SEAI 180 Degrees Season 4 Episode 1

The Broadcaster, Liz Bonnin

Jim Scheer 00:05

Hi, I'm Jim Scheer, host of 180 degrees, a podcast brought to you by the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. In this series, I talk to Climate Leaders about how they first connected to the urgent need for climate action. We go back to their roots and talk about their journeys, discover what drives them, and what keeps them motivated. We also explore the essential ingredients required for leadership on climate action here in Ireland, and how we might impact internationally. Nothing short of a societal movement is now needed to ensure a livable planet for our children and future generations. Today I'm joined by science and wildlife broadcaster of all things natural world Lis Bonnin and Liz was born in Paris before moving to Ireland when she was nine years old. After studying biochemistry at Trinity College, Dublin, she was drawn into the showbiz career presenting UK Breakfast Television and top of the pops in the early 2000s. She then decided to return to her true passion Life Sciences completing a master's in wildlife biology at the Zoological Society of London, and the Royal Veterinary College, combining both her passion for science and wildlife and her natural ability to present Liz continues to communicate science and natural history on television. And through her recent podcast, 'what planet are we on?' Liz is passionate about reawakening the public's curiosity about the world around them. Among other things, we talk about the beauty and power of nature, and the need for us to reconnect to it as a species currently living in ways that are incompatible with our own survival. Liz Bonnin, you're so welcome.

Liz Bonnin 01:30

Thank you for having me, Jim.

Jim Scheer 01:32

I guess we want to start by something we've been exploring with all of our guests on this series in the podcast and to ask you to cast your mind back to a moment or a time when you first made connection with the natural world.

Liz Bonnin 01:46

If I have to think about it, without knowing, when I was very young, I was lucky enough to be growing up in the mountains north of Nice in the south of France before I moved to Ireland to get my fabulous education. And my sister and I were always immersed in nature with our two dogs having adventures, spending hours upon hours, you know, just out there, exploring the bugs and the snakes and the hedgehogs and the trees. And I think without knowing nature worked its magic on me back then. But also, there was something in me that was almost borderline obsessed with wanting to understand how all these living things work. So I would be staring at these little birds, and fascinated by these tiny, beautiful, perfect species, and their tiny, you know, eyeballs moving around the sockets and imagining how their tiny hearts were beating and how everything worked. So I think every child is born with an inherent curiosity about the world around them. And slowly but surely, sometimes life tends to knock that a little bit out of you, and starts teaching you about what you should be prioritizing. And sometimes we can lose what is essentially, I think the most important thing about what it means to be human on this planet, is to is to remain connected to the natural world in some way. So because I had that from a very young age, and sort of a very intense time, you know, sort of like a lot of time in nature that served its purpose. And then also my family, well they're from all over the planet. But I was really, really fortunate that when I moved to cold grey, rainy, wonderful Ireland from the south of France, I was still visiting my parents' family in the Caribbean and swimming all the time and snorkeling and discovering coral reefs and, and again, that maintained my passion, my love, my obsession with the natural world.

Jim Scheer 03:37

I think it is really interesting that you saw that about yourself at a young age. And it sounds like it was nurtured in you then. And I guess then when you came to Ireland, how did that continue after that experience in France?

Liz Bonnin 03:48

Well, it continued with my travels, I suppose where, you know, my grandmother had real wanderlust, and she always used to take us traveling on adventures. So it was kind of nurtured by particularly my grandmother, and she happened to live in Martinique as well, which is, you know, just a beautiful island in the Caribbean. My mom comes from Trinidad and there are swamps and rainforests. And so all of that just did its job, nature nurtured me like the planet nurtured me and made me who I am and I I don't know what other sequence of events lead to a person just staying in love with the planet like I did. Maybe then studying science, which was helping me to understand it and to ask even more questions, you know, help to nurture that to in fact it's not a maybe it's certainly sometimes I don't really think fully about you know, how I ended up where I've ended up but surely that was it as well. And in Trinity you study you did two years of all the natural sciences. So I studied biology as in zoology, and microbiology and genetics, all the while knowing that I was gonna go into biochemistry but you know, zoology really captured my imagination and once I finished biochemistry, I had a long hard think about whether I wanted to continue in that field or whether I wanted to apply what I'd learned to my real passion, which was better understanding the natural world. And you know, at that stage also realizing that it needed our protection. And sort of that's when I kind of went down that avenue. Yeah.

Jim Scheer 05:20

And like the that freedom of being a kid and discovering it in your in your own way with your sister to sort of the formalized approach then in back in Ireland at Trinity, and then, at some point, bringing that training, and perhaps making a decision that you wanted to share this with, with other people and becoming a TV presenter, can you describe how you went from that fascination to studies and then ultimately, being a TV presenter?

