Lucy Dearlove: This is Lecker. I'm Lucy Dearlove. This month:

Matooke Goes With Everything

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: You know, when you say

that...if...you ask if it tastes different here, compared to

Uganda? The thing is in Uganda, they don't boil it, just boil it

as we boil it here. So what they do, they have a basket like

this, and they get the fibre from the banana leaf. And they

put it cross, cross in the basket. Then they get a banana,

another, a big banana leaf, depending on how many people

you're cooking for. And you put it, you fold it and you put it

in the basket. So you peel your matooke, and you put it in this

banana leaf and make a big parcel. Yeah? Using the banana

fibres, you tie it up. And then the way they cook it, then

they...put like...it's been modernized now. Before they used

to take the stalk from the banana itself, you know, the

banana, the bunch and put it under the sauce...underneath in

the saucepan, then put all... sort of making a steamer. Yeah?

Katasi E. Kironde: A natural steamer, yeah.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And then they will put this parcel

on top of the stalks, you know? And then you use the banana

leaves and sort of cover it up, put it in a saucepan and cover,

people use about six or seven green ones. And then you boil

it. To get the aroma of the banana leaf.

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And then after it's been cooked,

they don't mash it with a masher like we do here. They use their

hands and sort of another banana leaf. And they use their hands

to mash it within the, you know, in the parcel. I don't know how

the women know - or whoever's cooking know - that the...I

don't know how they know that is mashed enough and it has no

lumps in it. But they do it because they don't open the

banana leaf to see if it's soft, or if it's ready or not. And

then once they've done that, they put it back in the saucepan

and go over the whole process again, of re-steaming it so that

way it becomes softer and yellow. And it takes more aroma

from the banana leaves.

Katasi E. Kironde: It's steaming, it comes off...it's

served to you steaming, you know as opposed to here...you know

it's a little bit lumpier. And also, I feel like it's the

original slow cooker, because these...four hours it might take

just make this...

Lucy Dearlove: Just over this very low heat, just the ashes,

yeah.

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah,

My name is Katasi E. Kironde. I'm from West London via

Kampala.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: My name is Elizabeth Kibalama. I'm

Katasi's mother. And actually, same thing. I grew up in Uganda

now been here in England for quite some...a number of years.

Lucy Dearlove: So when I asked...when I asked Katasti if

she would speak to me for Lecker, basically the first

thing you said was like "Do you want to speak to my mum, as

well, because I learned everything I know from her?" So

maybe you could just tell me a bit about how you learned to

cook Elizabeth. You know, what did you grow up eating?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: You know something, it was really

amazing. I think I learned cooking when I was about six

years old. I could make the groundnut sauce. So what you're

gonna have some now! Yeah, yeah, I was allowed to do groundnut

sauce. So I think basically, that was the first thing I was

allowed to cook. Because by then I was living with an uncle of

mine, you know, sort of, in sort of in the village. We used to

grow our own food, like tomatoes and all the vegetables and

everything. One just had to go to the garden to pick up the

tomatoes and onions, and you've come home and you cut up the

onions and...and funnily enough, we never fried anything at all,

we never used any oils at all, you know, it was all natural.

And then as far as matooke was concerned - this was really

crazy - because there is a special knife the people at home

use. It's sort of hooked, you know, at the top here like this

and it's got a wooden, a wooden handle. As they got...that knife

gets older, the wooden handle breaks off. So they tend to give

that to the children to learn to peel so that they don't cut

themselves and it was always blunt.

Lucy Dearlove: So much harder?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, but anyway, I think they just

didn't want us to cut ourselves, you know, so many of us...we

struggled, but we eventually got into the idea of learning how to

peel the matooke. And then, of course, by then I could watch

how my aunt used to, you know, to prepare the matooke and all

that.

Lucy Dearlove: And could you explain what matooke is?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: It's a form of...a banana. But this

one is not eaten as a fruit, it;s eaten as a staple food,

like you could eat sweet potato or mashed potato, or something

like that.

