Erin: Alpaca pals, like many, my job went fully remote in 2020,

and it's remained that way.

Earlier this year, I decided to take advantage of my ability to

work from anywhere I packed up and I went to Puerto Vallarta, Mexico.

I spent 10 glorious days there balancing work with exploring the c ity, eating,

hiking, swimming, and just hanging out.

It was a new approach to travel that I hadn't experienced before.

And I really liked it.

My decision to work from another city is not unique.

In the last two years, we've seen a massive pandemic driven

shift toward remote work.

For lots of people this has meant that they are suddenly

able to work from anywhere.

We are seeing traditional notions of work, evolving as more and more folks take the

leap and become location independent.

According to data from MBO Partners in 2019, there were 7.3 million Americans

who identified as digital nomads, but between 2019 and 2020, this figure rose

by a staggering 49% to 10.9 million.

Then in 2021, the number of American digital nomads searched

up to 15.5 million people.

So what does this huge embrace of digital nomadism mean for travel?

Brent: Like any community there are like -- literally any group of human

beings -- there are gonna be nice people and they're gonna be jerks and

there's gonna be everything in between.

You know, I I've drunk the Kool-Aid and I think that for the most part,

nomads are pretty awesome people.

Erin: This is Alpaca My Bags, the responsible travel podcast here

to help you travel in a way that's better for you and for the planet.

I'm Erin Hynes travel writer, accompanied as always by my producer, Kattie Laur.

Today, we're talking about all things digital nomadism with travel couple

and writers, Brent and Michael.

They've been digital nomads for several years and write the

fantastic newsletter called "Brent and Michael Are Going Places".

But before we get into the show, make sure you're subscribed.

Go and hit the follow button right now if you haven't already, on Apple

Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast app so you don't miss any of the

episodes we have lined up this season.

Kattie: If you wanna stay connected, you can also follow us on Instagram,

TikTok, and Twitter @ alpacamybagspod.

And if you wanna support us in an extra special way, you can become a part

of the Alpaca Pal herd on Patreon.

Erin: We also always love to hear from you so you can DM or even email us anytime.

All our contact info is in the show notes.

So Kattie, have you ever tried working remote?

Kattie: You know what?

I actually seriously considered it.

After your trip to Puerto Vallarta, after you came back, I was like, man,

Erin's trip was really, really nice.

And I was thinking about doing a week long trip to New York city.

And I told you a little bit about it in the past, but I decided

to actually cancel it because,

like real talk, I'm in the midst of building a fence in my backyard and

it's like thousands of dollars so I was just like, and also I have to build it.

So I have to be home for the summer to deal with this fence thing.

But once things start to settle again, I'm actually seriously considering

going to New York and working remotely from there because I also wanna

check out some of the theater scene.

I wanna check out the gay village.

I wanna check out Stonewall.

There's a whole bunch of things in New York that I want to eat a lot of food.

And drink a lot of cocktails.

So like, I can just picture already how great of a week I would have

just working from a little Airbnb or something during the day, and then

exploring all the New York city life nightlife all by myself too, is what I

was kind of thinking was doing it solo.

Erin: Okay.

It's funny that we're recording this now because we actually

recorded this episode with Brent and Michael a couple months ago.

And when we met with them, I hadn't actually gone to Puerto Vallarta yet

and it was in chatting with them that I was inspired to go because they

told me how much they loved spending a few months in Puerto Vallarta.

So they really inspired me and like kicked my butt into gear and so I went.

And, I felt like it was a really different type of trip

compared to what I normally do.

I think first of all, it was very slow.

I don't know how else to put it.

I never felt pressure to tick things off of my list because I

went into the trip really thinking this is just like getting to know my

neighborhood while I casually work.

I didn't treat it as a go, go, go kind of trip like I normally do.

I mean, I always like to slow travel, but I also like to be busy.

So when Luke and I travel, we'll usually like do a lot throughout the day.

But on this trip, I just had a very like, slow day.

I would work early in the morning, stop working around 3PM

and I never really had a plan.

I would just go out and wander through the neighborhoods, eat

some tacos, go to the beach.

I just never had a plan.

And it was really nice.

And 10 days there was the perfect amount of time for me, because I felt like I

really got to know Puerto Vallarta, and I didn't put pressure on myself to do

a lot of like the day trips and stuff.

I really wanted to just focus on Puerto Vallarta.

And I was able to really do that, which was nice.

Kattie: Yeah, honestly, like I kind of wanna spend 10 days working remotely,

just so I can like go to the grocery store and see like all the cool

different things that exist there.

Like make some dinner at a little Airbnb and just kind of sit on a balcony

and drink wine and observe the world.

Like, I, it's just a change of scenery that I think I would love

more than anything rather than going to see all the things go, go, go.

I mean, if I was in New York, I would 1000% be tempted to go do all the things.

And I think that was originally part of my plan, but it was all kind of

revolving around like, what's close to me?

What can I get to quickly after work?

The idea of me just like, it's lunchtime.

I need some food.

I'm gonna like pop by a bodega and get a sandwich and then come back and just

like munch on it while I wrap up, like rest of my editing, I love that idea.

Am I romanticizing it too much?

Like what

I love it.

Erin: You're not.

Cause that's really what it was like.

I actually did that.

Like every day on my lunch, I would walk to the nearby market and just

shop for like veggies and produce.

And I had my little routine there, which was nice.

I could have done it for much longer.

I could have been there for three months.

The only reason I wasn't is because I have a partner and a cat at home

that would not be happy about that.

So we're slowly working towards potentially all three of us going

and doing this, we just need to work on the job situation a bit.

Overall, it was an amazing experience and I hope to, to do it again sometime.

Kattie: That's the one thing I'm struggling with is like, not feeling

guilt doing it by myself, cuz I would.

You know, I've never done solo travel by myself either.

So I really wanna get some solo travel in, but I feel so guilty

leaving Mark and Joe at home.

I feel so guilty.

Erin: Don't.

I know okay.

Well I do feel a bit guilty, but honestly I've told this to people before.

When we take trips apart, Luke is on a trip right now.

Like he's up at a cottage in Muskoka.

When we take these times apart it strengthens our relationship because we

come back to the relationship so fresh.

We have so much to talk about.

It reminds us how much we like spending time together because we have a little

bit of space to miss each other.

It adds excitement to our relationship.

So actually like every time one of us pitches that we, we go and

do our own thing for a bit like the other one is in full support.

