Jeremy Pang: We're in the basement. Depends how honest you

want me to be really, but that used to be called The Rat

cupboard. And the reason for that is because when we first

came in, there was a family of rats who lived in this, what

used to be an old accountants office.

Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove. Learning to

cook is such an interesting thing. To me. This is often

something I think about when I'm on TikTok, as countless cooking

videos pop up on my FYP because never before in history have we

had such frictionless access to videos of people cooking things.

And it seems really logical to learn how to cook this way

because cooking is such a physical activity. But when you

consider cooking schools, which again, makes sense to learn this

way, because it's such a physical thing...cooking schools

tend to be quite serious and formal. In my mind, I always

have a picture of stainless steel surfaces and industrial

appliances. But what about a different kind of cooking

school? One intended to try and meet people where they are in

terms of their skills, their knowledge, and their kitchens.

This is Jeremy Pang, who founded the School of Wok

Jeremy Pang: In the first week of us opening the f...one of the

first ever customers we had was our landlords. And it was in

their class that we saw a lovely friendly creature sort of run

past the surveyor... and I didn't tell her because

obviously our customers... so we distracted her with the

beautiful food and then they had a lovely time and then the day

after I sent her an email I said can you please sort this out,

we've got a problem. So it's now not the rat cupboard. Anyway!

Lucy Dearlove: I love that that's what you started with

Jeremy Pang: This is...Adrienne's going

like...what the. Right. Anyway, let's get over the rat story.

Welcome to School of Wok.

Lucy Dearlove: On this episode, I'm handing over the hosting to

my friend and collaborator, the food writer, Adrienne Katz

Kennedy. Adrienne and I headed down to the school of work

together, so she could interview Jez, an old friend of hers.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: I met Jez about 12 years ago or so. I was

managing a cookery school in Marylebone. And he and his

business partner walked in looking for some place to hire

to do some cookery classes.

Lucy Dearlove: Right. And then he poached you.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: And then he poached me. It's great.

Jeremy Pang: The concept at the beginning was very much...I can

teach you, anyone in three hours, you can pick three

dishes, any food that you've ever eaten in a Chinese

restaurant, I'll teach you how to cook, which was quite a big

concept. Because I mean, I couldn't cook any, like every

single dish that every single Chinese restaurant in the UK has

ever offered. I didn't know...

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: That's asking a lot from you!

Jeremy Pang: Yeah, and people did! Most people will not you

know, they'd ask for like, an egg fried rice, and sweet and

sour pork and, and maybe a crispy chili beef or something

like that. But and to be fair, I've never even cooked a crispy

chili beef in my life before opening School of Wok. But I

knew, like because of my upbringing, my dad and my, my

dad was definitely more of the wok sort of like sort of Chef

and he at home. And, you know, I learned a lot from him growing

up. Not that he taught me, he just just showed me...he was

just like, watch son, watch. And you'll learn. Very quickly after

opening in 2009 and teaching sort of friends of friends. I

think it took about six months for most of my customers...55%

of the customers after six months are coming from Google

searching for Chinese cooking lessons. In London.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: There was quite a thirst for home cooking

at that time thought, with recession and kind of moving

away from restaurant entertaining and to home

entertaining.

Jeremy Pang: It was, it was

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: Sounds like it was serendipitous.

Jeremy Pang: I think you're right. I think the recession

helped me start this business, which is a weird thing to think

about. You know, I was like 25...what do I do? I'd lost my

job on the day of my dad's burial and then came back home

to a recession...couldn't find a job in corporate again. I was in

marketing and PR, marketing mainly. You know, my my wife

basically said to me, Well, why don't you teach cooking and I

that's how it started. And then now like looking, what, 13 years

back? I think the concept of School Of Wok hasn't changed

that much. But what we did when we stepped foot in here was we

got rid of the 'we'll teach you anything, it's your choice'. It

was more like no, we have to build menus into each one of the

classes. Because otherwise it was just not manageable. If

everyone wants to learn something completely different

in the same class, it's just not manageable at all. At that time,

it was mainly Chinese still. But what we did was we split them at

the very beginning, because we'd been to lots of Western cooking

classes. We split them like they did. And that was like knife

skills or wok skills or you know, but very quickly, we

realized that didn't work for us that actually, we had to teach

every class like you were cooking a normal meal at home.