Katasi E. Kironde: If I'm very specific, in Buganda, like the

ethnic group that we are from the centre and around Kampala,

many people will say like "a meal isn't a meal without

matooke". Like you haven't eaten, if you've eaten anything

else, you've eaten rice, sweet potato, chapati and there's no

matooke...it's not food, as they would say!

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: In actual fact, they always

say.....when they say food, which is emmere, in Uganda, they

mean matooke.

Lucy Dearlove: Okay, right!

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. The others are additionals.

Yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: So if someone says that, you know, they mean

Matooke, wow.

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah.

There's really no matooke, there's no food.

It's very specific to the, to the Great Lakes region. So you'd

find it in Congo and Rwanda. I think in Rwanda they call it

Etooke, yeah, in Tanzania, especially around...I mean,

Uganda is landlocked. So anywhere around, really, you'll

find it.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Literally all around around Lake Victoria.

Katasi E. Kironde: We buy it in Shepherds Bush...do you get it

from Strawberry Hill, from Strawberry Hill?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah from Strawberry Hill.

Katasi E. Kironde: Strawberry Hill, very specific shop within

the market. But it's cheaper to buy in boxes, but we would never

finish a whole box. You can get better prices in South London

and East London and where there's more clusters of Ugandan

people. And if you go too late, sometimes that we have to call

them up and say, Oh, can you just hold them back for us? And

we might not find any.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, they know us now.

There is something called Luwombo and that is vegetables

or meat prepared in a banana leaf. They get a basket like

this. And then they get the young of the plant, the banana

leaf without holes in it, and they would smoke it. You know,

they pass it over the fire and it becomes more like plasticky.

And then they fold it, put it in the basket, then you can put

your...depending on what you want to cook. You could cook

meat or fish or groundnut sauce or mushroom sauce. Literally

anything you know. I mean it goes with anything.

Katasi E. Kironde: But I think matooke is one of these...I

don't know, one of these foods that just pairs well, with so

many different flavours. You can have it with a meat...like

matooke nyama which is literally matooke and meat...it's just

like, divine because it just soaks up the sauce and I find it

that it's best eaten with your hands like for for like...I'm

not gonna make you use your hands Lucy! But just to soak up

the last bit of gravy and because matooke doesn't have an

overpowering taste. So it just blends well with everything.

When I'm in Uganda I like to have it with offals. A lot of

our sauces are blended with curry powder, a bit of Royco,

which is just like the super mix, and tomatoes and fried

onions. So like a bit of...yeah, bit of a curry sauce, really and

again, this curry is symbolic of the South Asian influence. You

can have matooke in so many different ways like Katogo which

would be like a mash up or melange of beans, but you'd have

it whole so you don't have to mash it. And that's the one I

make the most because I don't have to, I don't have to sort of

pound it. It's like peel, boil and then mix it up with your

bean sauce.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Bean sauce or groundnut sauce or

meat, yeah.

Katasi E. Kironde: You just literally...so at an angle you

just peel at an angle and then there's lots of sap so you've

got to put oil in your hands. Yeah, they're really sappy.

Let's take out the matooke. Well, we have shortcuts. So my

mum's... mum taught me how to make it really but basically you

put it in a pressure cooker, just to speed up the process

after you've peeled it and then take it out the pressure cooker

and then mash it with like your regular potato masher. And

then...this part is quite intricate...do you want to

explain?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: So this is what we do can you see?

Lucy Dearlove: I'm just going to take a photo!

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: She wants to take a photo! So what

you do, once you've done, you've mashed it, you use a foil, and

you put it in a foil paper and wrap it up. You get a casserole

dish, and you get like a kitchen cloth. And you wet it and wring

the water out.

Lucy Dearlove: OK, so inside here...under the....this is the

dish cloth you describe?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, this is the dish cloth. And so

you just do it like this. And sit that kitchen cloth in the

casserole dish. Then you take your parcel of matooke in foil

and put it inside. Wrap it up. So it keeps it moist.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. So kind of like like the banana leaves.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, this is sort of imitating the

original sort of thing. And then

Lucy Dearlove: Oh wow, okay,

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. If you've got a cover for the

casserole dish, you cover it, and you just stick it in the

oven. You know, at a very low heat.

