Erin: I think it can be hard sometimes to accept when we're struggling with mental

health, especially in moments in life.

When we feel like we should be happy.

Traveling is one of those moments.

It's meant to be carefree and exciting.

And this is often reinforced by the travel content that we see online.

But this might make it hard to recognize when we're struggling, because

there's this inherent expectation that while we're traveling, everything

is perfect and everything is great.

So what happens when everything isn't great?

And what does it feel like to travel while depressed?

This is Alpaca My Bags, the responsible travel podcast here

to help you travel in a way that's better for you and for the planet.

I'm Erin Hynes travel writer, accompanied as always by my producer, Kattie Laur.

And today we're chatting with Tammy Tran.

Tammy is a sky diver, TikToker, mental health advocate, and a future marathon

runner here to talk with us about the reality of traveling while depressed.

Go ahead and hit the follow button right now If you haven't already.

Kattie: And if you wanna stay connected with us, you can also

follow us on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter at @ alpaca my bags pod.

We are also on Patreon where you can support us financially and

help us keep this podcast going.

Uh, so the link for that is in our show notes.

Erin: We also always, always love to hear from you so you can DM

us or email us anytime you want.

All of our contact info is in the show notes.

So please do reach out.

Now, before we get started, I wanted to share a quick content warning.

We'll be talking about mental health and depression today.

So if this is a sensitive topic for you, feel free to skip this episode

and we'll see you in the next one.

Kattie: Okay Erin, so have you ever felt sad while traveling or

not so great in the mental health?

Erin: Oh, yeah, definitely.

I would say it happens more on long haul trips, so trips where

I'm spending months abroad.

Um, as you know, I've done several trips where I was gone

for up to nine months at a time.

And on those trips, you really like settle in to traveling.

And so there's more space for you to feel the ups and downs of your emotions.

Whereas like on a, on a vacation that's like 10 days, two weeks, one

week, all of it is thrilling because it's like a very designated break.

So yeah, I do find on longer trips.

I tend to feel sadness more or even like more depression or more anxiety.

I always remember this period when I was solo traveling across

Europe, I was really young.

I think.

22.

And I just went through this dry period where I wasn't meeting really great

people in the hostels I was staying in.

So I felt very lonely.

Normally I had no problem making friends in hostels, but there was

like a three week period where I just was not meeting people.

I was also in an expensive part of the country.

So the hospteld weren't as busy.

So yeah, there was just this dry spell.

And I remember sitting on a train writing in my journal about how sad I was.

Kattie: Oh no!

Erin: And I just, I missed my family.

I missed my friends and I just kind of sat in it.

Like I sat in those feelings for a solid week or two, but

eventually things bounced back.

I started to feel good again.

It was just a low and I think that's natural, especially on, on a long trip.

Other times I felt sad just for very literal reasons.

For example, when we were in, uh, Vietnam, I lost my wallet, which is so silly.

It wasn't even pick pocketed.

I just lost it.

and, uh, I have a lot of trouble accepting when I make mistakes like

that, because in my brain I can't can't accept the fact that I did it to myself.

And so I was a wreck for a solid week and Lucas was like, "this is -- it's okay.

Like, you're gonna get new credit cards and debit cards, like everything is okay".

But I had a really hard time getting over that and definitely felt

very, very sad for a solid week.

Maybe more

. Kattie: I mean, I'd be the exact same way.

I wouldn't be happy again until I have actual brand new credit cards in my hands.

Erin: Yes.

That make me less worried.

And to be fair, this is a very valid thing to say.

Lucas kept being like, "you have me and I have money".

Kattie: No, but what if you die, Lucas, what do I do?

Erin: Yeah.

So, so yeah, those are a few examples.

How about you?

Kattie: Uh, okay.

Well, you know, my only vivid memory of being sad while traveling, it feels

trivial to say, but it happened back when I was in high school, I was in grade

11 and we had this really big, exciting France and Italy trip planned with the

school with the people in my class.

And a week before my first boyfriend ever broke up with me.

And like I was devastated.

Erin: Oh no.

Kattie: And I have this like vivid memory of just being on the bus, traveling

through Nice, looking out the window, at the back of the bus with like my

iPod in my ears, listening to sad music.

And it was raining outside.

I was like trying to like, like I was welling up with tears on this bus.

It was a big deal for me.

And I felt, I just remembered.

I felt especially sad because it felt like none of my friends really

were there for me in this time.

Oh, my boyfriend was kind of from out of our friend group.

He was in a different friend group in our high school.

So people didn't really know him too well, so they just didn't take our breakup

seriously or our relationship seriously.

So I was pretty bummed about that, that I didn't think any of my friends

were really looking out for me.

So it was tough.

I felt very alone in that instance, but being the person

that I am, I somehow bounced back from it because optimism, right?

Like that's just where I end up in life is just like, whatever.

Just power through it.

Everything will be okay.

Which is not a good mental health space to always be in.

Okay.

Yeah.

Sometimes you just gotta sit in the feelings.