Like you wouldn't ever just focus at home on your knife

skills, especially with Asian cooking you're like No, every,

every class needs knife skills. Yeah, that's important, you

know? So the first half an hour, every class now - and the format

changed at that point in the first year I'd say - every half

an hour of every class was... here, this is how you use a

cleaver. Yeah, these are the reasons why a cleaver's so much

more versatile in in many ways to a 20 centimetre chef's knife.

Yeah. And then you move on to like, you're like your

preparation is done. Let's make some lovely dumplings or

whatever. And you get that sort of nice therapeutic feeling of

like making something. It's like an immediate reward when you've

made something you've never made before. And it looks beautiful

in front of you. Yeah. And then you go into wok cooking and you

get your adrenaline rush. Yeah. So over time, it changed to

like, more like cuisine based. And we started to introduce more

like Southeast Asian cuisines, you know, and things like that.

And now we teach Chinese...alll Southeast Asian cuisines,

Korean, Japanese, but it's taken us best part of 10 years to be

able to introduce what I would say the UK mass audience would

deem as newer cuisines here. And even then, most people, like,

don't really know, like the...anything out of outside of

a handful of most popular dishes from those places. Yeah, what

we're teaching is like, not necessarily like how to cook one

dish, like dish by dish of course, we do that in the

classes. What we're teaching is more like, why I think Asian

families, most Asian families I know, food is what brings us

together, so and so it's like a cultural, like, a really

positive cultural experience without being too focused on

being Asian. Does that make sense? Yeah, I think that was

important to me, because I mean, I was brought up at the best of

both worlds. So but the best part of the Asian culture that I

was brought up in was definitely the food and feasts that we had

as a family. So to bring that to the world in a different way

that that...I think that's why we've we've stayed here, other

than the name being super cool. We've stayed there because we've

got quite a unique way of delivering that.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: The rat cupboard is now completely

sealed up, totally safe and is in fact used as a cloakroom.

School of Wok is close to the heart of Covent Garden, near

Chinatown, on a quiet little alleyway that you wouldn't know

existed if you weren't going there for a particular purpose.

Jeremy Pang: It's just behind Coutts bank is almost like a

lost, lost Street and no one really knows it. It's here. And

it's never really changed that way. But there are some nice

like you know, the Harp, the pub down the road has been here for

God knows how long. It was when we first started owned by a

lovely old Irish lady who owned it for many, many years. And

it's a little sort of community almost, yeah.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: When Jez and his business partner Nev

first went to view the school it was an accountants office. And

the first room you walked into was just set up into little

cubbies. So now it's the shopfront...you walk in, it's

where classes will do their preparations, all of their knife

skills. And then at the end, the tables are flipped around. So

it's where everyone can enjoy their meal together at the end

of the class. So at the back of the space, you have the kitchen,

where the class will go into towards the end of the three

hour period to watch the demonstration and then do all of

the wok cooking

Jeremy Pang: When we got through to this back kitchen...this is

when both Nev and I, my business partner and I were quite

excited, I would say because this space was - in terms of an

empty shell - how it currently feels. And so we came in here

and they actually already had the skylights, I think...there's

a lot of light that comes in here. Even though we're in

central London, and we're surrounded by buildings. We get

this sort of flood of light in here natural light and When we

came in here we thought Oh yeah, we can definitely build a

kitchen into here. And that's when we started thinking okay,

this is more real than not. The basement downstairs was hard to

figure out. But we sort of worked the design of school of

wok backwards from this back kitchen. It's a weird shape, but

it does, it does work and now, this is where we do a lot of

filming for the school of wok YouTube channel. Of course, we

need the space for a lot of pots and pans. And, yeah, you know,

all the woks are under and like in the cupboards, you know, like

but you can see woks dotted around everywhere and, you know,

steam baskets, like all over the place.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: The School of Wok is quite different

than a lot of other professional or even recreational cookery

schools in that it doesn't feel overwhelming. There's no big

shiny appliances. For the most part, it's not a professional

kitchen, it feels a lot more like a domestic space. The whole

school of wok approach and Jez's approach is to make it relaxed,

to make cooking fun, rather than task oriented. So I think the

reason for the school being set up the way it is, is to make

customers feel comfortable. So they're less intimidated by the

skills that they're going to learn.