Liz Bonnin 05:43

Yeah. So it was a weird sequence of events that when I finished biochemistry, I applied for a PhD in the UK. And then sort of once they started writing back, and we were starting to discuss, you know, when I might start, I remember thinking, Okay, hang on. It's not quite what I want to do. And I need to just take stock and take some time out. And I ended up falling into television in a really random way. And sometimes when I give talks at schools, I use those examples as a whole set of events that led me to combine my first love, which is science, with a newfound passion, which is storytelling. So I fell into TV, and learned from amazing producers that would just say, run with the story. How would you make it? How would you edit it? And I was doing entertainment at the time, but I was like, Oh, my gosh, I have no idea. But it instilled in me this love for the creative process. And so when I'm at schools telling children, sometimes the teachers are a bit like, Oh, I'm not sure whether you're supposed to give them that advice, you know, I am at pains to go to tell them, Don't rush, the whole world tells you you need to know what you're doing. And you need to have, you know, find your path and follow it. And yes, work hard. But it's only because I was a bit of a drifter in my 20s that I ended up getting these opportunities presenting and one thing led to another and I was in London presenting and I was doing junkets around the world having the time of my life, and I was young, and I thought this is the time to be doing it. I also need to stress that it's not that I'm the kind of person that has this like well thought out plan, where I thought, well, this is the time I'm going to do this, then I'm going to, I was just sort of, I was drifting and it could have gone pear shaped. Who knows. But what it did was it Yeah, combine my love of science with this newfound love for storytelling. And that's when it started to take shape. I'd had my fun. I was really missing academia, I knew that I wanted to study zoology, what animal biology conservation. But then in the back of my head as I started the Masters, I was like, Oh, what if I could tell the stories on television now that I understand how to make the stories, and it's a really enjoyable process. And that's how I combined everything by the end of my masters. And also being at the right place at the right time. I found myself an agent. And the BBC were just putting together this brand new science magazine show called Bang Goes the Theory and they were auditioning, and I just happened to have just finished my masters final exams, you know, so again, the timing is sometimes well, I don't know, you know, they say they're always doors opening, you just have to be kind of aware of them and go for them. No, don't close yourself off. So maybe it's a combination of the timing of a master's finishing and then jumping at that opportunity when it came.

Jim Scheer 08:23

So science and science communication is something that seems very important to you. And I think it's something that you're clearly very good at. And you talked about storytelling and the importance of storytelling. Could you say a little bit more about that. And why you think it's important for people to connect to science.

Liz Bonnin 08:38

One thing I've learned after the fact is that storytelling is everything, if we're going to solve our environmental crises. We are disconnected and the first thing is to reconnect to nature and to each other, and to share our stories. We're social species, we're social creatures. It's what we're all about. And it's through sharing our stories. And actually behavioral science kind of attest to this, that we can, it's almost like show and tell, you know, you tell somebody about your experience, they can relate to that. And so Oh, they're doing that, and that seems to be working. And then that's how change happens more effectively than preaching or wagging the finger. So I know that kind of more now than ever. But when I started working with the BBC, making this series Bang Goes the Theory, we had this most incredible, what's called an editor who was basically our boss, but he was really he really mindfully chose the presenters and his team. And he would put someone like me with a physicist, and then a director who had never directed science before. And the three of us would just like, chat for hours about how we were going to tackle a subject like stem cell research or something, you know, and it was a wonderful way of striking the balance between what is inherently complex, and it's not that science is complicated. It's that the world is beautifully complex. And so to explain that to a family audience, this was a show that was going out at like, I think it was 730, you have to dig really deep into the complexities in order to convey it in a way that's understandable to a layperson. And that was the most extraordinary training ground that has set me right, going forward. So I learned from the best I would say, and, you know, as the style of storytelling sort of evolves into do we go hard hitting, do we just inspire? Do we shy away from the cold, hard truths? Do we, you know, I've tried, I've sort of experienced different styles of storytellin through the last sort of 13/14 years, I've worked in television and it's been wonderful, and it keeps on evolving. And now we're facing, you know, pretty much the most sort of serious crises that we've ever faced in human history. And so all of that experience tends to drive you even further to better understand how to get across to those who won't watch a documentary about climate change, how to get through to them in a way that isn't preachy, but to sort of remind them of what I have been privileged enough to just sort of have been dumped in, immersed in. So I don't want to sound arrogant, but because I spend so much time in the in the middle of nature, I've been changed, like, I have a connection with the planet that is so powerful, that as I see what we continue to be doing, it's a difficult experience and life path to navigate. But what it does do as well is put a fire stoke a fire in my belly, to constantly challenge myself about how best I can communicate to a wide range of people, and how best I can help us all to remember what is truly important. And that's how I see my role as a communicator.

Jim Scheer 11:44

Yeah I think when a lot of us watch you presenting, I think that fascination that you've talked about having as a kid, I think it's really obvious in what you're doing, or at least there's a way of being about you that you being fascinated has the viewer been fascinated? And in terms of the storytelling? Can you think of any specific examples of stories that have been told by you or others that have really led to and maybe inspired action at the end of it?

