged for that.

Gerry (40:06): And that's why we tell pro mentors, like I don't have time if you don't have time, you need to mentor because you need that recharge continuous communication. I heard you talk about, I think that's so important in any relationship and having that time, whether Lynn talked about, you know, calling somebody to the table that that's not holding up their end of the bargain or recognizing something in your, your partner, that's saying, you know, Hey, are you okay with that? Or this is the way I'm thinking, or what are you feeling? Or you try to read the room, as Phil said, I think that's so important. And that final piece that I'll reiterate is being open to learning from each other. And that's, what's important, but that's also, I think what makes mentorship so exciting. If you go back for millennia human beings as a tribe, we've been kind of together, this is how we best evolve to succeed to where we are, is when we work together, uh, and not apart and figuring out how to do that. So I really appreciate the conversation today that we've had. Um, I, I learned a lot about this as we continue to go forward, uh, with the mentorship program. And hopefully you folks listening out there have got some, uh, ideas for your next, uh, piece of conversation with anybody. Um, because mentorship, uh, spans of course, outside of this, it's, it's a human, it's a human activity. It's not just a, you know, sometime activity. So I appreciate, uh, everybody coming out for the podcast and uh, thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Gerry (41:35): Thank you for sailing along on this episode of the Seidman mentorship podcast, for more information on the Seidman school of business mentorship program at Grand Valley State university set your heading to www.gvsu.edu forge slash Seidman. If you have a story to tell, know someone we should interview, have questions or comments, email us at go the number two GV biz spelled B I Z at gvsu.edu until next time, keep a weathered eye on the horizon and we wish you fair winds so long.