Erin: Yeah.

High school breakups are hard.

Kattie: It was brutal.

Erin: They hit different, especially that first one.

I actually, you sparked a memory of a TikTok that I saw recently,

and I wish I had saved it.

I don't think I did, but this talker, I wish I could credit her, but I, I

can't remember who posted it was talking about how toxic positivity is an issue

in the travel space, especially online.

And I thought this was such an interesting way to frame it because

that's essentially what we're talking about in this episode about how we have

this tendency to frame and show our travel like it's all like happiness.

So yeah, I just thought that was an interesting phrase to describe it and

totally, and I think it, it actually is the perfect description, cuz that

has been a lot of my experience in looking at travel content online.

This actually departs a bit from the mental health discussion, but I

think it's an interesting angle to talk about too, because this video

got me thinking about how you can be catfished by places that you visit.

Kattie: Oh, interesting.

Erin: So there have been places that I've gone to go that I've seen on social media.

And when I actually got there myself, I felt underwhelmed

because it was shown differently.

Um, some of it is just like about perspective in like camera angles

literally, but other times it's just people hyping up a place so much and

showing it in a certain way that you have these like very, very high expectations.

And then you get there and your experience is not the same, or like

it might even extend to mental health.

Cuz if you, if you go to the Taj Mahal and you're not feeling great, your

experience might not be as great as like what you saw online portrayed.

So I just thought that was an interesting angle to talk about

this as well, but I don't know.

In this episode, we're gonna focus more on mental health.

Tammy, you are the first TikToker we're talking to.

This is very exciting.

I came across your videos on TikTok and I was immediately drawn into them.

Actually, I think that Kattie sent me one of your videos and in it, you were

traveling around the world, living this life that obviously a lot of people

dream of, but in your videos, you were so forward with the fact that you were

simultaneously struggling with depression.

Could you explain how you got started sharing these like very

vulnerable and honest videos?

Tammy: The reason I started sharing them was because.

I knew that vulnerability was kind of the key in like the way out of it.

And it's kind of like knowing that exercise is good for you,

but not really exercising.

And so it was the first time that I had, I had actually experienced depression and

I just knew that all of my past coping mechanisms in all of my past, you know,

habits just wouldn't work this time.

But I remember like that first video I uploaded.

So uncomfortable.

I had a visceral reaction to posting it.

Yeah.

And it made me so nervous because it was the most vulnerable thing

that I had ever posted at that time.

That's pretty much why I posted it was just cuz I knew it was good for me.

And I knew the uncomfortable would be the key, not knowing what to do.

I escaped, I embarked on a month long solo Europe trip.

I went to nine countries and while I had a great time making

friends and seeing the world.

I was horribly sad for most of it though.

My depression wasn't magically gone from traveling.

I did start my healing journey on that trip.

When I came back, I was ready to finally stop grieving and begin

doing the work to find myself again, even through therapy, waking up

early, going to the gym and reading.

I still feel like shit.

If there's anything I learned this year, it's the fact that I never

want to feel this shitty again.

Erin: It's almost like it was a public diary post or like journal post.

But I love that you frame vulnerability as sort of the first step in your own

journey, because in my own mental health journey, like I can fully relate to that.

I struggled with anxiety for years, and I only started getting better when

I was able to like speak it out loud.

I probably knew for like two to three years that I was really

struggling and needed help.

But did not speak it out loud.

And it was like the moment when I was able to say it to someone, to my

partner, and then later to a doctor to get like medical help that I

actually started to accept it and like work really hard on getting better.

I think when talking about mental health, it's really important to

describe what it feels like because everyone's experience is so different.

But also I think if you're a person who hasn't experienced it, it's hard to

understand what the experience is like.

So I was hoping you could describe what depression feels like for you.

Tammy: Yeah.

It's kind of interesting because I never thought I was the type of person to be

predisposed to depression or anxiety.

My whole life I had dealt with a bunch of trauma, um, as a kid, but I

dealt it in such a way that it never made me feel like I was depressed.

Like outright depressed.

So I kind of see both sides of the coin where I didn't think I was depressed

and then it kind of hit me and I was like, oh, that's depression.

So for me, it was kind of sudden, and it wasn't something that like, I needed to go

get a diagnosis for, because it was just so obvious that this is depression because

I wasn't performing like I used to.

I wasn't being productive.

I wasn't happy, I was kind of a jumbled mess, but the best way I can describe

depression is more on the physical terms, such a heavy feeling on your chest.

When you're thinking about mental health, it's, you know, everyone

wants to relate it to the mind and the psyche and stuff like that.

And it's just so complex.

I boiled it down to where I felt it in my body.

And so like, my body was just like, it felt so tired all the time.

I was fatigued.

Um, very lethargic and my body was tight and especially on my chest, it

just felt like, you know, when you get that bad news, your, you know,

stomach drops and you're -- the whole body is like, whoa, that's the

best way that I could describe it.

But it was constant.

It was every single day, every single hour, every single minute.

And you're like, when is it going to end.