Liz Bonnin 12:10

Oh, well, I mean, I'm not going to boast that my program then directly led to X, Y, or Z. But I think what I got from responses, you know, over the years, has been a really wonderful mixed bag. So I mean, what comes to mind are two sort of more natural history geared programs like Operation Snow Tiger, which was looking at the Amur tigers in the Russian Far East, and then another series called Galapagos, which was, oh my gosh, like the most extraordinary experience for me, selfishly without it being my job, being on this incredible research vessel, joining all the top scientists who are researching, you know, from the top to the top of volcano to the depths of the oceans, you know, how best to protect this sort of mini planet, this microcosm where everything is pretty much as wild as exists on the planet, there's no such thing as really wild anymore. But the Galapagos is a really precious and special place in that regard. And the response I got from both is that there is definitely absolutely room for just communicating the absolute miracle, the improbable beauty and extraordinary species, all of it, the planet is insanely beautiful. And we are so lucky to be here. And so you'll get responses about with, you know, with regards to those programs that really drive home, how it touches people, because it it kind of harks to who we are really, that we are nature, we're not apart from it, we're not better than it, it's not ours to exploit and use, you know, at our will, it is something we're intimately inextricably connected to. And I think those programs, you know, have done really well as a result, and I'm really pleased about that. But then, of course, I've made programs like Drowning in Plastic and Meat a threat to our planet where those documentaries are testament to all of us as natural history and science communicators, seeing the impact of the modern world, you know, making the planet bow in ways, you know, like never before. So, I could be making a program about, you know, migrations, but you're speaking to the scientists off camera, and they're saying, well, that species is on its way out. It's too late for that species. We don't know what we're going to do about that habitat is completely transformed from a forest to the grasslands because of climate change. And so obviously, it was probably more apparent to people like us because we were on the ground with the scientists of the last few decades. You know, and beyond before that David Attenborough has seen this, you know, for for many decades. And it's kind of drove the BBC to make a decision to put out documentaries that really face the truth of the root cause of all of this, but it remains a challenge about how to communicate it and to whom because I will get people on social media telling me I just, I can't watch another one of those Drowning in Plastics, please don't make another program that talks about climate change. And I'm all for leaning into it, you have to lean into the discomfort. But if some people can't at the moment, then how do we reach them? And so yeah, it's a continuing challenge to figure out what to make and where, and how to approach the challenge that is making everybody wake up before it's too late.

Jim Scheer 15:25

Yeah, there's just a lot of emotion in that isn't there and like to hear you talk about, you have been to all these amazing places, like, you know, the deserts in Australia, and Greenland, and you've been in Kenya with the elephants and a million other places, the Irish countryside and all those places, I really get your connection to the beauty of that, and the wonder, and then I'm also hearing, sort of a level of frustration with being exposed to the plastic and the birds and that seeing all of that firsthand, and you're starting to touch on how difficult that is for, for people to see. How do you think we, we reconcile those things and, and by showing the beauty and then the, the state that it's in and the pressure that it's under? And how do we stay? I guess motivated to act and, and head in the direction we need to go?

Liz Bonnin 16:11

That's the million dollar question, isn't it, it is a difficult challenge to navigate. Despite us all on this planet being so ridiculously closely related, we are very different. And some of us are very different to to others. And so, to unravel that, to figure out how to be able to get us all as one global species to really come together to sort of get over the obstacle, that is just how scary the situation is now at our hands. So you could think you could suggest, well, look, we did it. So get over yourself, you know, we need to face it. But you know what the world is a very complicated, strange place. That is the result of many decades of all sorts of weird systemic issues that I didn't think as a biologist, I'd have to sort of lean into as well, and better understand. So I found myself especially after making drowning in plastic and Meat a threat to our planet, I found myself reading books like donut economics, and, you know, books on the Green New Deal, and having to inform myself on politics and economics, which you know, I've a science brain, my brain cannot understand money and finances. And maybe there's a reason for that, I find the whole thing a little bit off also, you know, the economy and, and shares and bonds are all very incredibly fabricated. You know, anyway, all this to say that we cannot solve our existential environmental crises without looking at the whole system. And so to answer your question, it is multi-layered. And the challenge now is to sort of encourage everybody to just better understand how we got to be here, and to take responsibility for it. And it takes a will. A really interesting scientist on one of the panels I was listening to recently was talking about how the antidote to despair is action. A lot of this is about, again, telling each other our stories and how what we're doing in life and how we feel we can make a difference to inspire others to act that does dilute some of the anxiety and eco anxiety that I think a lot of us are feeling we've been through two horrendous years, you know, it's been a really hard time. But again, all of this is our making. And I think we just need to all hold hands together in a way and just be brave and lean into feelings that historically have been sort of dubbed as negative, you got to be happy all the time. You can't be depressed, you can't feel low, you can't feel anxiety, that tide is turning a little, which I think is really heartening. I'm learning especially in my career, I've really struggled with some of the things I've seen in some of the things I'm reporting on and going to COP26, in Glasgow, and seeing the absolute circus that it was and how nothing was done, and how all of my country, your country, we're all investing again, in fossil fuels in some way or the other. So there's a lot to kind of deal with, I didn't sleep for a long time. So I'm learning to give my so-called negative feelings a hug and accept that it's my body doing what it's supposed to do telling me that something isn't quite right, and how can I work through them? And I always say this thing I've said it before, but I'll say it again, the leaning into the discomfort of all of this is a crucial part of how we're going to come through it.

