SEAI 180 Degrees Season 4 Episode 6

The Changemaker - Dr. Lorna Gold

Jim Scheer 00:05

Hi, I'm Jim Scheer, host of 180 Degrees, a podcast brought to you by the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. In this series, I talked to Climate Leaders about how they first connected to the urgent need for climate action. We go back to their roots and talk about their journeys, discover what drives them, and what keeps them motivated. We also explore the essential ingredients required for leadership on climate action here in Ireland, and how we might impact internationally. Nothing short of a societal movement is now needed to ensure a livable planet for our children and future generations.

My guest today, Dr. Lorna Gould is well known for her passion for climate justice and sustainable development. Originally from Scotland, Lorna moved to Ireland in 2002, and took up a role with Trócaire. During her time in Trócaire she worked primarily in areas of applied research interest, including international cooperation, Sustainable Development Goals, climate justice and just transition. She is currently vice chair of the board of the global Catholic climate movement, the movement set up to implement Pope Francis's teachings on the environment globally. Lorna is also author of Climate Generation: Awakening to Our Children's Future, which describes her own personal story of waking up to the ecological emergency as a mother, academic and activist. We talk about faith based approaches to dealing with the climate crisis, and the huge potential to act faster when we act with a sense of compassion and togetherness. Dr. Lorna Gold, thank you so much for joining us on The SEAI podcast.

Dr. Lorna Gold 01:30

Great to be here, Jim.

Jim Scheer 01:33

As we've done with other guests, I'd like to start by bringing you back in time a little bit and asking if you remember a moment, when you first became interested in environmental issues?

Dr. Lorna Gold 01:41

I do actually and you have to take me way way back into when I was a child and I was at secondary school. And I remember I was always into geography, and I was doing a geography project about my local area. And I - in my local area, from where I live, you can see the Grangemouth oil refinery, or where I left when I was growing up, you could see the Grangemouth oil refinery, which produced processed all the North Sea oil in Scotland. And I remember looking at that and wondering about the implications of oil and gas and fossil fuels. And often at night, the glow from the flares would wake us up this orange glow in the sky. And when I did that project, I was age 12. So that's like taking you back a long time, I came across this theory called the greenhouse effect. And I still remember now doing that project and drawing the globe and drawing the greenhouse effect around it, and making the connection to fossil fuels and to my local area. And I remember even at that time, sure that well, they were talking about the early 2020s. At the time that this would actually the world would kind of wake up or we would see the impacts of climate change. And me thinking, God, I'll be an old woman then I don't need to worry about the 2020s. But at the same time, I think that is what really sparked my interest in climate change. And to be honest, I never looked back. That was me fascinated by this topic and about sustainable development energy, and wanted to work in that area.

Jim Scheer 03:28

When when I first met you was at a conference on climate action hosted by the Sisters of Mercy in Carrick on Shannon, and you presented and launched your book, The Climate Generation, can you tell us a bit about the about how you got to that point from from that young age of that young interest and what you were doing at that time and maybe a bit about the genesis of your book?

Dr. Lorna Gold 03:49

Yeah, I went from school to then I did a degree and PhD in geography. And all the way through my studies, the focus was really about there must be another way there must be another economic system that we can that’s more sustainable that can deliver better outcomes for people. For like for the environment. I studied at a university and but also got very involved in campaigning issues around around climate around social justice issues. And between one thing and another I ended up coming to Ireland in 2002. After completing my PhD to work for Trócaire. The reason I came to work for Trócaire was really because I was fascinated by the policy dimension of the question of climate change and sustainability, a and I knew that that faith organisations or development organisations in had a big role to play in helping to change, change policy, I spent then almost 20 years just before lockdown I moved on from Trócaire. But I absolutely loved the time working there. And it gave me such an insight into the policy dimensions and working to change the Irish government's policies working to influence international policy on climate change. But also the importance of really engaging the grassroots, like, you can't change the policies at a national or international level, unless you have a groundswell of opinion, or like people want it to change. So I mean, when you met me in a up in Carrick on Shannon, at that conference, I’d really come through this kind of 20 years working nearly 20 years working with Trócaire. But I wanted to also kind of bring more a personal dimension to this story of climate change. And I think becoming a parent really impacted me knowing the science, knowing the timelines that that around this subject, like Greta Thunburg says, like the world's on fire, like we are in an emergency situation when it comes to climate emissions. And yet feeling that this is not nobody sees it, even now, after COVID, I think we see it all around us. But there's still this kind of, I mean, academics call it cognitive dissonance, like a kind of this distance between what we know to be true and how we behave. So climate generation was the result. I think of me working through becoming a parent, reconciling myself with the kind of anxiety that that brings, and the hope that you have for your kids. And trying to turn that into a story that other parents could relate to. And I think that's what climate generation was all about is, is helping other parents to enter into this story in a hopeful way. Because whilst there's a lot of doom and gloom out there, and I think, as parents, we're almost bound to continue to have hope.