It kind of feels like a rock on your chest, is how I would describe it.

Erin: I really relate to that description.

I've told people the same thing that at least for me personally, my anxiety

felt like, like I was sick to my stomach 24/7, and it just never stopped.

And I , for the longest time, I was like, oh, everyone exists this way.

This is just how you feel if you're a human, but like, it's not

. Tammy: I think I saw a TikToker.

It was like, "what's the normal amount of pain that you feel every day?"

And like the doctor's like, "Zero.

You're not supposed to feel any pain at all."

You know, it's.

Oh,

, Erin: it's so hard because it's one of those things that like, if it's your

lived experience for a prolonged period of time, it just it's normal for you.

Tammy: Yes.

Erin: So for anyone who might be less familiar with depression and anxiety,

aside from your personal experience, what would you say are common symptoms of it

and how can a person know if they have it?

Tammy: I think the most common symptoms would be.

It's not very sudden, but it kind of creeps up subtly on you.

And then all of a sudden you're like, when did this happen?

But like a loss for interest in pretty much anything.

Some of my hobbies was, you know, obviously traveling the world and

another one of my hobbies is skydiving.

And I remember one time I was literally jumping out of a plane

and I was like, "I'm bored.

I don't wanna do this anymore".

Like, how does that happen when you're literally jumping out of an

airplane, doing the most, you know, exciting thing you could do, and then

you just don't appreciate it anymore.

And I remember, you know, I went on like a whole Europe tour when I was

majorly depressed and I was staring at like, I don't know the Coliseum in Rome.

And I was like, "it's there, that's a building."

So a loss for interest can be as extreme as that.

Or it can be as simple as, you know, your coffee doesn't taste

the same anymore and you don't get excited to brew it up anymore.

And I think that's like the most dangerous part of it all is, life doesn't feel like

it's worth living because of those simple pleasures in life doesn't bring you joy.

And so essentially nothing brings you joy and you feel

kind of like it's all worthless.

So I think loss of interest is a huge one and I'm sure there's plenty more, but

that was one that really stuck out to me.

Erin: mm-hmm I definitely experienced that as well.

And I would say the other big one is that I've noticed and in talking with

friends, they've experienced this as well.

It's when it starts to like impact your relationships with other people,

especially people close to you.

Cuz a big turning point for me was when my partner said to me, this

is a problem for our relationship.

And like it's hard for me to be in love with you when you're not helping yourself.

And it was really, really hard, but that was the evidence that it

was really getting to a bad place.

And I know a lot of other people that have gotten to that state as well, where

it's like, okay, now it's starting to impact how I relate to my family, my

friends and those relationships are suffering because of, of my mental health.

Tammy: I heavily relate to that one as well.

And virtually all of my relationships were kind of non-existent because

typically depressed peopl, I won't speak for everyone, but at least for me, I had

a very high tendency to self isolate.

And that's just what made me feel like, like, I don't wanna be a burden

on other people and that's a very common thing for people to say, but it

creates more problems than fixes it.

So, uh, yeah, I really relate to that one.

Erin: I know that in my own life, I have definitely had the tendency

to turn to travel as an escape.

I've noticed looking back, especially all throughout my twenties, there are like

definite correlations between moments in my life, where I was mentally struggling

and trips that I took similar to you.

None of those trips were quick fix.

So I wanted to ask, how did you find yourself traveling while

you were coping with depression?

How was it different from your experience, like pre-depression?

Tammy: The worl -- I saw the world in a different way, and I can't really describe

specifically how it just felt different.

I remember I was, you know, sitting in Portugal for like a really quick

layover and I was just staring out at the sea and I was like, "this

is all that there is to life".

Prior to that, I would've been like, "oh my gosh, look at these people , um, having

so much fun, I have X amount of hours in this country, because it's a layover.

What can I go do what foods can I go try?

What activities, could I go do?"

But when I was depressed, all I did was stare out at that sea for 10 hours.

Like quite literally.

And I reflected on everything that was going inside internally and the world

just didn't seem like the world anymore.

It seemed like everything that was in my mind was the world.

So pre depression, it was like, I saw things more externally and I saw things

for face value and for what it was.

But when I was depressed, I saw things much more on a much like deeper level,

not necessarily in a good way, because, you know, I was just thinking about how

the world is so big, but here I am just not really experiencing the most of it.

And didn't think I could ever experience it.

Like I could before.

Erin: And would you say that, like, pre-depression, you found a lot of

joy in like experiencing the external world while you were traveling?

Tammy: I think it was definitely kind of like a dopamine hit for me.

I was heavily addicted to travel and just like all the exciting things.

And I mean, I still am, but it was like, oh, I want to get the

next experience I wanna get, you know, I wanna elevate my trips.

I want to experience more.

I wanna meet people more.

I wanna just do more, more, more.

Uh, versus post depression like, you know, there would be some days I would

stay in my hotel room for the entire day and not experience the city at all.

And I didn't care about it at all, so.

Erin: That's really interesting.

