Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a
podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,
knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework.
AB Walker: I feel like DevOps has diversity, equity inclusion,
theoretically at its core, but not necessarily actively at its
core. Yeah, it's not. It wasn't the first thing that you thought
of when, when Jean Kim wrote, you know, Phoenix Project that
they were they were talking about automation, they're
talking about all sorts of things. But talking about being
an inclusive, accepting, radically open environment so
that people can feel safe and feel productive in their own
workspace and in their own homes. That's That's it. That's,
that's the center.
Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member
experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps
podcast. Welcome back. I hope you've had a wonderful few
weeks, we got to enjoy July 4 here in the United States. And
it's just been a celebration of the summer. What I would like to
talk about today actually doesn't pertain to July at all.
We're kind of going back in time, a little bit to June. Last
month, June was pride month in the United States. It's a chance
for members of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, queer and
intersex LGBTQ i plus community to be proud and visible. In a
world where it's been difficult to be, let's face it. It's also
a chance for everyone who doesn't identify as LGBTQ i plus
to support, celebrate and fight along with their fellow citizens
for Equity and Inclusion, at home, in society and in their
workplaces. If you've been paying attention at all, there
have been some major wins for the LGBTQ plus community. Hard
because there's been so many losses too. But there was one
major win on June 15, when President Biden, the President
of the United States of America, I mean, this is a big deal
signed a historic executive order to advance LGBTQI plus
equality. In this executive order, they address
discriminatory legislative attacks against the community,
against their children, against their families, directing at key
agencies to protect their families, and children. The
executive order prevents so called Conversion therapy with
this historic initiative to protect children from the
harmful practice. It safeguards health care and programs
designed to prevent youth suicide, and it supports LGBTQI
plus children and families by launching a new initiative to
protect foster youth prevent homelessness, and improve access
to federal programs. Now, all that being said, we have a long
way to go, especially pertaining to the workforce, which is what
we're going to talk about today. Goodness, we could talk about so
much more, but today we're going to talk about the workforce.
According to a recent survey, 65% of non binary individuals
experienced discrimination at work. Only 46% said they felt
safe and a mere 38% felt like they belonged. The
dissatisfaction among LGBTQI plus respondents with the
current state of LGBTQI inclusion is clear. 40% of
LGBTQI plus employees are not out at work. 26% of these
individuals wish that they could be out 36% of our employees have
lied or covered parts of their identities at work in the past
year. 54% of employees who are out at work remain closeted to
their clients and customers. And worst of all 75% reported
experiencing at least one negative interaction related to
their LGBTQI plus identity at work in the past year, with 41%
experiencing more than 10 types 10 types of such interactions.
According to a recent StackOverflow developer
demographic study, only one and a half percent of all
respondents identify as transgender, which means those
learning to code are slightly more likely to prefer to not say
if they identify as transgender Look, these numbers are
troubling. They're horrible, honestly. Especially if you've
been paying attention to this podcast, where we've addressed
the general shift that's happening. Gen Z is coming in,
they're loud. They won't accept this. Thankfully, they
shouldn't. They're gonna make it clear. Now it's up to the rest
of us to actually listen to do something. It's not just Gen Z,
by the way. They're just loud. Thankfully,
on Episode 80, with Gen Z video, we discussed Gen Z, and you
might recall that 69% of them stated that they would
absolutely be more likely to apply to a job at a company that
emphasized a racially and ethnically diverse workplaces in
the recruitment materials. 88% of them felt that a recruiter or
potential employer should solicit their gender pronouns
88% Is anyone listening? That's that's almost all of them. 65%
reported feeling strongly that such questions about gender
pronouns should be part of the recruitment process. And despite
all these expectations, only 18% said, they were asked about
their gender pronouns by the recruiter. Now that's an easy
one to fix. I could go on, I could keep editorializing,
clearly, I feel strongly. hope you do too. Hope you're
disturbed by these facts, facts, folks. Here to discuss this
today with me is AB Walker, a truly wonderful person, by the
way, who I happen to know very well. And I'm excited to talk to
AVI is the resident community builder and advocate here at
DevOps Institute, having spent the breadth of the professional
career. And if they're being honest, most of their teenage
years as well, on the internet, they intimately understand the
value of both in real life in person and online.
Accessibility, equity at intersection intersectionality
that's a tough word, by the way, are deeply ingrained into how
they view the world, and the types of safe and inclusive
communities they foster. After 10 years building community in
the higher education space, he made the leap to DevOps
Institute, where they are building the DevOps in the wild
community, to help technologists of all skill levels network,
learn from one another, and grow as a community of practitioners
and human beings. And ABIM. So excited to be talking to you
today. And thank you.