Katasi E. Kironde: I hope this is warm enough. I'll just take

some out for you. So we've got the groundnut sauce. And we'll

put some fish in there. Because traditionally, you put some fish

in or you could put mushrooms.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: So what we doto improvise here

because we can't get the dry fish we get from home. We use

mackerel. Smoked mackerel, yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah. And that's a similar...a similar flavour?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. As long as it's dried fish,

yeah.

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. You can get dry fish in Shepherds Bush,

but it'll be...

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: You have to soak it. And sometimes

it's hard. And all that. Though if we went...if we were bothered

to go to East London, we can get the fresh fish. Tilapia from

Uganda.

Katasi E. Kironde: Is that...they're just spring

greens aren't they?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: No, no, that is spinach

Katasi E. Kironde: Oh, spinach. But again, we have so much

vegetation in Uganda. That you...

Lucy Dearlove: So lots of greens?

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, exactly.

Lucy Dearlove: So I think a bit of this and then live in get it

in?

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, exactly. Yes, precisely.

Lucy Dearlove: Mm hmm. Okay, yeah. I see what you mean about

the like how savoury it is. Yeah. Because it's weird, like,

even though you've been saying that it's kind of hard to get

your head around.

Katasi E. Kironde: A none...a savoury banana.

Lucy Dearlove: A completely savoury banana.

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. But you know, when I went to Guadeloupe

to see one of my friends...they also...obviously, in the

Caribbean they have a green banana. And when I came back, I

was adamant that it was the same and then actually I realised it

wasn't because when I tried to boil it down and mash it it's a

completely different variety that they have.

Lucy Dearlove: Okay, it looks really similar?

Katasi E. Kironde: It looks a little bit similar and in fact,

I think ours are fatter, have more water content.

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, cos the the texture of it is so sturdy. Like

you wouldn't think that something in the banana family

could keep that much structure when it's cooked. Because

bananas when you cook them they just like dissolve.

Katasi E. Kironde: Exactly.

Lucy Dearlove: And even plantain that is very soft. Yeah, but

yeah, it's much more...yeah, much more like almost like, I

don't know, like polenta or something. Well, yeah, very

structural.

Katasi E. Kironde: Polenta's a good comparison.

Lucy Dearlove: This is really good with the fish as well.

Katasi E. Kironde: Nice!

Lucy Dearlove: So is this something that you would eat a

lot?

Katasi E. Kironde: Because of that process, you know, this

whole pounding process sometimes we would just make...I would

leave it whole and just have it as katogo. My mum says when she

when she's back in Uganda, that's all she eats, matooke.

Just matooke.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: I don't eat anything else.

Somebody gives me rice, I think they are...

Katasi E. Kironde: Not interested.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Because when...the last time I went home

in general I went home, I was in Uganda in January and my brother

was from the United States was at home and it was a lot of us

at the house. So like it would have cassava and we'll have our

different yams and pumpkin and, and you name it and ugali and

all that you know for dinner. And then you know they're asking

me, Elizabeth, what would you like? Matooke. And they will

say, aren't you having any cassava? No. Aren't you having

pumpkin? No, Aren't you having rice? No.

Lucy Dearlove: You can get those anywhere!

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. Actually, my mother had a short

cut.

Lucy Dearlove: An original short cut.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, I mean, she had so many children

she had to cut out what she could cut. So like instead of

going into the elaborate thing of putting you know, the banana

stalk in the saucepan and all that... what she used to do to

is just get a saucepan, put water in the saucepan, put a

banana leaf in. Peel the matooke, wash them, throw them

in the saucepan, wrap the matooke okay, with the banana

leaf without using the banana fibers, you know?