Jim Scheer 19:21

I think it's a really rich answer. You know, I think that totally understand the difficulty sometimes in facing the facts. And you know, you read the next article or the next report on the IPCC that comes out from them or you know, what's happening with the melting of the glaciers and all of these things and there's the potential for us to feel helpless and to get stuck in that anxious place and that helpless place and I get that you feel that too. Could you say a little bit more about how you deal with those times? What do you do in those moments I get the you listen to start with.

Liz Bonnin 19:53

My sister was running a meditation center in New Zealand. I thought it was a bit extreme, but I'd visit her from London after you know working loads and arriving like a complete heap. And she lives in this beautiful valley in the Coromandel running this meditation center. And I used to feel the incredibly uncomfortable power of people who were just meditating together and feel very out of it. And, but I was just visiting her. So the first time I did when she was there, I remember just sort of tapping out of it. And the second time, I kind of joined one of the women's retreat on the weekend, third time I was all in, because I learned how to use that as a really effective tool to heal and to process. And it's now gotten to the point where it feels like a warm blanket around me. So meditation is important. Now I'm not gonna lie, I haven't meditated for quite a while I go through weeks where I don't, and then I can I feel it. Exercise is hugely important. Therapy is hugely important. It's something that I now do as a as a matter of course, as part of, you know, part of my life. And now, it seems so absurd that we don't do this as a regular activity, I suppose you could call it it's not easy sometimes you have to, again, get used to the discomfort. It's fabulous what I'm doing at the moment with this incredible woman about about, I'm very in my head, and I want to because I'm really get up because I've just come back from Greenland and the place is a mess and the ice is gone. And she goes Stop, stop, stop, stop, stop how it was it feel like in your body? Where can you feel it now just sit with that. And for ages, you're just sitting there and you're thinking this is a waste of my money, like what am I doing, but actually, you can feel it dissipate. And so for me, you know it has to be as important as exercising your muscles, you need to exercise your spirit process your thoughts. It's a really important part of life, especially now when things are quite difficult to face. So those are kind of, you know, meditation, exercise, therapy, and good food and a nice glass of wine. You know, they're my sort of five go twos, and friends and family, you know, connecting is hugely important.

Jim Scheer 21:59

Yes, so many great suggestions there. In terms of practical steps. You did 20 episodes, I think of your own podcast called What planet Are we on? The podcast is about climate change, and how we live on the planet? And what we can do about it. And all episodes are highly recommended. What struck me about it was you kicked off episode one with Sir David Attenborough. And then after that, you spoke to musicians, actors, entrepreneurs, conservationists, lawyers, top UN officials, economists, like a cast of humans with really diverse backgrounds. Was there any common threads that stood out to you from those conversations you know?

Liz Bonnin 22:36

Yeah, I mean, there were, I'm having a bit of a flash through of certain contributors. And I think what it boiled down to even though this was a podcast about climate change, it boiled down to how we live on this planet, the need to take a long, hard look about a system that is clearly not suiting the 21st century, and that it has to start with each and every one of us in small ways. But then that it has to build to environmental law and to the economy to the sort of more hard hitting stuff, but that we all have a role to play with it. So even though at times, it was quite, you know, hard hitting, I suppose you could say. I found each episode incredibly inspiring, because this is gonna sound a little bit arrogant, but I felt like by the end of the series, you kind of knew what needed to be done. If you had any doubt about sort of what it just feels all too big. And it's not my realm, and I'm only trying to put food on the table. I mean, especially with this crisis that we're having, you know, where most of us can't, can't pay our energy bills in the UK at the moment, you know, all of there's a lot going on. But I felt that through all these different people from all walks of life, you got like, even handy tips about how you could play a role in the change that's needed for the planet to just be able to thrive so we can thrive. And so I left, I finished the series thinking okay, okay, that's it in a nutshell, that's kind of what we need to do. All the solutions are there. But we need the will. And, you know, we need to be able to find a way to dismantle. I never thought I'd use this language as a biologist Jim, right. But this is, you know, where it boils down to we need to dismantle a system that doesn't serve the well being of society. It's so clear to me now, I can't believe we've let it go on for so long. And all of that's connected to, you know, climate change and biodiversity loss is only a symptom of the problem. It's a signpost, you know, to solve it, we've got to solve the problem at the core, we can't keep on band-aiding, you know, the cracks, we've got to just get rid of the infection from the bottom. And I'm, I'm finding my way post podcast, finding my way through how to go about that how to play a part as a communicator, but also just as a citizen, you know, as a human, which is why I'm really keen to listen to your podcast series. Once it's out I'm really looking for because you sound like you have some amazing guests that are sort of another beautiful cross section of all the aspects of humanity, which is again going to contribute, you know, to how, you know, to, towards finding a way out of this, you know?