AB Walker: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to be here.
Jason Baum: Thank you for coming on. Thank you for opening
yourself up being vulnerable. We read statistics. This is tough.
This must be hard. And I really appreciate it.
AB Walker: Yeah, I'm not going to pretend to represent everyone
in the alphabet mafia. Because that's way easier than saying
LGBTQI A, it's it's a long,
Jason Baum: let's let's use a long Initialism.
AB Walker: But yeah, I'm not going to pretend that I
represent anyone other than myself. But I do have experience
in this and you know, being a proud and out queer person, non
binary person, a person whose pronouns have been problematic
in the workplace. I think I can talk about my experience a
little bit, and I didn't believe it'll help somebody else.
Jason Baum: And those pronouns. Oh, I said it in in your intro,
but But what are your pronouns? How do you identify? And would
you mind kind of talking a little bit about that
identification? Because I think it's important for for our
listeners, all of us to understand it, too.
AB Walker: Yeah, sure. So my my pronouns are they them identify
as genderqueer or non binary, which, if we're going by
classifications is is a is within the trans community.
There's not much to say other than I'm me, like that's, that's
really all it boils down to. I had a really wonderful
colleague, at one point asked me really, really gently like, I
don't, I'm not really sure how to how to do this. How do I do
the pronouns thing? And I'm just like, Listen, if it's a problem,
if you don't understand, to say my name, just you don't even
have to use a pronoun, just say AB. It's as easy as that. And
when people approach it with like kindness, it just makes a
huge difference. So
Jason Baum: good pronouns, especially they them by the way,
I think you're we've talked about this, I think where some
people still LEP is not necessarily. And look, I can't
speak to like, you can't speak to everyone. I can't speak to
everyone. I can speak to myself. I was a communication major. I
was an AP English student, and I feel the Phantom slap on the
wrist. Because back then they used to do that. And that's not
really great. I'm not condoning that by any means. But that's
how that's happened. And, you know, for for grammatical
purposes, it was difficult. At first, now, it's effortless, I
believe. But yeah, it's I think that's maybe for myself. And
we've talked about this where I slip on the occasion. And I
think that that using your name is a great way to kind of combat
that.
AB Walker: It's interesting to it's interesting, how many
people say, you, you are not one of them, obviously, but how many
people are like, Oh, I was raised? Yeah, you know, really,
really focused on grammar. And the I can't I can't use they as
a singular, it's just not right. First of all, it's in it's in
the dictionary, singular they, it's been around for literally
centuries. But you also do it all the time without realizing
you're doing it. person walked by you in a? Well, in pre COVID
times when we were out together. A person walks by you in the
coffee shop and drops a wallet, and you don't and you say oh
look, they dropped their wallet. It's not actually that hard.
It's just it's more about practice than anything else.
Jason Baum: That's true. Yeah, no, that's absolutely true.
AB Walker: If it can slip out of your mouth, just naturally,
accidentally, when you're referring to somebody you don't
know, it can slip out of your mouth intentionally with someone
who do. And on the on the flip side, sort of when you don't do
that, it is a very it's a very clear sign of disrespect, even
if you don't mean it.
Jason Baum: Why do you think it is so hard for some people to do
it? Even when they No.
AB Walker: I think it's so hard for people because it's just not
what they're used to. We are creatures of habit who would do
things the same way all the time. I will talk to my partner
and say things I grew up saying in my family, and they'll look
at me like what, like we all have these phrases and ideas and
things that we've just grown up saying, and that we may need to
modify. We we've seen it with other even more problematic
language where we we don't use different pejoratives and
different slurs because that is what they are. But this doesn't
have for many people, it doesn't have the same weight. Because
you're not you're not intentionally insulting me.
Right. So I think I think some of it is that it doesn't feel as
important to some folks to put that effort in because it's just
easier to just fall in line. I thought it was really
interesting. In coming to DevOps Institute as as an organization
we are completely virtual, have always been completely virtual.
I didn't meet my colleagues in person for like six or eight
months after I'd started. So I thought for me that it was going
to be really easy to transition transition into an all virtual
community, and just have my pronouns out there and have
those be used. But even here, it was a little bit difficult. I'm
not not super difficult. Everybody has been very
accommodating and very trying their hardest and very
apologetic when they make mistakes. But it was interesting
to watch people slip immediately into she her pronouns, because
that's how my voice sounds, or my hair is longer right now. So
it was interesting to having never met anyone face to face
having never had anyone interact with my physical body still have
that stigma attached to me. Regardless, so it really is, I
think, in part, a learning process. I think it's about
understanding and respecting other people's bodily autonomy
and their their right to their personhood. But it's also a
little bit uncomfortable for the folks who are used to a really
easy binary system that at especially tech folks, we're all
into ones and zeros of course we want to a male female, he or she
that's what we want. That's what this what coders do, we work in
ones and zeros all the time. But the real world is a little more
gray than that. It has a little bit more play in it.