Jim Scheer 07:15

You've talked there about your science background, policy, also religion and faith and engaging people so on the religion and faith side has, has spirituality and religion, has that always been a strong theme in your life as well as that science background that you have?

Dr. Lorna Gold 07:31

I would say so. I mean, I grew up in a Catholic family, and my mom was always a very practical, she still is, but she, when we were growing up was not a kind of dogmatic, you could say, or kind of, Catholic, kind of imposing something on us. She, she very much taught us in, in our own way, I would say, and to live according to our values, and to believe in a loving presence to believing a loving God. And she always interestingly, now, because I would say I have a great, I'm a great admirer of Pope Francis and all the work he's done on the environment. When I was growing up, my mom always told us the story of St. Francis of Assisi. And it was one of the prayers that she used to, we used to say everyday going out to school. So I guess that was ingrained in me from a very young age that not in a kind of wear your faith on your sleeve kind of way but but this this kind of deep rooted belief in a loving presence and the need to, to engage with people on a deep level on a deep spiritual level in order to bring about change. And I think I've seen so much, especially now in the work I'm doing with with an organisation called Faith invest, which is working with faith to move their assets, move their financial and non financial assets to tackle the climate crisis, the faith, and faith communities are a massive, powerful force in the world for and can use that powerful force for good if they choose to do so. And it's a really interesting thing that we're doing with faith invest now, working across faiths, so that what you discover is that this belief in the need to care for the planet to Earth care, care for the planet, care for creation. It's not a Christian thing, or it's not only a Christian thing, it's something that extends across all religions. So if even if you just do the simple maths that faith communities people who adhere to a faith are 84% of the world's population, faith communities and faith organisations own or control around 16% of the land, the livable landmass and the planet. If you can't, then, for example, in the Catholic Church, the 200,000 parishes across the world, you start to kind of say in your head, if all of these groups have this profound belief in care for the earth, then surely, they are major stakeholders in, in what happens. And also you have to then say, well, they also must be a big part of the problem. If they're not living by those values. That's also an issue that needs to be addressed. So I think I think on two levels, I think there's a kind of personal spiritual level, which has always guided me. But also, I kind of look and see strategically, from a systems change point of view, we need to mobilise faith communities, and they are one of the groups that I think has been not quite ignored. But it's an interesting debate to have around. Why are the faiths absent from or largely absent from this discussion?

Jim Scheer 11:01

This interface between science and faith and, and science communication? So I met with John Sweeney, and we talked about getting the science across, and that's sometimes really rocking people to the core and you know, potentially, you know, causing anxiety, but also generating action and things like that. What do you see at the interface of science and faith and religion? And how those can come together? Or can they?