Jeremy Pang: What we wanted was an open space where every pod or

kitchen pod felt like a, like a flat kitchen, like you don't

require huge amounts of space to be able to cook beautifully,

like good home food, home cooked food here. I mean, all the way

round there's sort of single, or what we call like domino hubs,

or induction hubs, because they literally are like a domino

piece dotted around the outside of the kitchen. In the middle of

the kitchen, there's an island with a...one...the only gas hub

in school of wok. And then two domino induction hubs either

side, I've got one gas wok hob in there, that's mainly for use

on the YouTube channel. So that I've got a bit of versatility,

but the whole concept with school of wok was I started

teaching people in their own homes, how to cook Chinese food,

when you teach in people's homes, you don't have a choice

of what hob you have, so... and so it was either. I mean, I

remember, Hannah, who's one of our staff has been a longtime

her dad was one of my first ever customers. And they had in their

old kitchen a ceramic hob, you know, old school 1970s style

ceramic hob, you know, we cooked...like, all the stuff

that we teach here today, we were cooking on that hob. And we

worked out how, yeah. I am not a believer of like, you know, the

traditional is always best, I think, I think it's a case of

like, well, no, you use what you got. And you work it out from

there. And first, when we put induction hobs into here, a lot

of people don't how can you ever walk school without gas, a gas

feed, we actually kept off the gasoline, we don't have a gas

feed today, we just have a butane gas cylinder under this

hob for that because because we capped off the gas feed quite

confidently, yeah. For various reasons...commercially. We were

at that point, we made a link with one of our sponsors who

were really like it's sort of at the forefront of induction

technology. And they said, Can you cook this stuff on induction

and I said, Give me heat any type of heat and you can cook

it. But also we thought actually no, it's a nice thing because

it's modern, it's easy to clean down. But it's also we felt that

most like modern like flats these days built with either

electric or induction hubs. And so if we couldn't teach people

how to use their own equipment, then we wouldn't succeed. Like

there was a lot of cookery schools we used to dot around

all of them before we opened here that had quite commercial

industrial kitchens spaces that they were doing cooking classes

in. Actually, we knew that customers going to those cook

schools were quite daunted by standing it just even standing

in an industrial kitchen environment and so we wanted

this space to be as close to home as possible. And that has

worked and that has never changed like we've always had

that feeling of of whatever restrictions whether you feel

may be at home you still have here but we're showing you that

they're not really restrictions you can cook what you want as

long as you've got a bit of heat here because once you can

control heat and know how to control heat. You can you can

cook on anything, yeah.

The school of wok way for Pretty much like hands on cooking. So

as much as possible, we explain little things here or there, or

we give people like tips and tricks and how to be more

confident on the walk, or how to get the best out cooking their

Thai curries or whatever it might be. But like where

possible, we'll, we'll take a guinea pig to demonstrate stuff

from the group of customers, because that I believe, makes

the whole group then much more confident that they can do

themselves. When customers first walk in most of the time, most

of the time, they don't know each other, in the first 10, 15

minutes, they can be quite quiet, and not really sort of

get on like, you know, they're just a bit sort of scared of

talking to each other. But but then the chef gets them

involved, they start chopping they're really concentrating on

not chopping their fingers off, you know, and then once they've

gotten past the garlic, ginger and spring onion, then they're

usually pretty comfortable and they start chatting to each

other. You know, and then by that point out there when the

prep preparing, it's actually quite, it's almost quite Zen in

this in the sense it's quite, especially the public classes

very relaxed, and but also everyone's really eager to

learn, I'd say then it takes about, what, 45 minutes an hour

or so at least before they might have to come in here and cook a

curry or get a curry started. When they come in here they're

like oh yeah, let's let's get cooking something, they've got

that feeling. And then their chef, usually because of our

style of cooking, like Asian cooking, there's a lot of it can

be quite theatrical, in many senses. So and so they enjoy

that, you know, the wok demonstrations, or even like

intricacies of like how to get the best flavour out of a curry

paste, you know, by sort of slowly frying it off. And, you

know, all that sort of stuff is interesting, isn't it?

Interesting, yeah. And that's part of the love of food, enjoy

it, like, you know, some things are really quick, some things is

much slower. And the slower things, you know, you enjoy

that, you know, you give it that love and the quicker things you

get that adrenaline rush,

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: As Jez was talking about the

physicality and the joy you get from cooking in person, I was

wondering how he helped to translate that to the cookbooks

he writes.

Jeremy Pang: Cooking is extremely, like physical,

everything is done by like hand eye coordination. And you know,

muscle memory, the best place to do it is actually come in and

take a class like, but even even watching a Cooking, cooking

demonstration. Like is, is perhaps you're taking more in

that 20 minutes than you might take in from reading the whole

introduction to my book, you know, yeah, but but the what the

books do is is they sort of they're sort of more prolonged

effect of learning, you can go back to it. You can go into like

pages that you've missed, or you might not remember everything

that we've taught you in the class. That's why we think...we

have things like the wok clock, because whether it's illustrated

in a book or is stand- is sitting right in front of you on

a table. It's very, like it's visually appealing. Like you see

it and you go, Oh, that's so useful!