Jim Scheer 25:07

Yeah 100% And far from being arrogant, I think you've hit on a huge finding there in a way like, you know, you talk to a wide range of people, and you got yourself a new view of a way forward and, and a pathway to action. And I heard musician Brian Eno talking about, you know, his contribution and how he approaches that as an artist. And, you know, you heard Kate Raworth is talking about the donut economics models.

Liz Bonnin 25:31

I'm obsessed with Kate, every single word that comes out of her mouth is perfection. It's so on point. It's so simple. It's so true. And harks back to Yeah, who we really are. I just Yeah, I think she's wonderful.

Jim Scheer 25:43

What strikes you about her message?

Liz Bonnin 25:45

I mean, it's so kind of obvious. It's how is it that we have been living in this sort of linear degenerative system that just extracts all this stuff for our use out of this finite stunning system that just nurtures us with so much, we just keep on taking it, taking it to make money and profit. I mean, she, you know, she confirmed the whole nonsense, the miss that is GDP that was devised by an American at the time for the Bank of America, he was saying, Look, you want me to give you a measure of how much a country is selling and buying and sort of put it on a rank table with all the other countries. But please be careful, this is not a rank of success in the country, because it doesn't take into account how many resources you're taking out of the country, and at what cost etc. So don't use it. Of course, what did we do? We decided to use it as a global measure of a country's success. And the way she highlights that is so clear, it's like, Oh, my God, how do we manage to do this? Like, why do we, you know, encourage it, and why do we still? Do you know, what really bugs me is people who still use that language, they still oh GDP and growth? And I'm like, How have we not woken up to this? How are we still using that rhetoric? Yeah, she really made an impression on me. And can I also mention Client Earth, I didn't know very much about environmental law. And beneath the radar, this is not even in the press, there are so many environmental cases being one through environmental charities, like Client Earth, with with citizens playing a role in the cases, there was a really big case here of a young girl who died of an asthma attack lived in a very polluted area of the UK, her mother approached, you know, the legal organizations that helped her to win the case, or a lot of these, that one was in the papers, but there are so many others against, you know, coal development funding and sort of new big sites, new big exploration, big mines in Europe that have been closed down. So that's something else that I learned through that podcast that there is a lot going on at the law level, that's going to help us to, to get rid of that major obstacle. That is clear. You know, that's what remains of how we need to solve these problems, these environmental crises. So that excites me a lot. And I, I work with Client Earth now, because I just think they're amazing.

Jim Scheer 28:02

Yeah, I think that that's very hopeful when you hear about systems that maybe most people feel a bit disconnected from the legal system itself, or the economic system. And when you hear that there are people tackling that and working to change that system, within which most of us live and breathe. And let's talk a little bit about media. And because you're, you're in it, and you're part of it, and you're producing a lot of media, different forms and how would you rate media and how they cover the climate crisis and the biodiversity crisis right now? And do you see anything that that's missing, that that could be added to make a difference?

Liz Bonnin 28:43

I mean, we're just smiling at each other here. Because you know, that it's, it's not, we're not, I think it's an exciting time, because there are many more outlets where we can just be unapologetic about the truth of the matter, including this podcast. So there are many more ways to communicate and and even on social media, which can be a bit of a cesspit, you know, there, I actually get some, because of who I follow, I get the truth of the matter in ways that news outlets are not conveying. I mean, it's embarrassingly late into my young life, if that makes sense, where I realized that newspapers were affiliated to political parties, and I remember in sort of feeling like an eejit go saying to a group of friends, what do you mean, that's a left paper or right paper, which again, I'm allergic to kind of labeling. And it's like, well, that's how it works. So for me, if we're going to kind of evolve our societal systems or economic model, we sort of need to evolve this manipulation of the press and all of this very unsavory stuff that's going on because that's part of the problem. We're not communicating to enough people in any one country, the truth of the matter, and it's all absurdly twisted and crafted into all of these rhetorics that are so dangerous and have created the world we live in today in the global north, and how the global south is