Lucy Dearlove: Okay, yeah.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And just cover it and boil it. And

when it's finished, she'll just use the same banana leaf that

she...that she put in originally and just use that to mash the

matooke. Okay, okay. Yeah, that's it. That was... that is

the easiest way.

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. And I think that...like my generation,

people are not living in the sort of same housing that can

afford them to have an outdoor space where you can do all of

this and put it on the stove, or the charcoal stove. So people

are adapting. And I remember in the 00s...like in the 00s

somebody came up with Tooke powder, which was meant to be

instant matooke powder, you know? Yeah. But for special

occasions, you know, you hire somebody or you go out and you

make the more elaborate one.

Lucy Dearlove: How did the Tooke powder go down?

Katasi E. Kironde: I tried it, it wasn't the same. You can't

cheat everything.

Lucy Dearlove: It's like instant mash, it's never gonna be...

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, or microwave oats. It's not the

same.

Lucy Dearlove: Sometimes the shortcut is okay. Sometimes

you've just got to you've got to do the whole thing.

Katasi E. Kironde: One of the stories that my mother tells me

is about posho, the cornmeal that you turn into...you add

water to and you pound it. Like the polenta, but like the East

African one? Was it during the war mum?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: No, no, there wasn't during the war. It was a famine when, when I was a little girl, and there was no matooke. You know, so the Buganda started to eat ugali from Kenya. And they also learned how to use maize to make the cornmeal. So the Buganda themselves had this concept in their head that everything must be wrapped in a banana leaf. I'm not kidding! My sister does it and I really, I mean, I haven't told her, I just look at her. I think she's crazy. My mother does it as well. So they they prepare the cornmeal...like everybody like the Kenyans and the Nigerians and the other African people add water and stir stir. They just put the hot water on, stir it, cook it and serve with it. But what the Buganda did...to them their concept of food without it being wrapped in a banana leaf was something else so they started preparing this thing and wrapping it in a banana leaf and going through the whole process as you would prepare the matooke.

Lucy Dearlove: Oh wow!

Katasi E. Kironde: Almost reminiscing what they were

missing, you know?

Lucy Dearlove: Yeah, like the ritual of preparing it

Katasi E. Kironde: Yes, yeah.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: But now it's become tradition

because at my sister's house, she prepared, they prepare

matooke and they prepare this ugali thing wrapped in banana

leaf. And I said to her, what is this? Because I don't like it, I

don't like it wrapped in banana leaf. I like it the way you just

prepare it on the fire and serve it. And they think...when I say

I don't want to I don't want to eat that they think I'm crazy!

Katasi E. Kironde: But even then, the matooke came back but

people continued with this elaborate process and it's just

not necessary. I don't...because you know how the leaves when

like they steam into the posho and it just takes from a

slightly different texture or like taste. I just don't think

it's necessary and it's like, ugali, posho or whatever you

want to call it is like our pasta, it's like instant. Why

must I complicate it?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And then you have the green, the

green from the leaves

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah. And then it's no longer white.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. And no longer white

Katasi E. Kironde: It's one of my favorite stories my mum

tells.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: And at one time, it was frowned upon

for anybody to eat ugali.

Lucy Dearlove: Oh really!

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Oh yeah, dogs' food. Yeah but that

famine taught them something!

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah but literally like that's what

people would give their dogs Oh, yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: But it's so funny, that something that came

out of necessity, like that method of preparation that

people still do it. Yeah, that's so interesting.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. Incredible. Because I remember

my mother, even if they were not getting...no guests or visitors

coming, she would prepare dinner by say like three o'clock. The

dinner would be on the fire already. And she would just put

chunks of wood, you know, firewood to keep the food warm,

and steam it for a longer period. And funny enough, if

you've eaten matooke that has been steamed...resteamed, it

tastes quite different compared to when you just boil and serve.

Lucy Dearlove: What's the difference?

Katasi E. Kironde: It's a bit hard, harder, isn't it? It's a

bit tougher.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, it's hard. Funnily enough, when

you...when it's been steamed, and you've used the banana

leaves, it actually doesn't look yellow. It goes a bit orangey,

or something like that, and softer. You know?