Dr. Lorna Gold 11:23

Yeah, it's a really interesting question. And I think that modernity, in general, is seeing these as kind of polar opposites. So the faith is seen as almost like you could say the fairy story is the thing that the consolation, that thing that kind of gives you a little bit of solace in a material world, and the science looks at the material world, and the kind of what we can know about that world, even developments in science in neuroscience, and all different branches of science have shown that these could be complementary areas of human experience. And I think the more you delve into the science, you uncover the sense of mystery, great scientists would recognize the mystery at the heart of many of the discoveries. And then at the same time, religion, I think, if it's a or I would say, more faith, if it's taken, let's say, not in a kind of fundamentalist way, but is also open to other ways of being and other ways of thinking, can offer a great sense of meaning, a great sense of motivation for people to, to actually a see that this world. And that it is worth saving. And it's worth engaging in. And I think, to me, those are complementary. And to me that the master of this really is Pope Francis, in terms of this thinking around the relationship. And in his letter that he wrote in 2015, which really kind of blew up in this whole area of faith and science Laudato si’ On Care For Our Common Home. He calls for a dialogue involving all different sides of human experience. And that's something really profound. I think, obviously, Popes generally pontificate, which is probably we would consider the opposite of calling for dialogue. But the whole of the mission of Pope Francis has been to kind of break open this whole area of dialogue.

Jim Scheer 13:37

Yeah. God and with your work with faith invest. You've actually recently met Pope Francis and in terms of being in conversation you were in a room with him and and some others recently, could you tell us about that experience and, and what the conversation is about what's the latest latest on that conversation?

Dr. Lorna Gold 13:57

Yeah, I mean, I've been really privileged over the past few years to work quite closely with Pope Francis and some of the team at the Vatican, as well as working in Faith Invest. I’m the chair of the board of a Laudato si’ movement which specifically is looking at how to mobilise the Catholic Church around environmental issues. But the recent meeting with the Pope last, just last summer we were meeting with Greg Asner and Robin Asner, well known ecologists from Hawaii, with a chief from the Amazon, with a Muslim street kid, and with one of the climate campaigners from India, young climate strikers. And the purpose of the meeting was to sit round together with the Pope and to really ask ourselves, how can these different vastly different experiences of life but all that all share a common objective of caring for the planet and changing the way things are going, how can we work more together. And it was a very profound experience. Pope Francis talked, there's a parable in the Bible called the Tower of Babel where they’re trying to build this tower, but like the, there's a curse put on them where the people can't speak to each other. And he was saying to us that in our quest for climate, climate change, climate action and climate justice, between the scientists and the people of faith, indigenous and the youth, that's what it can often feel like that we're all just talking in our own bubbles in our own language. And there's no real collaboration and listening. And I think that's, that's what really characterised the meeting that we had with the Pope, which incidentally, will come out as a feature documentary later in the year.

Jim Scheer 15:54

Excellent.

Dr. Lorna Gold 15:55

That - this need for listening, this need for really listening to each other. And not trying to kind of say, Oh, well, the way we do it’s the right way. We've got all the answers. And then the people on the other side are like, well, no, we do it, everybody has a valid viewpoint. And we can all come around a table to recognize that we can, we're much stronger if we work together. And if we form and it's in my mind it’s the only thing that's going to change things now, is this, a sense that we can come together as a mass movement, as a movement that encompasses enables us to respect diversity, but to come together to really to work for climate action and climate justice?

Jim Scheer 16:44

It sounds like a really big conversation like it's about a global coming together and a global movement? Does it translate well down to a national level? Here in Ireland? I mean, we have the national dialogue on climate action, kicking off again this year. Do you see any parallels? Or what could we bring from that and learn for how we approach it here in Ireland?