Jim Scheer 30:12

It's hard to stick through it

Liz Bonnin 30:13

Oh my god, so that's look, let's not make any bones about it. That's the problem. We are not. We don't have enough outlets that are truthfully telling the state of affairs relying on, you know, one of the only, I suppose solid ways of you know, of obtaining that truth, which is the scientific process. Antonio Guterres, the UN Secretary General recently said there is always room for debate around opinion, that's healthy. But there, but he said there is, but there was never room for debate around facts we need to make lying wrong again, I thought it was a very powerful statement. That really just raises the I mean, it's just so obvious. It's like, how do we get to a point where some of the nonsense that you see in print or debated on programs, and you're like, how are these people allowed to talk? This is so dangerous, like surely we're past that. So that's basically a very long way of answering a question that no, we're not doing enough in the media, are we and we need to, we need to fix the system, I would say in many of the outlets, and then there are many outlets who are reporting bravely, justly, truthfully. But what worries me about the problem with the way the media industry is set up is just how many people are not taken care of with the truth or not told the truth and how that shapes the way they live? And how, ultimately, they're the ones who suffer most And ironically, vote in those very same people who treat them the worst? How did we get here? And again, when I when these words come out of my mouth, it almost sounds like, this isn't like how am I speaking like this? You know, I'm not a conspiracy theorist. But I mean, we have to face the truth, again, the discomfort of like, what we've created, and we need to find a way to heal that and heal ourselves, and come together again and take care of each other. Yeah.

Jim Scheer 32:07

Like, what, what's hopeful what I hear is hopeful in that is the new media, and where we go from a system of like a very few Media Barons, with, you know, political affiliations in the background and limited channels to like, so many channels, and, but then, you know, to sift through that and find the truth can be tricky. So you're kind of asking people in a way to be a little more critical in what they read. And just to ask that first question, who's writing this?

Liz Bonnin 32:34

True. And also, as a communicator, my thought is how do we reach people on a platform that talks about things that might be considered left? Like, how do we make people aware, hey, you've not been taken care of here, like you've not been told the truth. And you might think that what you believe is the truth, but just please, just, let's all come together and have a conversation about this. Because let's take a long, hard look about what your life is like, as a result of the truth that you believe in , you know, truth in inverted commas. Like, how do we get to that conversation? That's still the challenge, because as you say, there are platforms that are, I think, are the way forward. But I think it's, you know, I feel responsible, because I'm a communicator, but sometimes like, again, not to go on about Kate Rayworth , but the community sort of projects that she's holding, and loads of other organizations are doing the same thing are going to help in that regard. First and foremost, it's about just reconnecting with each other and finding common ground. There's a wonderful climate scientist called Katharine Hayhoe that we had on our podcast actually, I just found her on social media. And I thought she was so again, clear and concise, and simple. And sort of the every woman do you know what I mean, it wasn't sort of like a little bit, anybody could understand how she was debunking all the climate change hoax myths. And so we got her on the podcast, and she talks a lot about, you know, the, one of the first steps before you start sort of getting worried about how to get across the point that climate change is real. It's just have a conversation, just connect with this person, find a common ground, you have kids, talk about your kids, you share the same religion, talk about that, you know, you go to the same night school, you know, your learning, just find , reconnect. It's kind of simple, but it is. I think that's because I'm aware that what I'm talking about can sound very depressing. Nothing wrong with that because a lot of it is depressing. But again, all the solutions are at our fingertips. You know, that's what is exciting to me. Nevermind gives me hope you know.

Jim Scheer 34:35

Yeah, you said something I want to come back to and it was about making a post on social media and feeling uncomfortable. You know, sounds like you're going out on the skinny branch on occasion and with a self expression or something and you're worried like, how's it going to land or it's a truth for you. Are people going to get this? I mean, what, what is it about that self expression and being a bit uncomfortable at times.

Liz Bonnin 34:58

I think my role as a communicator holds a bit more responsibility. So sometimes, I think that as long as I refer to a factual accuracy about some of these bigger issues that obviously I communicate about, you know, as my job, then that's okay. I am sometimes guilty as a human of getting a little bit, there's nothing wrong with emotion by the way, we are so devoid of emotion, we need to encourage that more in each other. But sometimes I can get angry or really despair at a farcical situation in politics, for example, where I sometimes wonder, how is this helping? This is just me venting and maybe I should just vent to my friends? Or do I have a responsibility, just call out the nonsense, if it is really as absurd as some of the events that are playing out in this country are. So I still struggle with that. And sometimes as much as discomfort, when I talk about leaning into the discomfort of what we're facing as a species, sometimes discomfort is also telling you, maybe you shouldn't be writing this. You know what I mean? It's also it's a signal, but it could be a signal that maybe Liz, you don't need to post that I'm still finding my way, because sometimes, I am so frustrated that we're just not calling, calling stuff out, that it's time to just go listen, we have no more time to be messing about this is absurd and I'm going to say this is absurd. So yeah, I'm navigating that minefield.

Jim Scheer 36:31

Yeah, that's, that's, that's great to hear you say that. Because really, like, there's, there's, you know, we could all be given off about a, or we could all be censoring all of our, you know, sort of angry thoughts or, or kind of the passion and just putting up the nicey-nice posts and making the world look great. And then you're missing some of the truth, then would be the question, do you know?