I like, I like how you described the desire for more and more

and more, cuz that I see that a lot in the travel community.

And I think I was like that too.

When I was like younger and traveling, I had this like obsession

with seeing as much as possible.

And I feel like as I've gotten older, I've gotten a lot better at just

taking a slow approach to travel.

But it's kind of like, you just wanna tick things off and you think that

like every new thing you see will like give you more joy and happiness.

I also wanted to ask cuz Kattie, Kattie just messaged me.

She was like, "we should ask, what is pre-depression?"

Like, would you think of a pre-depression phase?

Or would you say that you were kind of in it for a long time or maybe forever?

Tammy: So what's funny is one of my therapists.

The first therapist I had ever seen.

She was like, I think you had low level depression, like your whole life.

And I was like, what do you mean?

I was fine.

Like if I take a look back at my life pre-depression or whatever you wanna

call it, I had a very privileged life.

And, it was outstanding.

I accomplished a lot.

I felt like I was doing the things I needed to do, you know, on paper.

It was a good life, but you know, there's always a dark side to everything.

And I didn't realize that I had suppressed a lot of my trauma

and it didn't come up until now.

Basically, so like for a decade, I had just basically forgotten

all of my childhood trauma and I never dealt with it.

And I had always felt a sense of emptiness in my life.

I always thought I had like a very good emotional homeostasis, right?

Like I was never a roller coaster.

I could manage my emotions very well and I could cope with them very well.

Uh, but what I realized was I was just empty.

I, I wasn't too happy.

I wasn't too depressed.

I was just neutral.

And in a way that made me feel kind of depressed.

And I think that's why my therapist said I had experienced a low level depression

my whole life, without even realizing it.

Kind of what we said, like it was a baseline.

I just was so used to it.

It wasn't until I read the book, uh, Running On Empty by Jonice Webb.

I believe that it made me realize I hadn't been living the way that

I needed to live and experiencing my emotions the way I needed to.

So I was always constantly empty and that's why I am kind of an extreme person.

I look to travel to fulfill that void.

I go skydiving to fulfill like a fun, fast paced energy.

And you know, there's still be times when it wasn't enough for me.

And it's because that I had always been empty pre-depression.

So I think depression was actually a gift to me because it made

me realize that aspect, which I never would've guessed before.

Kattie: I only asked, because I wasn't sure if like some, you know, people

are born with like mental health.

Like this is just the way their brains are wired.

So I was, and then some people think it's, you know, triggered by some crazy event or

something that just happens in your life.

So you just never know.

So I just wanted to clarify that, I guess and just give you the background.

Erin: Well, and I think part of it too, is it's a different experience for everyone.

And I know that like my own therapist has said to me that, especially as you get

older, like anything that's preexisting with mental health can get worse.

Cuz I do think like I have had anxiety my whole life, but it only started

to get bad in my twenties, which apparently for women is really normal.

And also just that like it can go up and down.

Like I was on an SSRI for almost three years and now I'm off it.

But I've like fully accepted that I might go back on it in

the future because it works.

And if I need that, I'll use it.

But like, it's not like, oh, bam, you took an SSRI.

You're fixed now.

Like never gonna have problems again in your life.

Tammy: That's the thing about mental health?

It's a, it's a constant battle for sure.

There's no one cure.

Erin: Yeah.

I think it's really hard sometimes to accept when we're struggling with

mental health, particularly in the bad moments, especially in moments where we

feel like we're supposed to be happy.

And traveling is definitely one of those moments.

It's like billed as this experience that is carefree and exciting.

And I think this is super reinforced by the content we see online, which is

why I was so happy to see your content.

But I think this can also contribute to making it harder for people to

recognize when they're struggling, because there's this inherent expectation

that especially when you're traveling, like there's no way you could be

experiencing depression or anxiety.

Was it hard for you to come to that realization, like personally?

Tammy: In my case, it wasn't a hard thing to realize because it was

triggered by a traumatic event.

And it was something that changed my whole life in a matter of like

a couple days to a couple of weeks.

And so it wasn't like something that crept up on me and was like,

whoa, why am I, why can't I do the same things that I could do before?

Why am I not enjoying the same things?

It was very apparent that, um, it was triggered by this

specific event in my life.

So it did take me a little bit of time to come to terms that I needed help

though, because I'm that person in my friend's lives that they come to for help.

And I've always been like a mental health advocate.

I'm kind of like hyper independent and it's not the best thing in

the world because, you know, we all need help in this lifetime.

And so it did take me a couple months to actually like, you

know, get the help that I needed.

Um, so the way that I realized it was, you know, a couple days went by

and I couldn't shake that feeling.

And usually I would be very good at like suppressing my feelings and being

okay, or, you know, back to emotional emptiness, which to me was my baseline.

And when I realized I couldn't get back to that baseline after a

couple days after a couple weeks, that's when I decided to go travel.

Actually, that's not true.

I had already planned this trip, but I decided to take it anyway, but that trip

made me realize that I was very depressed because literally I would be out in

the streets in the most beautiful city.