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: Do you want to explain what a wok clock

is?

Jeremy Pang: Yes, yeah, so. So a wok clock I think I guess I've

become a bit famous for, or school of wok has...it's like

our way of explaining mise en place, but it's, you know, a

round plate, you've got a round, everyone's got round plates at

home. So that's your wok clock. And you start at 12 o'clock with

your first ingredient. And then you go all the way round. So by

the time you've done your 90% of your preparation, all your

chopping and getting your sauces together, anything that you need

to like soak, or cook, pre cook, you know, you've done all of

that, then your recipes right there in front of you. And you

know exactly what needs to go first, second, third, fourth,

fifth. Yeah, that's what a wok clock is and it works a treat,

not just with what cooking but any type of cooking and most

people, most friends I know who who, like you know, read my

recipes or books or whatever, that that's the thing that they

take away is that is the wok clock and they're there...it

just betters their cooking in general.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: In Jeremy's other cookbooks, while

the wok clock has been included, in his new book, Jeremy Pang's

School of Wok, this is the first time where there is a visual

illustration. It's done by Freya at the Brand New studio, who's

worked with Jeremy on all of his books.

Jeremy Pang: I'll say the title of the dish and then explain the

word clock. Yeah, fine. All right. So we've got a ginger and

spring onion chicken from the School of Wok cookbook...really

starts and finishes with the word clock so you do your

preparation, you know any chopping and things like that in

the first segment at 12 o'clock with spring onion, finely sliced

spring onion, and then moving on for that, next to the spring

onion. We've got some Ginger and Garlic, because I want my spring

onion to go in first before my ginger and garlic to get nicely

seared, get that flavour essence of the spring onion, ginger and

garlic goes in. And then after that on the wok clock you've got

your red onion so your harder vegetables, green peppers,

whatever veggies you want really following on. And then you've

got your chicken, which has been marinated, and that's in the

recipe. So it's like pre marinated meat. After your

harder vegetables, once your chicken's seared, then you've

got the sauce because I always say that your sauce goes last in

a stir fry you have sauce in two places, one in the marinade. And

secondly, in for your actual stir fry sauce. And that sauce

is made up in a little bowl or ramekin last on your wok clock

with some chicken stock, oyster sauce, dark soy shall sing rice

wine, and a bit of sesame oil. And so that can then all get

poured into your stir fry right at the right time. And you don't

hopefully have to go back to the recipe book and make this

beautiful recipe book too messy.

I always say that my job is simplify explanations of

techniques, but not to simplify techniques.

That makes sense!

So if you find something like the wok clock it which for us is

like gold dust because it's it's perfect for that because once

you get used to creating your wok clocks, say you're cooking

four or five completely different dishes in one night,

for a little dinner party. Really, that gets broken down

into four or five plates that you need to wash up at the end.

As opposed to the whole kitchen being an absolute mess. Anyone

who who's like really like uses our sort of teaching takes that

on board like because it's so much easier. It's so much more

pleasurable here, it's there to like visually have visual impact

to go. Okay, now I've cooked two or three recipes from the book,

perhaps I don't even need to read the method, I can just go

straight to the ingredients list. And the wok clock. You

know, know how to cook it. Yeah. Cooking in person is always

better because it's more fun for sure. Yeah. And cooking should

be fun. You know, or it can be a cooking it should be emotional,

isn't it, you know, should you can cook when you're angry. It's

a good time to cook you definitely get a cleaver out not

for the wrong reasons. But like get a cleaver and a chopping

board out and get some ginger and smash it because, like you

that is like therapy there right there in front of you with it

with a bit of ginger. You know, and well at the other day. And I

wasn't last week I wasn't angry. But I was I had a had a

stressful week. But my best friend came over from Miami. And

like on Friday afternoon, I just set aside four hours just to

cook whatever I wanted without a camera. Like without even any

thought or need to take a photo of this beautiful food I was

cooking. And I just put my headphones on put some music on

and I just cooked like I cooked a banquet for like three of us.

I said what do you want to eat and he said Chinese food of

course. And I was like, Okay, fine. I'll cook it but yeah, not

very often do I even cooked like lobster, like, you know, Ginger

and spring onion lobster at home. But I haven't seen him for

five years so and it's enjoyable.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: Though Jeremy is a chef, he's not a

chef in the restaurant sense. He's a teacher. So he's in a

really unique position for a few different reasons.