Dr. Lorna Gold 17:04

Yeah, I mean, I think there's lots that can be done here. I think there's been many strides forward with climate action. And in the past 10 years in Ireland, it's when you look back to I mean, for me when I was working with Trócaire, and we were doing all the work around fossil fuel divestment, and then and then work around the first round of the climate assembly. When you look at where things are now, whilst we have a long way to go in terms of meeting targets and meeting them really like especially the sectoral targets, and how you how you actually operationalize those. There's we've made leaps and bounds forward. And I think the consciousness that there is now in the general public around climate change is really evident. But I think that this question to me of how do you engage faith and the kind of the faith communities and different sectors of society is one that perhaps we've not really taken on board yet, there is amazing work happening within the faith communities. Just last two weeks ago, I was involved with faith and based in a meeting in An Tairseach Ecological Centre run by the Dominican Sisters in Wicklow, an amazing little place you people can look it up. It really it offers a conferences, it offers sabbaticals for people to go and have, like, learn about eco spirituality, but we had a meeting there of representatives of around 50 religious orders. And I know there's other conversations in Ireland that are really difficult about history and about the legacy and nobody is denying that that's an important conversation. But these were religious orders that were looking at how they can use the assets that they have, and and the legacy that they have, and all the kind of heritage that's in a lot of the wonderful work that the religious orders have done over the years, how they can now put that to the service of climate action. And I mean some of the things they're doing in Ireland is another example I love. Many of them are involved in the eco congregations network which is a network an ecumenical network, which supports faith organisations in Ireland and in the UK, to be sustainable, more sustainable. So it's very practical stuff around how do you put make energy efficiency savings? How do you put solar panels on, retrofitting? I'm sure they've been in touch with SEAI and other things like biodiversity. How do you the church grounds are an amazing resource for biodiversity? And how do you green your investments, those kinds of things. But Ireland really is leading the way in many respects, but it's very silent in terms of the national conversation. There's nothing about this in the news, there's nothing about this kind of it even in the climate dialogues, I would say that we're just the whole heritage of the Celtic spiritualities, the deep kind of spiritual heritage of Ireland fit in with the modern national conversation on these issues.

Jim Scheer 20:30

Yeah, I think it's a really good point. And you talk about these, these meetings, and these these gatherings as being the movement and you know, couldn't agree more these communities that are coming together are the movement other people who and so what else could you share about the story of that day that, you know, sort of illustrates where we might bring that in terms of expanding it and here in Ireland?

Dr. Lorna Gold 20:54

Yeah. So I mean, I think that that day in the morning, for example, we had conversations with with different different religious origins, and we talked about some of the different projects that they are already doing. So the Kiltegans, the St. Patrick's Missionary Society, for example, in Kiltegan have are engaged with a project called the one acre project where they have a converted to a renewable energy source. And they have a willow, it's called the willow project. So they've a willow farm. And, and, but they're also facing kind of practical obstacles, one of one of the things that we find is that some of these religious, there's particular issues and concerns around the the places of worship, for example, the kind of they’re community buildings, they're not residencies, but they're not public buildings. So they and they often there's heritage issues around them. So we were discussing that issues are important to you go to where do you get the support? And is would there be a place, for example, for a particular kind of program that targeted faith communities, because faith communities are more than NGOs, they're not an NGO, in the same sense, as a Trócaire, or another organisation, they’re a vast network of communities that have physical assets, have financial assets, but also have this kind of intangible assets of influence in the community, but also networks in local communities? So that was one of the conversations was, well, would there be a place and where would you go for additional support on practical issues, for example, the planning obstacles that people face, like if even if they want to put up solar panels, basically what people were saying is, we can do a lot more, and we want to do a lot more. And we can do a lot more on our land, we can do a lot more with our buildings. But there seem to be some obstacles in the way and we don't really know who to go to. So that was one of the I think, having a way to figure that out, but also making it a more … opening up the conversation also at a deeper level of what is the role of faith communities in this conversation in Ireland today? And is there a place for people of faith to come together around climate change?

Jim Scheer 23:36

Seems like that's what you're creating? Where would people start if they if they're listening now? I mean, what was the best place for If people hear something in this thread? I mean, it's a very positive movement. How could they join and I mean what's …?

Dr. Lorna Gold 23:49

I mean I think they can contact Faith Invest that's contact me and I'll make my my details available to anybody who wants to get involved from a Faith Invest site or go on to the website faithinvest.org to find out about what is happening there's a whole page there which is about putting Laudato si’ into action. And I know that if people are in Ireland we there's multi faith communities but the majority are from the Christian world and I know that Laudato si’ really speaks to a lot of the Christians not just Catholic but Christian communities. So there's a lot on our Laudato si’ web page on laudat - on Faith Invest. If you're looking for something Ireland based I would suggest going to eco congregations Ireland and contacting them because they have a program for faith communities, which means that you can enrol and you can get support to make your community more sustainable.