Liz Bonnin 36:52

Yeah, that's a really, that's a really good question. Because, you know, I still haven't really figured out Instagram, I tend to put up pictures to inspire people about the planet. And then Twitter is sort of more informative for me. And then, you know, it's more kind of like my job. But the point is, sometimes I'm on Twitter, I just, it's so depressing. And so then I question I might be contributing to that kind of doom scrolling or, and, and I wonder, you know, what my role is in that, should I just keep it light and inspirational? And I think, you know, it's a bit like what we're discussing as program makers at the moment with a few channels that I'm working with, it's how to deal with more of the truth than we're dealing with. But by being inspirational, and for me, the answer is always showing an example of somebody who's fixing something, or on their way to fix something. And through that you're going this is really bad, but they're doing this, they're doing this, why are they doing this? They're doing this because this is really bad. Look what they're doing. And again, it's kind of harks to behavioral science, and hopefully that inspires others to kind of think, why are we not doing this in this country. So again, it's kind of what I might try a little bit harder to do on Twitter, it's to remember to also give a bit of like motivation or inspiration, as opposed to just going this guy is evil, you shouldn't be in power or whatever. I sometimes allude to.

Jim Scheer 38:15

We've seen a massive youth movement over the last number of years around the globe. In Ireland, it's shown up as Friday's for future outside the Dail every Friday for the last, I'm not sure what they're up to now it's it's been a good three years plus, and younger people are really crying out older generations to act and also to start to handle this in, in a more full on front facing way. How do you think we can best respond to the call?

Liz Bonnin 38:41

Yeah, because I gave a talk recently, at a university where a few families brought their children on, maybe they were maybe between eight and eleven. And we were talking about drowning in plastic and then sort of like the bigger sort of picture like we're discussing. And I remember just looking at the kids and going kind of just somebody asked about oh, so the future our young people really get it, don't they? And they're going to really take sort of take up the baton and do well. And I went 'Can I just first of all, from the bottom of my heart, apologize to all the children in this audience on behalf of all of the adults, because this is on us. This is not on you and anyway there's no time to wait for you who will be better leaders by the very nature that you're just much more aware and it is your future. But this is on us and we have to find ways to fix it'. And then you're asking me, Jim, like, what can we do and look first and foremost, reconnect with nature, reconnect to each other. Then make some changes in your life. Like changing your floss, your dental floss to a non plastic one turning down your thermostat turning up your temperature your fridge by one, you know always using reusable cups. It's a super easy one that still like we kind of had a wave of it and now we stopped. All of those things do make a difference, reuse, recycle, repurpose refill in the supermarkets and all of that. Then there's another layer that I always thought, well, after you do your own kind of behavioral changes, there's this big gap then isn't there between us and like the powers that be. But I think what's really important and not so difficult to do is to change your banks and your pensions, to ones that don't invest in fossil fuels or petrochemical companies, like just do it today, obviously use renewable energy. Those things really speak volumes in a much more powerful way about a system and where the money goes. At the moment, it's difficult to do that because of what's happened with the energy price hikes. Write to your Member of Parliament, write template letters. For example, stop sending your dirty plastic to Turkey. Like it's been how many years now that we know the problem here, sort of, can we sort out our own recycling and keep pressing send no matter how many times they go? We've seen your letter, we're doing the best we can, platitudes, platitudes, platitudes. Apparently, you kind of hear it on the grapevine that, you know, they hate when so many people keep on pestering them with the same request and the same letters, do that. It has huge power. So we have a lot more clout as citizens than we think. But then, of course, we know where the buck stops. So when I did the plastics film, it was you know, we need to turn the plastic tap off at the source. So, and this is an example. But it's the same with all of the other problems contributing to climate change and biodiversity loss. And the plastics industry in America alone was investing billions of dollars to increase production of virgin plastic by 40%, in the next decade, so we're already two years into it, you know, it's all systems go. And fossil fuel companies are now investing more in building new petrochemical company factories to make virgin plastic than oil because you know, oil is going off the boil and but you know, they're just business as usual. And then we have a Cumbria coal mine about to open in the UK. After all of these amazing things, I was quite surprised at the speech that Boris Johnson read out, whoever wrote it, I was like, Oh, sounds like you care. And now there's much more investment continuing business as usual. So how do we stop that? I feel this is my opinion. And again, this is a biologist trying to get to grips with what the heck is going on on this planet, right. But where I've come to and this has continuously evolving is, the change won't happen at political level, because they're too busy being lobbied and they've got a beautiful cushy, little relationship with all of those companies that are continuing to contribute most to climate change than anything else. Businesses, communities, big organizations are those that are going to change the planet by making those difficult decisions. Now, it's very easy for me to say this, when you're a company that still sort of is slave to GDP and profit. But as communities and big businesses, we have to make the decision that endless profit, infinite profit every year, is not the answer. And once we all start to kind of come together and make that decision, then everything starts to crumble and supported by circular economists and donut economists, etc, that can happen. Case in point, Copenhagen, Amsterdam and Costa Rica. Some of the world you know, Costa Rica are amazingly, you know. World leaders have so many things to do with sustainability and creating a better planet for our children and grandchildren. They've already adopted those models, and they're working at how that can, you know, and we haven't, they haven't got all the solutions. You know, Donut economics is sort of like a template of a concept that needs to be worked through. And that's what you know, these economists are working on. But there is a lot going on, and environmental law is supporting that. And so I think it's about the communities are going to, you know, if we really live in a democracy, then we're just going to go, this is how you want to live. If you want to be elected, you need to follow us, does that make any sense?