And then I would like a tear would like come build up.

And I was like, why am I about to cry right now?

Like I'm literally out in the world eating some really good

food and I just, I wanna cry.

Yeah.

Um, so that's, that's how I realized.

Just the most random times I would like want to burst out in tears.

Erin: Yeah.

I, I shouldn't laugh about this because it's actually very dark but I will

share that a couple years ago, a friend of mine passed away very suddenly.

And it was very tragic.

I was meant to go backpack around Cuba for three weeks with a friend.

And two days before the trip, I was like, I cannot go on this trip.

Like, I, I was such a wreck and he convinced me to go.

He was like, "no, like you should go on the trip.

It'll help clear you mind, especially in Cuba, cuz there's no internet.

So you won't be able to like be scrolling online and seeing

what other people are saying".

It did help, but there were definitely many days where I was literally

bawling on the street corner in these like little towns in Cuba and

people were just staring at me and my friend is just there holding me.

And it's funny because when we started the trip, he was like, "I know that it's

gonna be hard and you're probably gonna cry a lot and we're gonna need to have

a lot of heavy moments, but that's okay.

I'm up for this".

He was awesome.

But yeah, crying in public.

Definitely been there.

Tammy: It's a, it's a different type of pain.

yeah.

You don't even care that you're trying instead of random strangers.

Yeah.

Erin: Kattie, as you know, travel for me does not always go according to plan.

Kattie: Oh, yes, I am well aware.

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The link is in our show notes.

So now you're traveling.

You're depressed.

How did you address it?

Did you figure out a way to continue traveling?

Was your solution to go home?

Like, what were your next steps?

Tammy: So there was a definite end date to my trip.

This was pre-planned.

Um, and like the trauma came right before the trip, like a

couple weeks right before it.

And so it wasn't like, oh, I'm gonna go buy a one way ticket.

Go see where my life takes me, but it was a longer trip.

It wasn't that I had ever thought that I needed to either extend the

trip or I needed to modify the trip in any way because of my depression.

I'm the type of person who just takes things as they come.

And so when I took the trip, I didn't necessarily deal

with the depression head on.

It was more trying to resist my past coping mechanisms, posting

that to where it was like pretty vulnerable and basically saying

like, Hey, I'm struggling.

That was the tactic that, I tried to resist hiding my emotions and

trying to be like a stone cold person who can just handle things.

And so I didn't try too hard to exert myself to really like tackle

depression at that point in time.

I also wanted to see the world and, you know, still have as much fun as I could.

So it wasn't like, oh, I'm on a therapist call like every week during my trip, I

actually didn't have a therapist yet.

It was basically just like trying to do the best that I can to resist

all of my negative habits before.

Erin: Can I ask how long you were traveling for during this period?

Tammy: Yeah, it was five weeks.

Erin: Ooh.

Yeah.

So what'd you do when you got home?

Tammy: Well, I actually did not go home straight away.

I was still kind of traveling around the US domestically, um, because of like just

my schedule, like it was predetermined.

Um, so I actually didn't come home for another couple of

weeks after my Europe trip.

So it was still like always pushed on the back burner.

And then like, there was a continuation of my trauma and so it

was like, I'm getting retraumatized man, like PTSD in full swing.

And so I was like, What do I do now?

It's like, kind of just like figuring it out all over again.

And so when I got back home, it was like, my body was in survival mode the

whole time for basically a couple months.

So not a fun time in my life after I came back, um, it actually

got, my depression got way worse.

Because I was basically put back in the same situation that I was in.

So even though I was like pretty fucking depressed in Europe, it got

way worse in when I came back home.

But coming back home was like the right thing to do.

It gave me like a stability that I desperately needed because in

Europe I was all over the place.

Erin: Yeah.

Because from what I remember seeing on your TikTok, you had been traveling like

pretty extensively before you went on this Europe trip as well hadn't you?

I think like for a couple months you'd been traveling.

Tammy: So before that time, I like ran a whole analysis on my travels.

And for 2021, I was gone for 50% of the year, like exactly

183 days out of the year.

And so it was like nothing new for me to like, Travel for that long

or, you know, do things like that.

But yeah, I, I travel a lot for that year.

Erin: Okay, I'm really curious to talk a bit more about social media, because

I think like it's such an important factor in this discussion, especially

in terms of like how we portray travel.

But first, like before we talk about social media as a highlight

reel, I'm really curious about how people reacted to the TikTok.

You posted that first one and then subsequent ones, because I know you

grew like quite a community on TikTok.

Would you say you found support in that community that you have on TikTok now?

Tammy: Oh, most definitely.

You know, I think people can see like the genuine struggle and it

wasn't like, oh, I'm trying to, you know, gain attention or anything.

It, it seemed like a lot of people related to what I was posting and it

was just like me sharing my experience.

I wasn't trying to gain any followers from it or do anything with it.

It was my personal diary.

Depression is a widespread thing.

And so it naturally grew support because I think people who have been through

depression, they can have a lot of empathy for others who also see it.