Kattie: The thing is I love that.

Erin: I don't know that I could leave him for a full month, little blips, like 10

days, two weeks that I can do for sure.

Kattie: Okay, so I wanted to talk to you about something that we noticed

while we were both traveling this summer - spring - whenever that was,

about like our experiences on TikTok when we swapped out our SIM cards.

So do you wanna like, kind of throw it out all, all on the table and like

what it is that I'm thinking here?

Erin: Yeah, I'll lay the groundwork first, cuz I think an important thing to know is

that TikTok shows content to people based on your SIM card that's in your phone.

So when I'm in Toronto and I have my Canadian SIM card in my phone,

the algorithm pushes my content primarily to people that are nearby.

So in Toronto and across Ontario it will push content out like, further to other

countries even sometimes, but usually it'll do some testing and see where it's

picking up and then focus on that area.

So what I've noticed is when you switch your SIM card, so for example, the

first time I noticed this was when I was in Portugal last fall, I put in

a Portuguese SIM card and suddenly my TikToks were going out to people local to

Portugal, like anyone who is in Portugal.

And I also noticed like, the content that was served to me was all Portuguese

and it was kind of fun cuz I would watch these talks and not understand them.

And I would send them to my friend who speaks Portuguese and I'd be like,

can you, can you translate this for me so I can understand this joke.

So this is important to note because when I went to Mexico, I noticed something

different when I switched my SIM card.

So throughout Portugal I posted a couple TikToks about my trip and

I noticed overwhelmingly so much support coming from local people.

I got a lot of comments from people sharing tips, or just

saying welcome to my city.

It, it felt very supportive.

When I went to Puerto Vallarta, I posted a couple times and one, one of my TikToks

actually drew a lot of negative attention.

I made a joke about how whenever I travel somewhere, I do

dream about moving there now.

It was a joke.

Like that's how I intended it.

But of course, like intentions don't always have the same

impact that you expect.

And people, local people that watched it, took it very literally and were

commenting to me, "don't move here.

Don't come here.

We don't want you.

We're tired of, of digital nomads coming here and like taking our

property, filling up the city."

And after that, like, I, I actually apologized like one by one to everyone and

explained, like, this was actually a joke.

I have no intention of moving to Puerto Vallarta.

But I talked with other bloggers that I met while I was in Puerto

Vallarta and they told me the same thing that they were feeling a bit

of hostility whenever they posted.

And so this got me thinking about how, first of all, this is something

that differentiates TikTok from Instagram in terms of the algorithm.

You normally don't get exposure to like local communities when

you're posting, it's mostly going towards like your already, um,

developed community on Instagram.

So with TikTok, you're getting exposure to people that you normally wouldn't.

And I think it can provide like an interesting picture into how

people are feeling about tourists, but also about digital nomads

and or expats and immigrants.

It gives you this pulse that Instagram doesn't.

I noticed this and I thought it was really interesting.

So in the future, we might dig into this little more deeply on the podcast.

Kattie: Yeah.

There's a lot to explore here around like TikTok's just ability

to tap into these local communities.

It's really interesting.

Cuz when I was in Portugal, one of the videos that came across my screen was a

Portuguese man talking about the impact of people moving to Portugal because it's so

cheap from other places and how he, it was the same messaging, he just wasn't stoked

about it and wanted people to reconsider.

One fun thing that did happen, one of the natural pools that we went to go

swim at, um, on Madeira Island, it was one of the ones that weren't as popular,

there's three major ones on the island.

So we went there and we had, we had a great time and I posted a video

kind of like a little recap video to TikTok and a whole bunch of

Portuguese people were commenting on me on it being like, "where is this?"

And I know they were Portuguese cuz they were commenting in Portuguese and

I had to translate it and be like, oh they're asking like where this is.

So it was kind of cool connecting with locals and just kind of telling them

about little hidden gems that they didn't know about that I was finding.

And I was like, Ooh, am I from, am I Portuguese now?

But yeah, TikTok is so cool that way.

And I love it for that reason that it, it can just tap into so many

communities in such a unique way that, like you and I have talked about many

times before, instagram just can't.

Well, should we get into this episode with Brent and Michael,

because they are both amazing and this conversation is also amazing?

Erin: Yes.

I'm so excited to share this convo with you Alpaca Pals.

Let's do it.

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And tell Evan we say hi.

So welcome to Alpaca My Bags, Michael and Brent, I mentioned in the intro

that you both are digital nomads.

And so obviously I want to start by asking where in the world are you now?

And I'd also like to know what your favorite thing about

wherever you are, is so far.

Michael: Well, first I wanna tell you how excited we are to be here.

I've been listening to you guys for two seasons now.

You're absolutely one of my favorite podcasts.

And you always leave me with a big smile on my face.

So just really thank you for having us.

Um, we're currently in Sitgus, a Spain after spending a, a quick

three weeks in the United States.

And my favorite thing here is probably the sound of the ocean, we were in

Croatia for three months and the Adriatic is absolutely beautiful.

Um, but it's really mostly calm and you don't hear a lot of surf,

so I've loved going for walks and hearing the crashing waves.

Erin: Oh yeah.

There's nothing like that sound.

I love it too.

Um, so I know you've both been digital nomads for quite some time now,

could you share with us the story of how you became digital nomads?

I'm curious about how the idea to become nomads came up.

And then how you took that from being an idea to real life.

Also just like your feelings about it.

Was it scary?

Was it something you debated it a lot or was it like an

absolute yes, let's just do it?

Give us the details.

Brent: Well, the short story is it was the night of the election.

In 2016, we were at an election party expecting Hillary Clinton to be president

and early on in the evening, it became clear that Trump was gonna be elected.

And so it was not a very fun party.

Uh, we left early, everybody left early.

We were at a very morbid, depressing drive home.

And I turned to Michael and I said, "let's sell the house and move the country."

"I, I don't like the direction this country's going.

Let's leave."

And Michael thought for a couple of seconds and said, "okay."

And within, uh, two months we had, we had sold the house and then we had--

Michael: I wanna emphasize, the story about Donald Trump, that

drive home is literally true.

That is not dressed up for a fun story to tell.

We were in the car feeling suicidal.

He looked at me and said, "let's leave the country."

So that was, that is the genesis of it.

But what sort of is funny is that when we decided to do this, we'd

never heard the term digital nomad.

Brent: Mm-hmm

Michael: We didn't really know what we were doing.