Jim Scheer 43:49

A huge amount of sense. And like, the thing that jumps out to me is, is authentic leadership, and owning that and who can actually lead rather than feeling at the mercy of the systems.

Liz Bonnin 44:00

That is exactly it, 21st century business leaders are the leaders that we deserve to have and to be no matter what we do, you and I can play a role. Check us out, we're 21st century business leaders in the way we choose to live, and how we choose to connect with others, the conversations we want to have, the suggestions we might just put out there. And then try and find some support from you know, the experts that know much better about the economy and about politics and about industry. You know, that's what it's about I think.

Jim Scheer 44:30

Finally, maybe let's look to the future, and this is our imagination piece really. So when you think about the future, we'll say in 2050 what do you see, perhaps for Ireland or for the world? What what's happened? Where are we at in 2050?

Liz Bonnin 44:46

If it's all if it all goes according to the plan that we'd like to see happen? Let's be positive. If we get things right, Jim. We will have absolutely turned our back on fossil fuels and petrochemicals. We would have invested properly, because 2050 is only around the corner. So we probably won't be there. But we will certainly if we get things right, we'll be on our way to thinking about the long term to working together as one community, with everything that we use in this ecosystem of resource use that I mentioned, we have firmly placed the planet and nature, our life support system, at the very heart of everything we do, and all the decisions we make. And we, every day, remember that we are nature. And so we reciprocate for everything that nature gives us. And we mindfully live our lives in a way that still uses science and technology and all of our great advances. But always without overshooting planetary boundaries, and making sure that the well being of society is maintained. So there is no more starvation, there is no more lack of education, you know, and the pandemic showed how we could almost press reset on money, how we could just make money out of thin air and provide billions to this sector and this sector. So it doesn't wash with me that Oh, but we don't have enough money for this. It's not, you know, it's too expensive. We just need to make the decision to live in a fundamentally different way. And I'll defer to the experts to show us exactly how but if we do listen, then that's what 2050 looks like. And it does remind me of sort of indigenous knowledge and indigenous wisdom, which is what humans were all like, once we were all intimately connected to nature. And we never took more than we needed, because it would make us more money. We were just respectfully living within the planetary boundaries that gives gifts us with so much. And so we've decided not to put, by 2050, anymore band aids on top of the cracking screen. And we've decided to look at the root causes of everything, all the while remembering who we are as humans, our place on this planet, and how connected we are to it.

Jim Scheer 47:08

It sounds like there's a bit of beauty in that I would mind living in that 2050. Are you an optimist? Or you're optimistic?

Liz Bonnin 47:18

I find that hard to answer. Am I optimistic? I'm optimistic in the sense that it's not even as if there are any gaps in our law, that knowledge to get us there, we have everything we need to get us there. And here's the truth, because I did have to think long and hard about whether I'm optimistic but I am at the end of the day, because this job of mine also gifts me with, you know, arguably the most beautiful gift of all in my job, which is to spend time with those humans that get it already and that are just working in all sorts of ways to create that future by 2050, or you know, maybe a little bit beyond it might take a bit longer but with certain things because certainly we don't have that much time for like for climate change, etc. I mean, there's a lot of work to do. But yeah, I am because if we were all absolutely horrid, and we didn't get it. Well, sure. I just go to the cave and drink myself into a stupor and just think well, yeah, we're all doomed. We're all awful. But we have the propensity in us to be incredible. And we are many of us are we just get it. We know what it means to be human, and we will fight for the future that everyone deserves. And because I get to spend time with them. That makes me optimistic. We do have it in us to fix this.

Jim Scheer 48:34

Wonderful. It's been a fascinating conversation, Lis Bonnin thanks for sharing your time and being so open. And best of luck with your mission.

Liz Bonnin 48:42

Thank you. It's been a pleasure, Jim.

Jim Scheer 48:46

Thank you for listening to today's podcast. We hope you enjoyed our conversation and it's left you in action and hopeful for our future. Please visit seai.ie/podcast for information on each of our guests this season and links to further relevant material to support you around your own climate actions or resources if you're suffering from any climate anxiety. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to 180 degrees and rate the podcast to help us spread the word.