Katasi E. Kironde: And I also think the way that it served

like and Uganda we'll say "okujjula", you know, to serve.

It...that's also a very elaborate process. You know,

it's not something like, oh, just put this on. And, you know,

remember, there's always layers. Yeah, so people will sit down on

like, one of....like my grandmother's kitchen, one of

those those mats in the corner, the omukeeka, you'd lay that

out. And there's actually an event, isn't it mummy?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. Oh, god, it's an event. Yeah. I

mean, so like, traditionally, we didn't use tables, we all sat

down. You know, so like, they'll bring that big parcel of food,

you're gonna, you know, and put it in the middle somewhere, you

know, you have, you have papyrus mats, you know. Yeah, so every

house had that. It's a more like a table, you know, but they used

to put it on the floor

Katasi E. Kironde: Like a runner.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Like a runner runner, and everybody

would sit round this big meal. Before the Europeans came, and

before we got plates, they used to use those banana parcels I

told you. So everybody's like, if you, if it was 10 of you in

the household, they will make 10 little parcels. They put it on

the food, you know, within the the steaming process, they put

it in there. So when the food was ready, the vegetables were

ready. So when you took...when you were ready to serve, you

take your little parcels of meat or groundnut sauce or whatever,

something and put them in a basket and put it outside. And

then you take your big parcel and put it in the middle of this

big sort of...this one. And then everybody will sit around. And

then you'll find that the mother or the adults would serve the

food. They didn't expose the whole thing, you open half of

it. And during the process while they were preparing, they used

to cut little banana sort of squares. Which were used as

spoons. So you, you take it from the big parcel, you fold it and

you sort of use that to take off the

Lucy Dearlove: Like a scoop?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah, scoop. And just give it to

everybody who is who is sitting around. And then the bus, you

know, the little parcels you've made of like vegetables, or

whatever you're eating with the food. You give each person one

of those. One time I had a party in Uganda. And I think we had

about...we had a lot of guests with it. I think we had about

200 guests, but each guests got one of those Luwombos. Everybody

got one. Yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: So how long would that have taken to prepare 200?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: What do you do...you hire people!

Katasi E. Kironde: Yeah, but even now at my grandma's house,

if we have like a Sunday meal...you know, again, it will

be served when everyone's gathered. Yeah, it's not, you

know, help yourself and then wait for next person. We just

honour the process I think.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: The beauty about it was cos there's

people who don't eat meat, there are people who don't eat

groundnut sauce, there are people who don't eat that. So

you would make those parcels according to the preferences of

the family. So like if somebody didn't eat meat, you prepare

groundnut sauce or you prepare something else and so and they

will mark the parcels and say this is for Katasi because she

doesn't eat meat. So this is her fish and this is so and so's

groundnut. And this...Yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: How would they...how would they mark them,

would they just write on them?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: No, they use the banana...

Katasi E. Kironde: The fibre

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: The fibre...and when they tie it

around to make a parcel because they make a parcel. They may put

a knot or three knot on it on one of the, the ties to make

sure that two is Katasi's groundnut sauce, yeah. Three is

on so and so's you know fish and wherever.

Katasi E. Kironde: Culturally in Buganda culture, if somebody

finds you eating, they don't...they don't have to greet

them. You can literally just...you don't greet people

eating. Okay, you know?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah. And then you don't..when you're

during meal time. You're not supposed to be chit chatting.

You know, it's like, well, like the English don't talk at the

table. Don't speak during a meal.

Lucy Dearlove: But for a nicer reason?

Katasi E. Kironde: For a nicer reason, yeah.

I think I really got into cooking when I moved back to

Uganda after uni. My dad's...he's a chef, and he

writes about food. So he was doing classes. And I said, Oh,

can I can I join in? And actually, the times I'd spend

with him when I was there, he'd...he'd be doing reviews, so

he might take my siblings and I so I got an interest in it. And

then when I did the classes with him, I think that's when it

really took off for me...like not took off, but I really got

into it. And I liked experimenting. And when I moved

to Uganda at that point, I was vegetarian.