We were just going to go and live abroad.

And, and at one point during that year, I was reading the Sunday, New York times.

I was reading this article about digital nomads.

And as I was reading this description, I was thinking, they're talking

about this thing called co-living and how these people live.

And I'm thinking, "this sounds like what we want to do."

So we started researching digital nomads and co-living, I, I think our friends

thought we were all blowing off steam when we said we were gonna do this.

And then six weeks later, the house was sold.

And a year later we were on the road.

Erin: First, I just have to say, the Donald Trump story is funny to

me because I think that everyone knows where they were the minute

that Donald Trump was elected.

I was on a flight to Vietnam and I remember landing.

And the first thing I did was like, check my phone and just was like, "Ugh."

It was like a 15 hour flight.

Right.

So when I got on the plane, I still had hope . But when I got

off, it was like all hope crushed.

Brent: It was just so surreal.

The whole thing.

Erin: Yeah, it really was.

So you're writers, you knew that you could continue earning income in the

way you did at home as you traveled, as you went into this lifestyle.

Brent: Yeah.

That's what's sort of interesting that sort of, sort of like, uh, you know,

Dorothy Gale in the wizard of us.

We always had the power, you know, and we didn't really know it.

We could have done this at any time.

And, and I think that's why we talked about it because

we have maximum flexibility.

Why are we choosing to live in one of the most expensive cities on earth, Seattle?

But yes, I I'm a screenwriter and a novelist and Michael is also a novelist.

And now we do a newsletter about our travels called Brent

and Michael Are Going Places.

Michael: It's a little complicated.

I mean, we did have friends and family and Brent's dad,

you know, is, is a, a widower.

And we spent a lot of time with him.

So there were things that were, were keeping this there until this moment

in time where we decided, "okay, now it's time to, to get a move on."

Uh, but yeah, the career-wise, we knew that we were very fortunate that we

could go anywhere we wanted in the world.

You know, maybe sometimes we'd have to get up really early or stay up

really late to take a phone call.

But for the most part, we could do what we do it wherever we're at.

Brent: We're particularly well suited to do this.

I think, you know, because we don't, a lot of our friends have to be in

touch with an office constantly.

We don't have to do that.

We can check in once a once a week if we want.

So.

Erin: Yeah.

So I will tell you, I had one little blip as a digital nomad.

Not really cuz it was just a week, but I spent a week on the east coast

working and I have to say it wasn't as glamorous as I expected it would be

because I ran into a lot of problems.

I was on PEI, there isn't great wifi everywhere on the island.

If a hotel or an Airbnb says they have wifi, the question

is how good is that wifi?

And I, I hadn't done it before, so I didn't know to ask that and

sure enough, like it's 9:00 AM.

I'm trying to log on for a call and the wifi cannot hold the call.

And so I actually found it like quite stressful.

It was a good learning experience.

Like now I know that you have to really check for those things, but I think

working a job, like a corporate job like what I have, as a digital nomad

wouldn't be quite as easy, cuz like my day is very structured, according to

like the needs of the company, which doesn't lend itself quite as well to

like living somewhere somewhere else.

But I'm sure I could sort it out like if I actually did it long term.

But from that little experience I was, I was pretty stressed out.

Brent: The time zones are weird, you know, I do a lot of, uh, pitch meetings.

But I do them in the evening typically.

And you know, so I sort of stress about it all day and, and I'm not necessarily,

you know, I've worked all day and so I'm kind of exhausted and yeah, there

are, there are absolute challenges.

Of course, there are also great benefits at this point.

We would certainly not trade it.

Erin: And so how do you decide where you'll go?

Are there criteria that you think about?

And I also need to know, do you ever disagree about what

place you want to go next?

Is it ever a discussion to decide?

Brent: Oh yes.

Michael: Oh, it's never that [bad] -- how we decide -- so our first year

I was really uptight about it and I planned everything out in advance.

And after the first stop, everything fell apart and that sort of forced us

to become more adaptable at that point.

In the first year, we were sort of looking at co-living and, and digital

nomad places that we really, you know, we needed to go there so we could have

something we felt comfortable with.

But then after that first year, something surprising happened,

a couple surprising things.

The first one is that we started to develop a network of

digital nomad friends, and we sort of formed this community.

And then we also started learning about these other places we'd never

heard of before that were interesting places to be digital nomads, that your

regular tourists might not hear of.

So it became this combination of, "this sounds really interesting",

like an island in, in Colan or in Thailand or a place in Vietnam, but

then also our friends were going there.

It sort of is a constant state of, of flux.

Brent: I said, I had a vision before we did it.

And part of the vision was right, but part of the vision was wrong.

I sort of thought, oh, we would be living in Paris and Rome and London.

We've lived in those cities and it's like, I don't really wanna

live in a big city, a it's a city and it's expensive and it's busy.

And, and sometimes things are even more spectacular when they're not famous.

Sometimes famous things are legitimately spectacular, but sometimes they're not.

And sometimes there is something just as spectacular that isn't famous.

Also a lot easier to get to know the locals because they're not jaded.

They're actually really excited to meet us.

And oftentimes they're confused as to why we're living in their community.

I'm actually the fussy one in the relationship.

Like I'm high stress, I'm high maintenance, but Michael has a very

narrow, uh, temperature parameter.

He doesn't like things too cold.

He doesn't like things too hot, so that's a factor.

Michael: Um, unless taking pictures then I'll suffer anything.

Brent: We, we try to follow the spring or the summer.

Um, so all these things, you know, friends.

Uh, things we've read things.

We've heard about a lot of word of mouth.

That's typically word of mouth.

Somebody has been at someplace.

Michael: In terms of disagreement, we have both come to a point where

the whole world seems interesting.

Everything seems like it's going to be interesting.

And so we're kind of intrepid and, and willing to kind of go anywhere.

And if he's more excited about a place I'm like, okay, that's fine.

The only thing we ever disagree on a little bit is the length of time.

I tend to wanna move a bit more quickly.

Like after a month I'm starting to get itchy feet.

After two months, I can potentially be driving him crazy.

Brent: And I'm, I'm a true "slowmad".

I like the idea of being somewhere for two to three months.

If it's a place that we like, if we really are, you know, rocking the vibe.

Michael: But that works out because sometimes for different reasons, we

need to travel a little more quickly.

So we wil hit four places in two months.

And then I know he's getting a little tired and be like, sure, absolutely.