From working with you for so long. I felt like at the

beginning there was a much smaller box that you were or the

school was being shoved into, that it was, you were

representing Chinese cookery as a whole or Chinese people as a

whole rather than Jeremy Pang and the School of Wok and all of

the people who have come through the doors and their version of

what Yes, this could be this cuisine has been for them their

influences that kind of thing.

Jeremy Pang: No, you are right. In that sense. I definitely was

shoehorned into my, my background and my my place of

origin, I guess. But

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: Which is here.

Jeremy Pang: But...yeah! you know, I was born in the UK. I

was probably for the first 10 years of my life much more

British than I was Chinese or seen to be, deemed to be. I only

really started learning about Asian cuisine in Singapore when

I lived in Singapore when I was 10 years old. I didn't like food

at all for the first 10 years of my life. You know, because I

just wanted to play, I found eating a chore, you know, and I

didn't actually really see myself as being that Chinese.

But over, like the last couple of decades, like, you change as

you go forwards and you learn a lot more about your, your place

of origin or your culture or whatever, but actually, even

now, like my, my main thing is that I know how to cook good

food, like, you know, this is it, I know how to teach it. So

why does it matter where it comes from? It's just more about

how tasty it is. You know, I know like the podcast Lecker, is

like, It means tasty doesn't it

Jeremy Pang: Sehr lecker. And my German friend who lived with me

Lucy Dearlove: It does, yeah.

and at university, you know, he used to teach me all these

little things, little phrases, you know, so every, you know,

every time I have a cuppa...eine Tasse heissen Tee, sehr

lecker...a very tasty cup of tea, you know, but he's, I think

that you go through phases in life. And you and when you come

back to it, at the very beginning, I don't have any

gripe about people trying to sort of stereotype me, I just

know that that happens. And no matter whether...what culture

you come from, there's always going to be people who do that,

whether on purpose or by accident, and that's okay. Like,

I'm kind of okay with that. I know that most people won't

necessarily agree with that. A lot of people don't agree with

that. But I'm okay with it. Because I was brought up with,

in two cultures. And I, most of my friends are from all over the

world. Yeah. Where I, perhaps have seen my profile change, or

is actually I've taken control of that and gone, Okay, let me,

let me put myself where I want to be. And that, although it...

I've had moments of, like quite stressful moments, like trying

to work out what I should be doing, or what society thinks I

should be doing, I always come back to then taking control of

it, and not caring what society thinks. And just doing what I

feel is best. And that is like being myself, being kind and

generous to others. And my way of doing it is sharing my talent

with other people and showing them how they can do it for

themselves. Yeah. And I think that's certainly gotten me in my

media world to a much better place. I'm accepted in the

industry and respected in the industry for working hard and

honing in my skill in communication.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: How do you think your customers...what

do you think the demands for authenticity are?

Jeremy Pang: Yeah it's a funny word authenticity isn't it.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: Yes. Has it changed?

Jeremy Pang: Errr. No. Ahh...the demand from mass, like market

customers, which definitely...it like, from the general public,

for any type of product or service is nothing to do with

authenticity in my mind. If you're, if you're teaching, like

if you want to educate people in anything, you got to look at

what people like. And they like, people like, especially when it

comes to food, people like comfort food, things that make

them feel comfort, nostalgia, for themselves, not for for

someone else that they don't know from another country or

country or culture. You know, so... authenticity to me is like

what's authentic to that person that's coming to learn about

Chinese food is what is what they've eaten from the Chinese

culture, or from a Chinese takeaway, or restaurant, or

perhaps a Chinese friend that there's cooked for them when

they were younger?

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: How do you manage that, because that's

the same level of ...sounds, I might be wrong, but that's the

same level of expectation is pick three dishes that you've

ever eaten before and I'll teach you how to cook them in that,

like, having to cater somebody's experience that you may or may

not really be aware of...

Jeremy Pang: Yes and no, because after three years even before

opening the doors here in central London, and doing that

service 80% of the time, people will pick the same dishes. You

know, because in the UK and not just UK, any country there are

only certain establishments that like you can go in, like they

could go and get this food when they were growing up. And so

they eat whatever was like available from those types of

establishments, egg fried rice, sweet and sour pork, crispy

chili beef, prawn toast, spring rolls, possibly like a sweet

corn soup. Really like what I would deem is - other than

Maybe a fried rice and sweet sour pork, which we would eat in

a Chinese family at home - quite far away from a classic like

real Cantonese meal, home meal. But Cantonese people, like

Chinese people like myself, even though I was born here, we don't

go to Chinese takeaways to eat dinner. We might own them, but

we won't go to them. But even then, as kids, we also loved

those things, we loved prawn toast we loved, you know, we

loved sweet, proper, sweet and sweet and sour. And, you know,

my, my mum and dad would scoff at us wanting to order it at a

restaurant, but that's what we were wanting to eat.