And naturally, like people just want to help in a, any way that they can.

So I, I gained a lot of support and people who shared their stories with me as well.

And it was kind of just like, you know, we're all in this together.

Like there's no one in this world that is truly alone.

You may feel lonely.

Literally, there are millions of people who feel the exact

same way as you right now.

So it was, it was a really good feeling to gain from that.

And that's why I haven't stopped posting um, these vulnerable talks.

Even though I wouldn't consider myself depressed anymore, I just value so

much what the community has given me.

Erin: And you know what, I really feel that I see on TikTok more than

on Instagram, particularly in the travel community, less like curated

glimpses into people's experiences.

And I think that's why I just like it so much.

Um, because Instagram is just so curated, especially within the

travel community and on TikTok.

It's like a lot of people are just posting the good and the

bad in a really honest way.

And I don't know if other people have noticed this, but like,

that was definitely a big draw for me to, to TikTok in general.

Tammy: Yeah, definitely.

And that's, that's why I like, TikTok is my main platform.

I don't really post too much on Instagram.

I do.

I'm starting to more now, but there's a definite clear, uh, distinguish,

um, between those two platforms.

And that's what I appreciate so much about TikTok is people don't

care about those curated content.

Like I've actually noticed that people like it less and they find it less

relatable and people really seek out that, you know, just human experience.

So I really, I really love TikTok for that.

Erin: Yeah.

Like I said before, social media has long been a highlight reel and people

tend to glamorize their experiences because that's, I mean, honestly, like

that's what a lot of people want to see.

I think though that this can sometimes create a big disconnect between

people's expectations of travel and then their lived experience of it.

So, for example, I've talked on this show before about how I experienced an assault

while I was traveling through Marrakech.

And when I look back at my Instagram from that time, it's funny because you would

never know how distressed I was that week.

I was posting like everything was fantastic and fine.

And I was having the most incredible trip across Morocco.

So I'm curious, how were your expectations for travel shaped by

content that you saw online before you started traveling like extensively?

Tammy: I'd like to think that I wasn't as influenced, but I think

in reality, I probably have been.

Like, I'm in this really beautiful place that's all over Instagram and I

should be having the time of my life.

And you know, I'm living my best life.

I can't complain about anything.

And then once I go travel, I'm like, This is fun.

Is this fine?

And then you start to feel guilty about it.

You know, it's like, here's this crazy monument that literally people like

would die to travel and go see, but they're, you know, stuck in their

lives and they just can't do it.

And here I am, I'm so privileged to be here and I'm like, I don't

care so I think everyone is putting on a front on social media and

I think I've always realized it.

I don't think you can ever shake that feeling like it's been so

ingrained in society and it's been so ingrained into our minds because

I basically live on the internet.

You know, I try to be as conscious as I can to have my own experience because

the world is so vast and the world is meant to experience uniquely to you

because I think the world is a mirror.

Anything that is going on in your mind is, is what you're gonna see out in the world.

So if I'm in this like crazy country that millions of people love, and I'm

just not loving the experience, I'm like, okay, I've experienced it now.

And that's, that's how I'm going to take it.

So I think I tried to take off that pressure of like really

trying to live the best life and trying to do the most that you can.

Like sometimes I just really love walking out on the street with no plan and

just soaking up the energy around me.

And that's sometimes the best way to go experience travel is

to have no plan and go do it.

That's how I travel now.

And that's how I'd like to think that I traveled before.

But I think.

Subconsciously, it's still something in the back of your mind.

Erin: I really relate to that because like, I think I was very much the same.

I always think about when I went to Asia for, I think I was there

for nine months and I was traveling through Southeast Asia and then up to

Hong Kong, Japan, and then to India.

And at the beginning of the trip, I was very much about seeing like

everything on the list in every place.

and six weeks into the trip.

I was like, you know what?

The thing that makes me the most happy in being here is just wandering around

the streets and sitting in coffee shops and chatting with people and

watching people and just, just existing.

I think like sometimes with social media, you get this like grandiose feeling

that like, you need to see the specific sites, but really, like, you can find

a lot of joy just in being in a place and not really doing anything at all.

Tammy: I have almost the same experience as you.

I went through Southeast Asia as well, and I was there for a couple months and

at one point, I just hit like a wall.

I was like, I truly don't care to go out in the country right now.

And like live my best life because I am tired.

I like travel fatigue is a real thing.

Yeah.

And you know, it sounds so privileged, but it's like true.

You can't just soak up all that you can in life every single day.

Like sometimes you just wanna be a little couch potato.

Yeah.

And just in this country.

I like to compare it to, when you go to like a buffet, you know, you're paying a

one time fee and you're gonna eat as much food as you can, but sometimes you eat

so much food that you are uncomfortable and you actually hate the food.

And you're like, why did I just pay this much to be uncomfortable

and waste my day away?

Just like gouging myself with food.

And it's the same thing.

Like, yeah.

You're paying to go visit this country.