We're gonna go to Croatia.

We're gonna park it for three months and we will just stay there.

We're in a relationship.

We, we are good to each other and compromise.

Brent: Generally we stay -- we live places between one and three months,

and then we stop somewhere in between.

Like we'll stop and Budapest or, uh, yeah.

Someplace that might be more touristy and will stay there for a week or two.

Erin: Yeah.

Oh, that's a good system.

I like that.

So you do take time to be like, quote unquote tourist in certain spots.

Michael: Oh, sure.

Yeah.

Oh, sure.

Brent: But then we also are able to sort of relax and, and get to know

a place and it becomes home and to, and then we can get work done.

You know, we can really focus on our work.

Erin: I love the term "slowmad."

I don't think I've ever heard it before.

It's such a great, great description.

Brent: We thought we had made it up, but it turns out it preexisted

our our, our coining the term.

Erin: I also just love hearing the dynamics and relationships

of, of how people travel together.

My partner literally last night was laughing cuz he was like, I don't think

I've ever chosen where we travel to.

Usually what happens is I will constantly be pitching things.

And then like eventually he'll say yes.

Digital nomadism is on the rise.

And as a result countries all over the world are introducing digital

nomad visas, but did you know that many new digital nomad visas

require you to buy health insurance?

Kattie: That's right.

And actually some destinations require proof that you have travel

insurance, even for a brief trip.

Erin: But let's be real travel insurance is something you should be investing

in, regardless of if it's required.

That's why I always get world nomads, travel insurance, whether you're staying

in a country for a few days or a few months, it's important to remember that

some C's medical systems are fragile and have limited services and capability.

Having an insurance like world nomads helps ensure that you don't become a

burden on the local people and economy.

If you end up needing medical help, world nomads has simple and flexible benefits

that include trip cancellation, emergency medical expense, baggage cover, and more

buy cover for your trip anytime, anywhere.

While at home or ready on the road, benefits, limits

conditions and exclusions apply.

Be sure to read your policy wording, learn more and get a quote at worldnomads.com.

The link is in our show notes.

So I'd love to demystify who digital nomads are and what they do, because

I see - and I'm sure you've seen it too- this very repetitive image

of digital nomads on social media.

I think we've seen it increasingly throughout the pandemic as well as

more people realize that, um, the lifestyle is accessible to them.

Um, so I'd say like the sort of stereotype that I see is usually

young women or a young couple living in their converted vehicle,

selling eBooks, doing brand deals.

Um, so could you describe the nuance of who digital nomads are?

Brent: It's also not accurate to those people.

Cause we've met a lot of those influencers and they, they talk

frankly about their lives to us.

Yeah.

And it's not at all what you would see on Instagram.

So it's not even true for these people.

Erin: Yeah.

Michael: Digital nomads are complicated people like everybody else.

There's all kinds of different people and, and digital nomads

can change throughout their times.

Digital nomads, I always say, it depends on what part of the digital nomad elephant

you are touching or the Instagram elephant you're touching because you can certainly

go on Instagram and find those people that you're talking about, but if you take

some time and do some research, you can find people who are doing other things.

There's a, a young Polish woman named Eva Zubek, who is one of the

biggest Instagram travel influencers.

And she is the opposite of what you're talking about.

I mean, she's much more realistic about what her life is like, you know, she'll

show herself in her, her van at, you know, two in the morning as the rain is pounding

outside, or she got hit by a cow one time.

And, you know, she, she shared with that.

So you can find that you can, you know, Google, digital nomads, and, you know,

responsible travel, all kinds of different things and find people who are not selling

eBooks and doing that sort of things.

And frankly, most digital nomads, you are not going to see them publicly anyway,

because they're just living their lives.

Instagram, Instagram, doesn't give us a realistic view of pretty much

anything, including digital nomads.

Brent: But I mean, it feels like we're in the midst of like a nomad

backlash the last couple years.

There's been this backlash against nomads and, and it frustrates me because

like any community, there are like literally any group of human beings

there are gonna be nice people and there are gonna be jerks and there's

gonna be everything in between.

You know, I I've drunk the Kool-Aid.

And I think that for the most part, nomads are pretty awesome people.

And I think it's for a lot of different reasons, I think travel attracts a certain

kind of person who's sort of more, more open minded and more willing to engage.

And I also think travel changes a person.

If you're doing it right, then you become a better person.

And I'm kind of just, I mean, you know, the first year it's like

we have yet to meet sort of an a-hole no nomad, that's less true.

I mean, we've met people, you know, that we don't necessarily connect

with right away, or that rub us the wrong way after five years.

But I think we're a really good group of group of peopl for the most part.

I love nomads.

We meet great people all the time.

Erin: Well, and this it's not the same, but just my experience, like traveling

in hostels long term I've, I've lived in hostels for up to nine months at a time.

The amount of times that I would come across someone that I didn't like,

quote unquote, like or jive with, it was very rare because we had that sort

of common point of entry that we, we were both very interested in the world.

And in general, I would say like the travel community, when you're traveling

long term, you encounter people that are very like-minded and, and

they're generally really good people.

Brent: Yeah.

And I mean, I, I feel like they've sort of rejected American consumerism

oftentimes, and they're living a more modest, simple lifestyle.

I mean, there's definitely sort of the contingent that is doing it

for the low cost of living or to evade taxes or, or whatever, they're

entrepreneurs, that's their business.

And I may not, you know, mesh with those people.

This is why I read all these nasty articles and start, you

know, and I, and I think, "boy that isn't my experience at all".

And part of me thinks it's just click bait.

Erin: Well, and I mean, we see these criticisms of travel in general as well.

Like I've been criticized, personally, been criticized for flying.

Like people have said to me, why do you fly so much?

You're flying several times a year.

Like if you care about responsible tourism, why are you doing that?

There's always a way to criticize like every single community.

So I wanna dig into some of the criticisms that are floating around on

the internet about digital nomadism, and then maybe we can unpack them a little.

One common criticism is that digital nomadism is reserved for the

privileged and that because digital nomads are often temporarily in a

place, they don't have any stake in working toward positive change in the

community that they're staying in.

So for example, they might not challenge gentrification, like someone who lives

in a place permanently or long term.

Just anecdotally, I have seen digital nomads selling eBooks that use low

cost of living as a selling point, for example, move to Costa Rica or Bali

because you can work from there for cheap.

And you'll have a really amazing lifestyle because you'll get to pay low

rent and eat street food the whole time.