Jim Scheer 24:54

Excellent. You talked about the six was it 16% of is it the Global landmass is overseen by different religions and faith organisations? What do you have some more figures? Do you have some figures for Ireland and then some other figures globally? You know, what's the scale of the potential here for, for these movements on their own land, I guess to start with?

Dr. Lorna Gold 25:17

yeah, I don't have any more detailed figures than that that figure is from a book called The World Atlas of Religions, which is in itself is a little bit dated, I think the last edition is 10 years old, and would be an amazing project for somebody to do to update that looking at the resources of the faiths. But I think that the projects that projects that we're working on with other faith communities have really shown that where land is owned or controlled by faith groups, there's almost like a kind of an effect around it, whereof land is deemed to be sacred. And the way that that kind of protects forests. This is a particular phenomenon in Southeast Asia, and around Buddhist temples, where they can see that the land around a temple is deemed to be sacred, and Buddhist monks, some in some places even have rituals, to consecrate the trees, which means that that tree can never be cut down. But in other faith, traditions or kind of other belief systems that are really strong, still in different parts of the world, that there is really a sense of respect for nature and for the protection of the forests. We’re involved with Faith Invest in promoting a major initiative called sacred forests, which has been a set up by a group called EcoSikh. And so each of the faiths now have these kind of ecological arms attached to them. So there's people Islam, there's EcoSikh, there's Laudato si’ in the Catholic world, and similar for other faiths, but EcoSikh, have really ambitious plans to for for tree growing and reforesting. So to plant sacred forests, all over the world, and they have just planted the first sacred forest in Ireland, which I think's wonderful, there's a very small Sikh community in Ireland. But if people go on to EcoSikh website, they'll be able to find the details of the sacred forest in Ireland.

Jim Scheer 27:39

Excellent. And like I was just thinking about, like growing up myself and I went to a Catholic school. But I stopped practising any formal religion, but I'd say, you know, I consider myself say spiritual on some level. What do you say to people who aren't involved in a organized faith? And how can they get involved? Or, you know, what, what, what, what role or, you know, what connections do you see there?

Dr. Lorna Gold 28:04

Well, firstly, it's about finding your kind of tribe. I think that's the first thing I found that in the climate movement and in the kind of, generally in life, I find that you need to find your tribe, I - at a deep level, and whether that's through organised religion, or whether that's through other practices, yoga, or other kind of spiritual practices, that help you to connect with yourself, whether it's in a mindful way, a spiritual way, but that I think everybody recognizes there's that deeper level of human experience human consciousness, that some of us find that an organised community, such as a parish or a church or a movement is, is the way to do that. Others it's a more personalised individual - but still finding that way to connect with others who share that is really, really helpful. And then joining with others I love now the work that I do in terms of the diversity, you know, it's, it's not that I'm meeting a Sikh and trying to convert them to Catholicism or a Hindu and trying to make them more more Catholic or something. It's about really recognizing the richness and diversity. And if we can agree that we want to work together to save our beautiful planet. That's something we can all agree on. Because there isn't a Catholic planet and a Hindu one and a Muslim one. There's one planet and a bit of humility as well. I think wouldn’t - goes a long way with people of faith with faith communities, we need to not be dogmatic. I think about our faith beliefs have a bit of humility in a bit of questioning a whilst recognizing the value of each other's traditions.

Jim Scheer 29:55

Yeah, that's great what you said. I think we're definitely better together.

Dr. Lorna Gold 29:57

Absolutely.

Jim Scheer 29:59

You talked about intergenerational issues where you may well at least you mentioned your kids and as part of the inspiration for the book, and we met at the climate strikes in Dublin, right back when they started, and we've seen a massive Youth Movement globally, and here in Ireland over recent years, and young people are really crying out for older generations to get our act together. How do you feel when you hear calls like these?