But if you're not experiencing it as best as you can, because you're

forcing yourself to go to all these things and you're not having that

much fun, like, what's the point?

Like just chill, you know.

Erin: Yeah.

I remember the day that my partner looked at me and he was like, "no more temples.

I can't do any more temples."

Because like, it was like every place we went, it was like,

okay, three temples to see.

And we were like, okay, we're only doing the really, really, really

special temples from this point forward.

Kattie: That literally just happened to Mark and I.

When we were in Portugal, after like three days of doing like two activities a day,

a Saturday came along, which seemed like the perfect day to do more activities.

And we both were like, "no, we're sleeping in today.

We're eating pastries and we have no plan.

We just need to like lay down for like 12 hours and just, you know".

And that was after four days.

I'm a very weak traveler.

Erin: I think all of us here have noticed this about TikTok, about

how it just feels more honest, but I do feel like I'm seeing a bit of

that spill over into Instagram now.

I think there is like a growing shift towards people showing

more of the reality of travel.

What do you think, like have you noticed a shift as well?

And do you think there's hope that in the future, the content we share hope

just be more vulnerable in general?

Tammy: I think there has always been a trend.

just like mental health awareness and being more open because like,

when I was growing up, I didn't really see too much about like mental

health awareness and stuff like that.

However, as I kind of got older through high school and then college, I did

notice that people are posting more about their journeys and stuff like that.

And I think it's just the way that society has progressed and the way that

we have de-stigmatized mental health.

And as much as we wanna say, there's still a stigma around it, I think

there always will be, but I think we have come so far, you know, miles

and miles from where we started.

So TikTok was kind of like the one that lead the way in social media.

And I think definitely like Instagram, it's just like the structure of it.

Also like Instagram we all know is trying to copy TikTok and trying to

stay in the game and stuff like that.

So if they wanna stay in the game, they're gonna have to create a platform that

is less conducive to filtering so much.

Where it was, you know, always picture perfect before.

Um, now with like the introduction of reels and stuff like that, I can see

a shift of just more genuine content.

We're leaning towards video format now in terms of consumption.

And I think it's easier to convey a lot of emotion and convey a lot of behind the

scenes aspects in videos versus pictures, where Instagram was only a photo platform.

And it was only one at the time, but now it's become kind of like a TikTok copycat.

But eventually it's just going to be this thing where we can't deny anymore.

Like, we just don't want to see any of this disingenuine content

because no one can relate to it.

Erin: Just the medium of video, you can express a lot more with it.

Cuz when I think back to like 10 years ago on Instagram, what can

you really say with one photo?

I mean, some people would argue, you can say a lot, but you're, you're

selecting one moment out of an entire day or an entire trip to share, but

with video it's much more possible to show like the layers of an experience.

So I do think the introduction of video is probably contributing a lot towards that.

Kattie: I don't know if Instagram will ever truly be able to become

TikTok because it is owned by Facebook and it has to still display all the

weird, creepy Facebook versions of reels that are just like, I don't

know how else to describe them.

So I don't think Instagram's really coming in for the true

competition against TikTok.

Every time I click on one of those reels on Facebook by accident,

I'm so deeply ashamed of myself.

Tammy: I don't understand like, how viral it gets.

Like, I think I know what videos you're talking about

is one of those really cringy.

They're really weird.

Like very clearly staged and like, yes.

Oh, God is so bad watching them, but they have the weird food one.

I don't understand it either, but.

Erin: Listen, the audience on Facebook is a little different.

Tammy: Yes, yes.

Yes.

. Erin: Kattie my first question is why are you on Facebook?

Kattie: that's a great question.

It's a great question.

I don't have an answer for you other than like Facebook's groups to network on??

I'm so ashamed of myself.

Tammy: Where else are you gonna get the wedding notifications and

the pregnancy baby announcements?

Erin: I just wanted to talk a little bit about what people can do to address

depression, if they're experiencing it or think that they might be experiencing it.

Obviously, if we could diagnose travel as a treatment plan for

everyone who is experiencing depression, that would be amazing.

But of course it's not realistic, a little too expensive.

But given this, what are your tips for anyone who is struggling

at home or while they're abroad?

Maybe like what steps helped you the most?

And if you know of any others that are helpful to know about as well.

Tammy: You know, they say the first step is always the hardest step and

it's just being real with yourself.

And it's easier said than done because sometimes, you know, if you've never

experienced depression before you might not know exactly how it feels, or it

might not be like as apparent or clear to you and not everyone's gonna have like

a very clear determination like I did.

So checking in with yourself and being as brutally honest as you can and meeting

yourself where you are, because if you're in a state of delusion or in a state of

denial where you think you can handle it, but you kind of have this like feeling

in the back of your mind where it's like, I don't really know if I can handle it.

The first step of being like, yeah, I probably can't handle it.

This is the biggest step that you can ever take because you're finally allowing

yourself to be open to all these options and all of these, not necessarily

treatment plans, but just help.

Because if you're closed off to it, then you're, you're kind of fucked.