I know from knowing both of you that this is not representative

of the digital nomad community.

All that said, I do think it's true that anyone who has the flexibility and base

funds to become a digital nomad definitely does benefit from privilege of some sort.

And there are a lot of ways that digital nomads have access to benefit in a

community that locals might not have.

So, I've said a lot.

What are your thoughts?

Michael: The first thing that popped in my mind is in terms of the privilege, we've

thought and talked a lot about privilege.

And the fact of the matter is as two white north American cisgender

males, we have a lot of privilege.

We write about that.

We're aware of it.

But that privilege is going to exist no matter where we are.

So the question for us becomes, is our privilege because -- I'm, I'm,

unfortunately I'm not, you know, mother Teresa, I'm not going to go out and give

away all of the money I've I've worked for and, and be that wonderful of a

person -- so is my privilege better off my staying in Seattle, living in my, you

know, house in Seattle, spending my money in Seattle or am I better off going to a

country like Bulgaria, which has lost 2 million people since the end of, of the

cold war and is economically struggling?

Am I better off going, and yes benefiting, because I'm able to afford a nice

apartment that costs me considerably less?

But by the same token, I am injecting money into the Bulgarian economy?

So I, that, that's the, the privilege part of how I feel about that.

You wanna talk about what we have access to?

Brent: Yeah.

I mean, I find this argument really sort of infuriating because

it's so at odds with my personal experience and the experience of

almost every nomad I've ever met.

If you breeze into town, and don't engage or even observe the community.

I guess you can be individualistic, but I am seriously perplexed by

anybody, how anybody could do this.

How anybody could live in Mexico city or live in Bali or live in Thailand or

live at Vietnam and not absorb what the local culture is and be impacted by the

disparity between the two lifestyles.

You know, the Western lifestyle and the lifestyle and the country.

And then for me, and for every nomad I've ever met, these abstract

issues of economic inequality and disparity become real in a way.

"Oh, my gosh, this person that is my friend, the world is so unjust," and I

knew that on some intellectual level, but now I know it on a practical level.

This person that's so awesome and so talented and so smart has access to

so much less of the world than I do.

I don't know how that can't change you and make you more open hearted.

And then these, you know, we started traveling, we were vaccinated.

Uh, it looked like, uh, COVID was waning last year.

And we decided to, to begin traveling again, and we were

very thoughtful about it.

We were, we were gonna be masked.

And, you know, we got a lot of crap, a lot of criticism from people.

"How dare you travel?

This is so irresponsible."

It was interesting.

We ended up in, in Istanbul and we got to know this fellow in our

apartment building who had, he'd been raised in extreme poverty.

Poverty that shocked me hearing him tell his stories.

You know, he didn't go to school and he lost everything with COVID.

And he had, he had worked, he eventually worked started selling dart

glasses in, in the grand bazaar and he worked his way to owning a shop.

And then he lost everything when COVID hit, because of course they don't

have a, a social safety net in Turkey.

And finally tourism is starting again.

And he's so grateful.

And all these people that we're meeting, his friends that he's introduced, they're

so grateful and I think, well, it's really easy for privileged Westerners to

say, "well, don't travel, stay at home".

You know, "you're being irresponsible," and I'm hearing from these Turkish

people, "my life was destroyed.

Please come.

Because if you don't come, I'm literally not gonna be able to eat".

I'm getting a little heated because, because I have met so many.

You know, in Mexico, and it's a day economy where if people do not work

that day, they do not eat that night.

Families do not eat that night.

I don't know we could be, we could have been locked down in the United

States, but I felt really good that we were in Puerta Vallarto and we were

able to shop from local merchants and do take-away from local restaurants.

And we donated, you know, we gave our, our stimulus to the local

food bank when we got the stimulus.

And I just, I felt like for me, that was the right thing to do.

The issue is complicated.

I, I acknowledge all of these issues that you're talking about, but

nomads, we do talk about these issues.

Michael: Well, even pre COVID.

I, I reject the idea that, you know, nomads, digital nomads, across the board

don't care anything about their community.

That that's very frustrating.

I can't speak for all nomads, but for us and most of the people we know.

When we lived in Italy, um, we lived in a town called Matara down in

Southern Italy, and we spoke to the first gay rights group that had formed.

We're a gay couple and shared our story with them because we, I, when I heard,

you know, sort of what their life was like, I cared and I wanted to do what we

could with our platform and our privilege to share with them and, and, you know,

not inspire them, but to tell them our story so that they could think about it

and, and take what they could from it.

Same thing in Georgia.

We lived in Tbilisi for three months and we got to know, uh, Giorgi Tabagari, who

is the leading gay rights activist there.

And again, we used our little platform to write about the issues of, of

Georgia backsliding on, on gay rights and how they've been treating, you

know, the, their LGBTQ population.

And we've continued to, to follow that as we go along.

And even it trickles down to little things like in, in Thailand, every

Sunday, there would be a beach cleanup that Westerners would go

and participate in as they should.

You know, they're there contributing to the, the trash problem.

Brent: So, I mean, nomading is not, we're not doing this out of altruism.

You know, we, we, we love it and we benefit massively from it.

You know, we're, we have Western salaries and we're living in, often living in

countries with a lower standard of living.

And there's a massive benefit to us and there's massive privilege.

But at the same time, I do think, you know, you have to weigh the

different things that are going on.

And I do think, I strongly believe that it is a net positive in the world.

You know, we make these connections.

We start to see that borders are not real.

Borders are artificial and they're so unjust and they're so unfair and

there's so much unfairness in the world.

Michael: Well, I just think it's our responsibility to know things about the

places we live and in whatever little ways we can, to do something about it.

Erin: You know, you make me think about something that like I personally

have struggled with at times.

Like obviously I also was born into a lot of privilege and I've thought about,

I can't change the fact that I have privilege, like that will never change in

my life, but I can control how I use it.

And I think that applies to this situation because you acknowledge

that you have privilege in just even being able to access this lifestyle.

But as you say, you are doing everything you can to make sure that

you use it in the right way and give back to the communities that you're

visiting and also are growing from it.

Michael: I don't even know that you necessarily have to go and

actively try and do positive things to be having a better impact.

I, I just having lived in Eastern Europe and seeing how many people

have left the country and how many, you know, how many businesses are

struggling and in Bulgaria, there's empty apartment buildings sitting there.