Dr. Lorna Gold 30:21

it breaks my heart to be honest, it really does it really. I mean, I was at the climate strike in Stockholm. I was at the UN United Nations Stockholm plus 50 conference two weeks ago. And there was a lot hot air. I have to say, at the conference, it was it was quite depressing to see how little has changed in 50 years. And then on the Friday, I went to the Stockholm Climate March climate strike. And as Greta Thunberg does every week, still, but there were about 5,000 there on that particular Friday. And I mean, there's the heartache, especially when I see young children at these marches, as I did in Glasgow last year, at the COP, or in Stockholm, I just kind of it grabbed something inside me. And I think why are we not just as grown ups, really taking this bull by the horns and doing everything that we can. And I think the heartache for me comes from the knowing how little time we have to turn this around and seeing the effects of global warming everywhere now. So if we had all the time in the world, I would feel inspired. But it was my generation that were marching 30 years ago. And still here we are another generation that are marching and calling the older generation out. So there's that heartache, but then listening to these young people and listening to the climate activists, you can't but be inspired by the sheer clarity of their thoughts. Someone said to me in Stockholm, we young people see really clearly because they haven't kind of bought into the system yet. They don't they don't have all the trappings of the mortgage and the car and the good job and everything. They've got nothing to lose, really. So they have this real laser sharp clarity on what is happening, what is wrong.

Jim Scheer 32:25

Yeah. So the older generation’s complicating things? I mean, on some level, it is simple. I mean, we have to stop using fossil fuels and do something about the food system. And, you know, are we are we getting in our own way? I mean …?

Dr. Lorna Gold 32:40

Yeah, I mean, if you think, like, what frustrates me? I mean, I was thinking about what frustrates me in the climate kind of the struggle for climate justice. I think that I mean, the biggest frustration now, for me is the kind of lack of lack of government action, on on climate change, and up to the level that we need, like, we saw in the COVID crisis, that governments can act, gosh, they could act, they could take away your your personal freedoms if they need to, for a for a health emergency, or, but there isn't the same set kind of resolve. And I think, in fact, after COVID, there's, there's a lot of fragmentation and a lot of competing kind of concerns. I'm not talking just about Ireland, but internationally. And now obviously, the whole war and conflict in Ukraine, there's so there's a lot of frustration that government is not acting on the science and acting with the requisite kind of urgency, especially given now that many, many of the solutions are there. I mean, this is what this is really, what angers me, we have the solutions we have the technologies we have what we need, if it was rapidly scaled up and taken with the level of seriousness that we took COVID, like, we can scale things up, we can do things we can act together. But you can't do that when another kind of whole part of the mechanism or let's say the system is undermining they almost see it as like the SEAI’s are doing some amazing work to bring sustainable energy communities to retrofit to it's all amazing work but then when there's fossil fuel subsidies and there’s kind of return a to looking at fracked gas and there's a talk of oil exploration you can do both at the same time. The count each, they count each other out and it sends mixed messages. Last year faith leaders from all over the all the different faiths signed a quite remarkable statement together before the COP, which got virtually unnoticed by most of the world. But I was part of a small group involved in that. And this, like, faith leaders often sign statements which have a lot of platitudes. And I'm seeing government's need to do this, and you need to change and but this statement was different. It had it said, all the kind of what's wrong. And then the second half of it said, and we as faiths, are now going to create bold plans for sustainability throughout the world. And we're going to align our investments to climate solutions. So, to me, as we said, right at the start, the fact that this is a bit of an untapped resource for in terms of the deep values and commitment that that many people have, can you imagine if every imam, and priest and Rabbi stood up on their holy day, and preached for climate justice, and preached for the end of fossil fuels, and then said, and we've taken all our investments out of fossil fuel companies, and we're putting solar panels on roofs on the roof, and we're putting a wind turbine in? And you know, it's the scalability of that is really huge.

Jim Scheer 36:28

Yeah. So it's, it's calling for something, but it's also taking action. I mean, you talked about a lot of the emotions that I think many people listening, have maybe felt at one time or another between frustration and anger, and, and even fear at the science or anxiety about what's going on and you sound massively motivated for your work? How do you stay in that place? And in a world of activity? Or how do you deal with those emotions when they come up for you? And, and, and keep going on this mission?