Lucy Dearlove: Ah, okay,

Katasi E. Kironde: Which was interesting because one of my

uncle, one of my late uncles would say, you know, we can get

you medicine for that. We can get you medicine. I'm like, no,

no, I'm not allergic to meat. I'm just choosing not to. And

what's ironic is that traditionally, Buganda, we

didn't eat meat in the way that we do now, as much as we did you

know, it was a Sunday...I remember growing up it being a

Sunday affair, you know, once a week, you ate what you...I don't

want to say you ate what you caught but, you know, your

chicken...the chicken was slaughtered there, it wasn't as

mass produced. So it was funny that people made such a big deal

about me being vegetarian.

Every individual belongs to a certain clan or Totem and it's

patriarchal in the sense that you follow the man's line. It's

how the Kingdom, the Bganda kingdom is divided. Folk tales

and traditions around my totem or my clan, which is

grasshoppers. I'm not to eat it, because if I do, then I might

lose my blessings. Or I might get an adverse reaction to

eating grasshoppers, which are a massive delicacy.

Lucy Dearlove: Wow. Okay.

Katasi E. Kironde: In Uganda. And then everyone has...people

have names that are specific. So you've got grasshopper names. My

mum's a monkey. So she's got like, monkey, a monkey name. But

yeah. So when you meet, someone they'll tell you their name. If

they have a name that you sort of know about your brothers

have, you couldn't possibly ever have a relationship with them,

because somewhere down the line, you are related. So it's quite

sophisticated. And also it's said that the King who

introduced them was also trying to preserve the animals because

then you wouldn't consume your animal.

Lucy Dearlove: Right, right.

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: One time I met this wonderful guy.

And his name was Kabango. So I came home and I asked my mother,

asked my aunt. I said, this guy is so lovely. His name is

Kabango. He said, What? I said his name is Kabango. Can I go

out with him? They said, No, you cannot. You are not allowed.

Lucy Dearlove: And they knew straightaway?

Nakigudde Elizabeth Kibalama: Yeah.

Lucy Dearlove: Lecker is hosted and produced by me, Lucy

Dearlove. Thanks so much to Katasi E. Kironde and Nakigudde

Elizabeth Kibalama, my guests on this episode.

Katasi's written for outlets like Peckham Peculiar and Black

Ballad. And she was also a co host on the Unsavoury Ethnic

Types podcast, who did a great episode about Ugandan food that

I really recommend listening to, I'll link to in the show notes.

So you can also listen. Katasi also guest curated a recent

issue of Fair Magazine, which is a magazine that focuses each

issue on a particular city, the one Katasi did was all about

Kampala. I just checked, and it's actually currently reduced

on the Fare website, so you can still buy a copy for an even

cheaper price. I'll also link to that in the show notes. I love

this magazine. I learned so much from it, Katasi did an amazing

job. The design of the photography is so beautiful,

highly recommended. Katasi actually sent me a copy of this

when it first came out. And that's what planted the seed for

the idea for this episode. We actually talked a bit more about

the magazine and a couple of specific pieces in it because

there's some really interesting ideas there. And those bits of

the conversation that I had with Katasi are going to be available

on the Patreon bonus episode of the podcast which comes out

monthly on the Patreon page. You can get access to those by

signing up for three pound a month at

patreon.com/leckerpodcast. Other ways you can support Lecker?

Tell your friends, please spread the word...rate and review on

Apple podcasts or Spotify. Buy merch from the Lecker Big Cartel

site, but generally just enjoy and appreciate the podcast and

share it if you have, that means the world to me.

All the music in this episode is by Blue Dot Sessions. And thanks

as always to Ben McDonald, who did a beautiful illustration of

Katasi and her mum for this episode. You can see that on the

Lecker Instagram and Twitter @leckerpodcast. I'll be back in

your podcast feeds next month. Thanks for listening.