If even if all you do is go there and rent an apartment from a landlord

who doesn't have a tenant, you have taken some of the wealth out of north

America and brought it to Bulgaria.

And that's a good thing.

I absolutely think you should do more, but I firmly believe that is better.

That trade off is better than just staying at home and

enjoying your Western life there.

Brent: I mean, as Michael said, we talk about this a lot and I do think

you know, as more of the world, all of the world is exposed to Western modern

media they want a modern lifestyle.

Understandably.

They see our lifestyle and, and, and much of it is just objectively good.

You know, modern medicine is objectively good.

And you know, you can't fault people for wanting to participate in that.

So one way or another.

These countries are going to be developed.

And I mean, you can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

I mean, I don't wanna be an apologist because I think there are a lot of

problems with tourism and there's a lot of irresponsibility going on, but I do

think of a lot of all of the choices in many cases, I think tourism is the

least bad option, you know, because if it wasn't tourism, it's gonna be

some conglomerate from China coming in and vacuuming up the local seafood

resource or whatever, or mowing down the, the Mong Grove swamp or whatever.

I personally feel very comfortable cause I've had this conversation with so many

people throughout the world and they are, they want us to come and they're sad or

frustrated or when, when we don't come.

And I know that's the legacy of colonialism and inequality and

exploitation and all of that, but I really do believe that of all of

the, the options, travel is maybe the least bad one in many cases.

Erin: So one question I have then, I think this is a sort of like follow

up criticism that I've seen often.

What about like, when you're going to communities where like,

I'll use Toronto as an example.

People in Toronto are upset about Airbnb and people like renting out

their apartments that way and condos that way, because it's really been a

player in driving up cost of living, like cost of rent in the city.

And I've seen this echoed, like, especially throughout European cities,

like Barcelona, for example I know for sure, like is a city where people are

very frustrated and this isn't just digital nomadism, but like tourism in

general has driven up cost of living.

So do you think like, as digital nomads choosing where like what city

you decide to go to, some cities might have more impact than others?

Because like you say, like in bulk area, there's lots of vacancy.

And like people can actually benefit from you renting the apartment.

Wereas in Barcelona might not be the case because there's,

there's not enough housing.

Brent: It's messy.

Erin: It's messy.

Brent: I, I mean, I knowledge, you know, cause I've heard these horror stories

too, and I've seen them and places that used to be, you know, old towns that

used to be lived in by local people.

Now they're all Airbnbs.

It, it is messy, but I think, you know, and I do think it's important

we to try to seek out individual owners and not like conglomerates

in the places we've traveled to.

I mean, I guess all I can say is, is that it's messy, but it

is ultimately there is hopefully money being injected into the local

economy, which is good for everybody.

Michael: Well, and we were talking about Venice earlier

and how Venice has been overrun.

And I, I do think we personally both seek out and, and now try and write about

the out-of-the-way, places that, that people are not necessarily going to.

Because the fact of the matter is, you know, there are, what is it, 8

billion people on this planet now.

And a lot of them are going to want to travel.

So this problem is with us, you know, digital nomads are a drop in the

bucket compared to, you know, the vast majority of people traveling.

We do need to be aware and we do need to talk about them.

Brent: In a way we're early adopters, adapters too.

In that I think nomads are more likely to go to places where people haven't

gone before, and then we can call attention to these places in a good

way and bring in tourist dollars.

Um, you know, it's an ecosystem.

I think that's a healthy part of the ecosystem.

You know that when things do get, do get too bad in Barcelona, well,

maybe you can go to this other lesser known place in Spain or this

lesser known country or someplace in Africa, someplace in Eastern Europe.

Erin: Even to follow up, like on my own point, I do think that placing

blame on individuals isn't always fair because in situations like this,

like in Toronto, for example, much of the blame is on the local government.

Not so much like individuals who are deciding to rent out and Airbnb.

It's not fair to place blame on them when, in reality, the government should be

intervening when it comes to housing and when housing is reaching a breaking point.

So yeah, just wanted to bring it up, cuz I that's a really common

argument that I see people making.

So we've.

Plenty on Alpaca My Bags about how, you know, most travelers have privilege,

but that doesn't mean that we can't find, um, ways to do good when we're

traveling or living as digital nomads.

So you've talked a little bit about it so far, but I was hoping you could give

some concrete ideas for how nomads can make sure that they're contributing

positively to the communities that they're living in when they're abroad.

Michael: Well, I think we all have lenses that we look at the world through for us.

We're a gay couple.

So often when we go to a country, we're sort of thinking, first of

all, safety issues, you know, for some of the places we go, it's like,

I wanna do my research and know, how gay-friendly is this country?

Am I going to be safe here?

What do I need to know?

But then beyond that, I also want to know, I don't care just

about how I'm being treated.

It's how do they treat the local LGBTQ community?

And if I do decide to go there, we decided to go there like Turkey.

It's like, okay, now that I'm here, because that is my one of the lenses.

It's not the only lense I look at the world through, but it's one of the lenses.

It's like, okay, let's do some research.

Is there a local gay group here?

LGBTQ group that I can get to know.

Um, if there is, what can I do to support them?

Oh, in Istanbul, pride is illegal.

You can't, you know, you can't have a, a group of gay people gathering to

protest a government or to, you know, celebrate or talk about being gay.

Well, I can go to pride even though they're they went

ahead and had it illegally.

I can go there and participate.

And then as a writer, I can write about my experience there.

So that is one of the things that, that we do.

That's one of the ways we do it.

And I think everybody who travels has their, their thing.

You know, maybe you as a woman, you know, you look at a place and

think, you know, how safe is it for a female solo traveler or you know,

what is sexism like in this country?

Um, you can be aware of that and you can, you can focus on

that and help improve that.

Brent: We're big proponents of, uh, co-living.

Which is the concept is, you know, small, personal space and big public space.

And the idea is to build community.

Um, and there are a lot of co-living facilities where the idea is you

join a community of nomads and the best co-living facilities are

integrated into the local community.

There are people that work there and they also sort of reach out to the

local community and that's been the most positive experience for us that there

are programs where we benefit from them.

And they benefit from us.

And it's an exchange.

It's a meeting of minds, exchanging ideas, and that's been really positive for us.

I mean, that's literally, for me, for us, that's like the point of travel, you

know, I want to engage with the people.

I, I like to see the sites, but more than anything, I wanna see the culture.

And so it, it, in, in the best of all possible worlds, it has

been a real positive sort of meeting of minds, a connection.