Like there's, there's no other way to say it.

If you are not admitting to yourself that you are depressed or the fact

that you need help, or the fact that you need to change something,

you're never going to progress and you are only going to get worse.

And I've seen people who have done that and you know, they're

stuck in depression for even years and they don't even realize it.

So being very vigilant with yourself and being hard with yourself.

as much as people wanna be like, oh, you know, self care and self love.

You gotta, you gotta treat yourself with kindness.

While that's true, you also have to be very fucking hard with yourself and admit

the stuff that you don't want to admit.

And that's the hardest thing ever.

For me, it was like, I am not going to hide the fact that

I'm depressed with the world.

Like, I don't care if it makes people uncomfortable.

I don't care if it makes me uncomfortable, this is what I need to do.

And I'm gonna do it because if I don't, I'm probably not

going to make it through this.

So it started with little steps.

It doesn't have to be like, oh, go find a therapist cuz we all

know how freaking hard that is.

Um, you know, it starts, maybe journaling, maybe looking up,

literally Googling, "am I depressed?"

Or, you know, reading up about it or reading a book or

maybe it's watching videos.

It's little tiny steps, but never giving up on yourself.

Because, I mean, I know that's such a hard thing to say because when you're

depressed, it's like, who gives a shit?

Right.

Just having like a, like a very ignited feeling towards your depression.

And then going and doing something about it.

Uh, what truly got me out of my depression was like just having

goals and showing up for myself.

And that came in the form of exercise.

And I think the power of habits is so strong because it's not necessarily

the goals that get you there.

It's like those tiny little.

Things that you do every single day, even no matter how hard it is and doing

things for yourself when it's hard is the most important time to do it.

And I think that's what I have always known in the back of my head,

which is why I posted those videos.

Cuz I knew it was a very uncomfortable, hard thing for me

to do, which made me realize I have to do it because now it's hard.

And so whenever you know, you're trying to get out of depression, lean into

that uncomfortable feeling and lean into when you're telling yourself no.

And you're telling yourself, like, I don't really wanna do this because it's hard

because it's uncomfortable or because you don't even see the value in it.

I promise there is a lot of value in it, even if it's just like going to the gym.

If you can't go to the gym, put on your shoes, that's

showing up for yourself still.

You don't have to actually go to the gym.

I've done that many times.

And eventually, like I went from spending quite literally 10 minutes in the gym.

Whenever I didn't feel like working out, I would walk on the treadmill,

like at a 2.5 speed for 10 minutes and that I would be content with that.

And now I'm running like 16 mile runs, training for a

marathon and I freaking love it.

And it makes me so happy in life because just seeing the

progress of where I started.

And this did not come out of nowhere.

I literally remember just like calling with my friends.

I was finally open up and telling them like, fuck I hate today.

But you know, I still went to the gym for 10 minutes and then I

would, that would be like my one, uh, I guess like reward of the day.

Like, it felt good to tell them that I, even though I

didn't want to go, I showed up.

And now whenever I call my friends, I'm like, I just fricking ran 16

miles and like, they're so numb to it.

I've been doing this every single day.

It's not the end goal.

Like obviously, yes, I want to run a marathon, but I've already fulfilled

what I needed to fulfill because I am driven again and I am passionate again

and it makes me happy and it brings me a lot of peace and that's the end goal.

But for me, it started with putting on my freaking shoes and then doing it

again the next day and the next day.

And not to be on like my soapbox with like inspiration and motivation.

Like, motivation's not gonna get you fucking anywhere.

Determination and rewiring your brain to love suffering, like

you're already suffering, you know?

So why not suffer physically with the chance of your mental health

getting better with less suffering?

Choose your own suffering is basically what I wanna say.

Erin: What a motto.

I think it's so important to like acknowledge accessibility,

like for mental health support.

I know in Canada it's like exorbitantly expensive and it's often not covered.

And so a lot of people are left without that option.

And also I think just like everyone's treatment plan, quote

unquote is gonna be different.

Like it's very individual.

So I guess like a lot of the work is just figuring out what works for you.

Tammy: Yeah.

And it takes a ton of patience.

Like more patience than you're ever gonna have to endure in your life.

Cuz this is probably the hardest and longest thing that you'll ever deal with.

It certainly was for me.

Erin: Are you enjoying skydiving again?

Are we back at that place?

Tammy: I do.

I very much enjoy my life now.

And honestly I am happier than I was pre-depression.

So, I am very thankful for my depression because it taught me so much and it was,

it was a bitch of a lesson, but , it was a lesson that I needed to learn.

Erin: Thanks for listening to the show.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to share it with a fellow traveler.

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And if you're feeling extra generous, you can leave us a five star

review or support us on Patreon.

Alpaca My Bags is written and hosted by me, Erin Hynes, and

it's produced and edited by Kattie Laur in Canada's Toronto area.

If you wanna reach out to us, check the show notes for all the info you need.

I'll see you in two weeks, but in the meantime, I hope you get

Alpaca your bags safely and soon.