Jason Baum: Yeah, on the podcast, we don't talk to
computers, we talk to humans. I think that's the easiest way to
to sum that up, I want to talk to you about some of those
numbers that I read because it's hard not to. Okay, so we read
them, it's hard not to address them. Because they are so
troubling many of them I did not know, until, you know, putting
together the intro. And, and they they stick with you a
little bit, I think. And if they don't, they should, they should.
One of them in particular was about safety. And it was 46% of
the alphabet mafia. Feel safe. At work, and on first of all, I
think that should read 64% don't feel safe. I think that that
blends that one more justice. Why do you think that is?
AB Walker: I think in part we have to address different types
of safety to in person, we're talking about true bodily
autonomy, body safety. There are definitely people who when you
are visibly queer in public, in a in areas that are less
friendly to those of us who are visibly queer in public, that
you feel that danger just innately. And if you're working
in an environment where you are around folks around humans all
the time. It's really easy to feel unsafe. And I don't I don't
want to bring politics in this. But it's easy to feel unsafe in
a red state, as a visibly queer person, or unsafe in the South.
Not everywhere. Obviously, there are many places that are very
open. But there have been times when I've been traveling and I
will, I'll mask I will make myself look even more
effeminate. So that I can even even by virtue of the statistics
of women, and violence against women are pretty darn high. We
don't have to get into all of those right now. But I am
statistically more likely to be okay, if I look like a
cisgendered woman than I am, if I look like a queer person, if I
visibly show as trans because the violence against trans folks
is so just so Hi. So that's I mean that that alone contributes
to the physical physical safety is a huge issue.
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Jason Baum: free. But what about in the virtual environment? As
we talked about, you know, we are remote based and remote
only. And does it exist there too?
AB Walker: Yeah, in the virtual environment. psychological
safety is a big deal. So I feel really lucky in my work
environment, that I get to feel psychologically safe with folks,
that if I had a problem, I could say to you, Hey, Jason, I'm
having this issue. Can we talk about it, and I know you will
receive it from me, and we'll we'll be able to sort it out.
But that's not standard practice. That's not it's really
hard for for folks who are not LGBTQIA, too. It's hard for them
to sometimes step into the position of letting go of their
own discomfort with whatever the conversation is happening, and
to advocate for somebody else in that position. Because a lot of
it comes down to you know, maybe you don't want to step on toes,
maybe you don't, that person is not trying to insult you or
trying to hurt your feelings, but they are making you feel
devalued. So how do you how do you walk those lines? And I
think feeling safe is easier when you're at a physical
distance. It's easier to be safe behind a keyboard. But then,
then we can look at some of those cyberbullying statistics
and that sort of thing and say, well, that's still going to seep
into your everyday life and disrupt your safety. So I think
the reason that so many queer and trans folks feel not safe at
work is because they're not we haven't committed as a society.
Though we are seeing progress. We haven't committed as a
society to providing a space that is safe for everyone and
Without that, you can even without the agreement to like I
will, I'll tolerate you I won't, I won't aggressively, even
without an agreement for tolerance, there's just always
this risk of being visibly queer being openly gay being being out
just being out period in public, whether that's virtual or IRL,
you know, so?
Jason Baum: Yeah. So, yeah, this is this is hard to talk about.
You know, because it's so personal. It's so personal. You
know, when I would say that the answer then, right, because I
guess that the next question would be, how do we make it
safe? And I would say that, that the workplace answer has seemed
to be a DNI Dei, policy. Are we doing enough with those? And
then let's bring it back. Because this is this is the
DevOps, you know, this is the humans of DevOps podcast. So
let's talk about DevOps. Let's, let's try simplify that
question. Because this is so hard. There's so much to it,
that we're trying to wrap into a short podcast, we're not going
to do it justice, knowing that but there are, so let's, let's
bring it back to DevOps. What role does DevOps play in
creating a culture that is also you know, that has a Dei, at its
core,
AB Walker: DevOps comes down to community, it comes down to
making sure that you are bringing folks together, that
you are seeing each other for people not for the processes
that you own, or the technology that's involved in what you're
doing. It is people processes technology. So I feel like
DevOps has diversity, equity inclusion, theoretically, at its
core, but not necessarily actively at its core. Yet, it's
not. It wasn't the first thing that you thought of when when
Jean Kim wrote, you know, Phoenix Project that they were
talking about automation, they're talking about all sorts
of things. But talking about being an inclusive, accepting,
radically open environment so that people can feel safe and
feel productive in their own workspace and in their own
homes. That's, that's it, that's, that's the center like
the in order for us to make sure that DevOps is the best version
of itself that DevOps can be the culture builder and can really
help to push the processes and technology forward. It is the
people first you have to focus on their safety, their emotional
well being and all of that. So, yeah, I really think that I
really think that DevOps has has the potential to have diversity,
equity and inclusion, specifically at its core, but
it's not, it's not written out right now. It's not, we're not
necessarily doing those in tandem. It's, it's at the core
of how I believe DevOps works. But it's sort of how I want
everyone to see DevOps as well.