And we learn from them.

They learn from us.

Michael: Well, one of the beautiful things about being a Slowmad is, and, and

this goes back to Paris's article about.

Becoming part of the community or caring is when you live in a place for three

months and you are out shopping and buying your coffee and, and doing all

the different things, you can't help, but meet local people and sort of get

involved and know them a little bit.

Uh, in Istanbul, we live next door to this bakery called as Molly bakery.

If you're ever in Istanbul, look up as Molly bakery and go there.

And I got to know, uh, uh, Raul, the man who ran it.

And learned how they barely survived COVID and I got, I met his, he sat me

down one day and we had tea together.

He didn't speak English.

I didn't speak Turkish.

We used Google translate to have this conversation and I met his kids and,

um, I worked with a local friend to get a try and get a tutor so his son could,

you know, learn to speak English better.

Erin: The fact that when you're a digital nomad, you're spending longer

in a place like that is conducive to building genuine relationships with local

people in a way that you just cannot if you're in a city for like four days.

You just like brought back a memory to being in Cuba.

I spent a couple days in Trinidad and I met this guy there, like in the

street, literally my friend and I were just walking down the street and we

stopped into this guy's bar and we had a drink there and he didn't speak any

English and we spoke horrible Spanish.

We could barely communicate with this guy, but somehow, like we spent the

whole night there and he said, come to my house tomorrow morning for breakfast.

And we went and he showed us his home.

He cooked for us.

And then he took us on a hike and we like went to this waterfall and we

spent a full two days with him and we could not communicate with him, like

barely at all, but it's still one of the fondest memories I have of being in Cuba.

And I just felt like a warmth hanging out with this guy that,

you know, was really special.

It was a really special experience.

Brent: Yeah, that's the thing that has surprised me most about our travels

that I guess I expected, I don't know what I expected, but people have

turned out to be so warm and open and generous, especially at least if

you get outside the tourist areas, people are so hungry for connection.

Michael is a historical novelist in, in one of his novels, which is set,

you know, in 5,000 BC, um, there are different sort of tribes in this area.

And it's the, um, merchants, what do you call 'em the traders, the traders

that, that move between the cities and they sort of bring information and I, in

the best of all possible worlds, I feel like nomading is a little bit like that.

We're the, the bloodstream of the world that we travel these different communities

and we touch them and they touch us.

And then we move on and we can say to other people, whether in person or

online, we can explain what touched us, what moved us, what, what we saw.

I think that's a, a beautiful thing if you're doing it right.

You know, from my point of view that it's a net positive.

The world needs more connection, not less connection.

We need to understand each other.

We need to be thoughtful and listen to each other.

For me, that's what Noma is.

Michael: I think digital nomads are able to do that better than,

you know, a regular tourist.

Erin: Yeah.

Yeah.

I can even say, like, I haven't been a digital nomad, like proper, but

I have done very long stretches of travel where like I'm traveling for

like up to nine months at a time.

And.

I've talked with friends about this because I have friends who say to me, "oh,

like I would really love to experience that like traveling long term, rather than

doing like a two week jont to a country".

And I always say, like, the thing that I find is really special about

long term travel is that you aren't governed by a schedule in the same way.

When my partner and I were traveling through India, we would

just wake up every day and think like, what do we wanna do today?

Do we wanna stay in this city another day?

Do we wanna go somewhere else?

Do we wanna sit in this cafe and chat with these people all day long?

You just have a sort of freedom that doesn't exist when you have like a

defined period of time to be in a place.

It's really amazing.

I hope that's something, everyone like experiences at some point in their life.

Brent: There's also this weird phenomenon, I guess I thought the first time you

encounter a place or a person it's unfamiliar and it's strange the second

time you encounter it, it is familiar because you've been here once before.

And then the third time, it almost feels like home.

You know, it only takes three encounters with a person to feel

they suddenly, they're a friend.

The first time you meet a, a person for dinner.

The third time they're a friend.

And the third time you, we walk around a community, it starts to feel like home.

And by, at the end of the second week, Then it's like, oh, this is our, and

now the process is sort of Hasan because we've done it so many times, but within

two or three weeks, you know, Michael, Michael does our shopping and he'll

go to the, the fruit and veg person.

And the first time, you know, "are they a tourist?", whatever.

Second time they're familiar.

Third time Michael has got a best friend and they're, they're volunteering the

best produce and throwing in, you know, free fruit that we've never tried before.

And it's just, people are so hungry for connection.

And I think, honestly, I think this is even more true.

I think America has real problems with community.

But outside of America, I think people are way more eager to engage because

communities are healthier a lot, even if they're, they may be financially

poor, but they, they feel so much healthier to me because people are more

likely to engage on a personal level.

You know, they're not, they're not all based on cars and automobiles.

They're much more pedestrian.

Erin: Well there's people are, um, collectively minded I find.

Brent: Yes, yes.

Erin: In a way that like is not the case in America, from my

experience, at least absolutely true.

So, to wrap up.

Do you ever feel homesick?

Like do you ever think we would like to go back to Seattle and then I wanna

ask you about your thoughts on a point I brought about, brought up about

Nomadic Matt in the previous season.

I'll just recap it.

Um, so last season I brought up in an intro to one of the episodes that

Nomadic Matt, who has a whole site built around his nomadic lifestyle, announced

that he had decided to settle down.

Um, he was really feeling that he was ready to have a home base and a routine.

I know you had some thoughts on this, um, because we chatted about it in an email.

So share with us your thoughts and also like, do you ever feel homesick?

Do you ever think, like we wanna go back to that home life again?

What do you think the future will look like for you as digital nomads?

Michael: Well, to answer the, the first part about Nomadic Matt settling down

and, and you know, our, our view of that.

I think our age comes into play here because you know, Nomad

Matt, he is in his thirties.

I think he's in his thirties.

He'd been traveling, you know, most of his twenties, we have friends who we met

when they were in their twenties and now they're coming into the thirties and you

go through different stages in life and what you haven't had for a long time.

You want, so I totally understand how Nomadic Matt is, probably,

probably reached a point where he's like, oh, I want some stability.

And you know, I want to have a house and I want, I want to do those things.

Well, for me, I had 30 years of stability in Seattle.

I've I've had all the stability I want for the foreseeable future.

I want to be able to go and, and have the world be changeable and seeing

all these different things and having all of these different experiences.