Adrienne Katz Kennedy: It's interesting that you still have

to play to what people know, you can't I mean, you...part of what

you do is try to teach and kind of celebrate this openness

around Chinese cuisine around Asian cuisines and how to make

it accessible in domestic spaces with whatever you have. But then

having to play to what people know, rather than what your

family might eat at home.

Jeremy Pang: Yeah, right. But it's education, isn't it? You

know, like, my, my oldest is first year at school, you know,

he doesn't walk into school and suddenly start learning algebra,

like, you know, like, that's a, like, you walk into school and

you don't actually, they don't actually have maths lessons they

have...they play games, to learn about maths. Like, if if you

don't do that, in in an any other educational sort of

environment and make it fun, then people won't want to learn,

right? So you got to you got to...in my mind, no matter who

you are. If you want to be able to do like, like teach people

something, or show someone something they don't know. They

need to be super comfortable about you doing that for them.

If it means that cooking 1000 egg fried rices... I mean, I

joke that I've been flown all over the country to teach

someone how to cook an egg fried rice, like and like flown all

over the world. In fact, I remember...this is funny. Like

Nev my business partner, myself and Shannon one of our ex

managers. We were flown over to Singapore, for a festival for

wellness, a health and wellbeing festival about four or five

years ago to teach Singaporeans how to make dim sum. I mean,

like we are, I was the only Chinese person there. First and

foremost, Nev my business partners. Like I joke that he's

this, you know, this sort of chef from, from like, the West

Country of UK, who's only ever taught even how to eat dimsum

from me 10 years ago, by but we have a skill set. And that is we

make people feel really comfortable and relaxed and want

to learn and actually most people in Asia, like in

Singapore, even Hong Kong, where dim sum is like the place to be.

Do not know even like, like the first like sort of step on how

to make a dumpling pastry. Right so that I mean, that's funny. I

mean, I've I've flown over to Hong Kong just for one day just

to teach an audience of like 1500 people how to make a fried

rice or healthy fried rice. Because in Hong Kong people

don't cook. Because they can get that fried rice for a couple of

quid down the road. Why would they make it themselves? Yeah,

it's it's an interesting concept. But but the point I'm

getting at is like it's if and I'm getting closer and closer to

being able to like, talk to huge audiences now. But it hasn't

changed, like my way of talking to big audience or a small

audience never changed, like and that is how do I make everyone

in that audience feel comfortable and have a bit of

fun. And that works it works.

Lucy Dearlove: This episode of Lecker was hosted by Adrienne

Katz Kennedy and produced by me Lucy Dearlove. You can read

Adrienne's writing and find out more about her on her website

Adriennekatzkennedy.com And you can find out more about Jeremy

Pang at Jeremy pang.co.uk and his new book Jeremy Pang's

School of Wok is out now, wok clock illustrations and all.

This month's Patreon exclusive episode is a conversation

between myself and Adrienne about the making of this

episode, which was something new for both of us. It was a really

interesting process for me for various reasons. And you can

listen to us talk about that by becoming a patron of Lecker for

three pounds a month. That's at patreon.com/leckerpodcast.

Lecker is entirely listener funded and patron subscriptions

allow me to cover running costs like transcription and music

library fees, but also hopefully do more collaboration like this

in the future where I can pay co hosts and contributors fairly,

which is really important to me. So if you've enjoyed hearing

from Adrienne on this episode, then please do consider

subscribing if you can afford to. Other ways you can support

Lecker: rate and review on Apple podcasts or Spotify. Buy things

from the Lecker Big Cartel site, I'll link that in the show

description and just tell your friends. Music is by Blue Dot

Sessions. Thanks to Ben McDonald, who did a fantastic

illustration of Jeremy for this episode as he does for many of

the Lecker episodes. You can see that on the LeckerInstagram and

Twitter @leckerpodcast. And I know I've been away for a while

but I've got loads more episodes to come over the next few weeks.

some really exciting things, subscribe if you haven't

already. And I'll be back in your feed very very soon.