Dr. Lorna Gold 36:57

Yeah, it's a good question. I think that faith can be really good for that as well, that one of the things about let’s say spiritual community is, is having a space to take knowledge, the the grief and the pain, where do we turn in times of grief, even if people are not religious, they turn to the church generally. And I think that faith communities can be really part of a transformative kind of moment, through offering spaces, and many churches are doing this even in Ireland and creating welcoming spaces for people to come and kind of acknowledge the way the world is and grieve for the passing of the species. And it's because we are in a moment of grief in society for the world that perhaps we would have dreamt of, in terms of especially I feel, in terms of biodiversity is the thing that really strikes me. And we need to acknowledge that, we can't deny it. And I think that it's very spirituality can really help with that. But it can also help us to move forward.

Jim Scheer 38:10

So it sounds like what you're saying is it's very important, first of all, just to face the truth, or or the state of play where we're at now.

Dr. Lorna Gold 38:20

Absolutely. I mean, I think that you have to do that in order to kind of move forward. It's hard to stay in that place sometimes because it can be I think that there is a real wave coming now of somebody called it climate doomism. And I think that when that seeps into the public, it can be really dangerous because people think, well, what's the point? What's the point of doing anything? And but there's a there's a balance between facing up to the truth of the situation and not falling into doomism. And I really take in a lot from Greta Thunberg. And it’s not just Greta Thunberg. But the whole idea of active hope, Joanna Macy’s idea of active hope and I love. She's got lots of books about how do you kind of move out of that place of like, kind of paralysis into hope. And the idea of active hope is that, that hope’s a doing word, it's not a feeling. I might feel like less optimistic some days are more optimistic others, but hope is something that we build. And that like on the Friday’s going to the climate strikes or whenever I engage in a conversation to build the movement. I come away from that feeling more hopeful, because hope is something that we create and we build together. So that idea that active hope and Greta Thunberg said hope comes when we act and only then. Sitting at home, doing nothing, feeling depressed about the situation is a spiral. It can it only leads to more disempowerment and doom? But even thinking about one thing you can do each day? One thing that is an action that builds movement that builds hope? Is it really I mean, I find great kinds of energy when I think when I'm able to say to myself, that hope is a verb, hope’s an active word.

Jim Scheer 40:25

Excellent. Finally, Lorna as we've done with other guests, we’ll ask you now to look to the future. And this is a kind of an imagination piece in a way. Maybe it's a storytelling piece, I'm not sure. But when you think about the future, say in 2050? What do you see for Ireland and globally? In terms of, you know, how have we gone and addressing this, this climate and biodiversity crisis?

Dr. Lorna Gold 40:50

I think that people will look back and will see that there was a moment, a moment where people realised that the way things were going couldn't continue. And they started to make changes that in their personal lives, in their communities, and also putting pressure for government to make change, that they realised that they couldn't just sit back and let other people make the changes, they had to make the changes themselves. And that - from my point of view, I think that I can see that the faith communities played a really big role in that, looking back, that there was a wake up call from Pope Francis, from Patriarch Bartholomew, from many different faith leaders, who said, we need to act urgently to change the way things are going. And they called on their followers to do that. But they didn't do it alone. They joined forces with others, and with people with no faith at all, with the scientists because they believed in the science, which was the ironic thing, people thought at the time. Here's the faith leaders believing in the science and calling us to change. But that, to me, was the pivotal moment where things started to change, and people started to wake up. And I'm really, I think, in 2050, I don't know if I'll be around, maybe I will with my great grandchildren. Hopefully, we'll be sitting on the other side of a major crisis. And we'll say, wasn't it amazing how people came together and took action.

Jim Scheer 42:48

I hope you're right. Lorna, thank you so much for your time today. And for all your work and sharing your experience with us. Really appreciate it. And thanks for the conversation.

Dr. Lorna Gold 42:56

Thanks, Jim.

Jim Scheer 42:57

Thank you for listening to today's podcast. We hope you enjoyed our conversation and it's left you in action and hopeful for our future. Please visit seai.ie/podcast for information on each of our guests this season and links to further relevant material to support you around your own climate actions or resources if you're suffering from any climate anxiety. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to 180 Degrees and rate the podcast to help us spread the word.