And I think that's a function of the fact that I got to do that

other part of my life already.

And I, you know, I've a lot of people wanna settle down and meet somebody,

you know, I've got my husband and been together for a long time.

So that's how I feel about this issue is that I'm, I'm happy where I'm at now be

probably because I've done those things.

Brent: People ask us, when are you guys gonna stop?

And frequently I will say death.

You know, that's, that's when I'm gonna stop.

I mean, I have a home.

I know it sounds silly.

It sounds frustrating, but I'm not kidding when I within a

week, we feel at home in places.

Yeah.

it really does feel like our home.

And now our home is wherever we're together and wherever we're with friends.

And we have so many great friends all around the world, both local people

and nomad people that that is our home.

And that is our community.

That is our, our community.

And it feels very real to me, frankly, it feels much more real than

our quote home and our community.

Back when we lived in Seattle, it feels much healthier and much more grounded.

I know I, I said this a lot.

I feel more rooted and grounded now than I, when we lived in Seattle,

because living in America, it's so easy to feel disconnected and overwhelmed

and stressed and all of that.

Everybody's so busy.

Yeah.

Every everybody's so busy and, and that said, we do have a lot of lovely

friends and family back in Seattle.

And we were just visiting last week, two weeks ago.

And I mean, on one hand being away for much of the year makes

us appreciate those friends.

I mean, the friendships that have lasted are really the core friendships.

And, and so I think we appreciate them more.

We try to stay in touch, but it's hard, you know, and I, you know,

we've reasoned to tan once or twice a year and sort of expect them to throw

everything aside so they can make time for us to feel bad about that.

But, you know, life is choices, you know, you open one door and you have to

close another door, but I'd -- homesick?

No.

Because I I'm so used to this life now.

And I so love it.

That I don't ever feel homesick.

I wish I could have everything, you know, like like every

human being ever I want it all.

But you can't have it all.

So I'll take as much as I can possibly get.

Michael: And not to end on a depressing note, but it's been hard to be homesick

for America over the past five years.

I mean, given everything that's, that's gone on in the country and how divisive

its felt and, and frankly, every time we go back, the, the aspects that we don't

like, the commercialism and the living in a car everywhere, you have to go in a car.

that makes it hard to be homesick.

You get back there and you experience that.

And all you can think is I want to get back to my real life.

I want to, I wanna get back to where I don't have to deal with these things.

I, I think our values fit in with much of the rest of the world.

Yeah.

Better than they did in America.

So it's hard to be homesick for that.

Brent: I don't think we have any, I don't wanna say we're

like these great wise gurus.

I don't wanna, like, we're not like invoking all these wisdom, but I,

but I do think we can return home and we have a perspective and we can

say to our people in America, Wow.

Life here is really fast paced and really materialistic.

And we find that, you know, personally, I find that off putting

and they can like hear that.

And maybe, you know, maybe that changes them a little, you know, because a lot

of people have looked at our life and said, oh, I'd really like to do that.

And I, that again, that feels like a net positive that maybe people

are questioning some of that consumerism, that American consumerism.

Um, and, and that can be a function we can play.

Erin: And it's not unusual.

What you're saying.

I have met so many Americans that mirror, what you're saying that

feel the same way about America.

Especially like when I traveled through Asia right after Trump was elected,

like so many Americans said to me that they felt like they couldn't

feel connected to America in the same way anymore, because it, it went

against like, their value system.

And so I don't think it's unusual that you feel that way and I've felt that way too.

Even about like my own communities here in Canada when I travel.

Sometimes I think I sometimes feel like I fit in, in better fit in, better in

outside communities than I do at home.

And I think like, That's something that everyone probably

experiences when they travel well.

Michael: Brent has this wonderful metaphor that he's written about, uh, digital

nomads being the island of misfit toys.

People who leave their country, you know, long term and settle in other places often

partly left because they didn't fit in.

And so they, they go abroad and they meet other people that are like them.

And all of a sudden they have this community of other misfit toys that,

that all like, oh yeah, I didn't like that about America either.

I didn't know other people felt that way.

Boom.

You know, we're now friends.

Brent: Yeah.

But at the same time, you know, leaving your country and seeing your country

with the perspective of an outsider, you definitely see the things you don't like,

but I've also seen things that I do.

Like, you know, and there are things about America, you know, the willingness

to sort of question everything.

You know, everything's up for question in America and the innovation

and the optimism, and there's a, there is a good part of America.

Leaving America sort of in disgust sort of forced me sort

of reassess the whole country.

And it hasn't all been, I think America has real problems, but there are things

that I really like about America.

And I think America can play a really important role in the world.

You know, it needs to find that it needs to rediscover that, that

sense of openness and, and beauty.

We're sort of people without a, a country, I guess, you know, we don't really fit

in, in the countries where we live.

We would never presume to think, you know, we're Spanish now,

but we're also not American.

I don't really feel like an American anymore.

And so we're citizens of the world, but that sounds a little trite.

There, there is a sense of

-- Michael: We're nomads.

Yeah.

Brent: Yeah.

We're nomads.

Erin: Well, Brent and Michael.

Thank you so much.

It's been so lovely to chat with you.

And I feel so at home chatting with you too, because we've, we've

discussed things online, like now for, I think like the past year or so.

Um, yeah, it's been such a pleasure to like actually see you and,

and talk with you in person.

So thank you for coming on the show.

Brent: Thank you.

Thank you for having us.

We love your sort of thoughtful vibe.

Your questions are awesome.

Erin: Ah, thank you.

Brent: So Michael and I publish a newsletter on Substack called

"Brent and Michael Are Going Places" which, uh, describes our life as

digital nomans and also gives sort of travel tips and our perspectives.

The things that we are talking about today, we write articles about that.

Michael: It has lots of pictures since I love taking pictures of where we travel.

Brent: And we're also on social media.

We're on Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, but mostly if you want,

uh, if you want most access, it's probably best to subscribe to us via

the newsletter, Brent and Michael.

Michael: And most of the newsletter is free.

So you get most of what we have to say for, for, you know, no charge whatsoever.

Erin: Thanks for listening to the show.

If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to share it with a fellow traveler.

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Alpaca My Bags is written and hosted by me, Erin Hynes, and it's

produced and edited by Kattie Laur.

in Canada's Toronto area.

If you wanna reach out to us, check the show notes for all the info you need.

I'll see you in two weeks, but in the meantime, I hope you get

Alpaca your bags safely and soon.