Jason Baum: It's not it's not it's not like part of the
mission statement. But But certainly, there are elements of
it, too, that would support it. So and you talked about
psychological safety. You know, we had Dwayne blomster. On the
podcast, Travis, he talks about psychological safety, human
debt, certainly, we could go into those. But most
importantly, you know, how important is a diversity,
equity, inclusion, policy, and psychological safety? To create
a successful DevOps culture?
AB Walker: Oh, I think you can't really do one without the other.
And I won't say that a Diversity Equity and Inclusion statement
will solve anything, because truly behind anything, there has
to be action in order for a dei statement or a commitment to dei
to mean anything. It needs to be backed up by the actual the act
of doing the the actual doing of the inclusion.
Jason Baum: Well, well, to your point. I mean, just now, like,
go back to the beginning of the podcast, right? And those
numbers, right, I mean, it proves it, right with Gen Z. And
they're asking for a recognized pronouns on your on your
application. Sounds simple, right? Yeah. Like all those
companies have dei policies to buy, they
AB Walker: absolutely do. But most of them most of them won't
ask that question yet. And it's so as let's just talk about
entering a new job. So when I start a new job, my name my my
birth name, the name on my birth certificate is not AB Walker. It
is my professional name for a number of reasons. But name
changes are really expensive. So not going to not going to do
that right about now. And I don't really hate the name I was
born with, I just don't need that to be my professional
moniker. However, when I joined, when I joined an organization,
what's the first thing that happens? You submit all this
paperwork with your legal name, they immediately create your
email address with your dead name, they immediately put
pronouns on there that may or may not suit you. And it
happens, it happens at work, it happens at the doctor's office,
it happens everywhere. And that, it sounds it sounds weird to say
that that's that's an aggression toward me. But in some ways,
that makes me feel less like a person, it makes me feel like
oh, these things that are part of who I am, don't matter to you
as the organization. So just including, including pronouns,
even if even if you don't ask someone to give you their
pronouns, give them the opportunity to be like, if you
want to share your pronouns, here's the time to do it.
Because there are there are definitely still folks. And I
think they're my mom said, I could tell the stories, I'm
going to say there, like my mom grew as a as a technologist,
she's kind of a heavy hitter, she has always preferred to not
use pronouns and to not share them in a public forum, because
she doesn't want to be known as a woman in technology, she wants
to be known as a technologist first, I just want to be me, I
don't want to have to like I don't want to have to give you
my pronouns, I wish we could purely, I think it'd be kind of
nice. If we just all went by a neutral, whatever. Let's pick a
neutral set of pronouns, and everyone gets the same one.
Because you can get who you're talking about, by context clues,
it's not that hard. So there are definitely reasons why folks
don't want to have to put their pronouns out there. But there
are more folks that will feel safe if you do. And there are
more folks who will be able to feel comfortable in their own
skin, which promotes their own emotional and psychological
safety, which enables them to be better employees. And I don't
want to boil it down to like some, like corporate, you know,
equation on how do you get more productivity out of people, but
happy are people do well, people who feel safe, do better, and
are more likely to have long happy careers doing things that
they love. And that benefits the organization as well as the
individual.
Jason Baum: Yeah, I mean, the excuse that it's hard to turn
things around, you know, you know, I've heard the cruise ship
example, you know, turning these things around is like turning a
cruise ship or, you know, and but then we go back to pronouns,
and simply just putting pronouns on the job application, for
example, something easy, or like you said, when you're when
you're filling out the HR, homework, and you need to put
everything down simply asking for pronouns. It's not hard.
That's like, that's such an easy thing to do. I think the problem
is, and look, I could, I'm really trying not to
editorialize too much as the host of the podcast. But I will
just say that, what my observation is, is that it does
seem like that when you do that, for example, I'm wondering if
they're getting backlash, too. And I think it comes from both
sides. And unfortunately, like so many things in the United
States, for example, becomes a political issue, and not
necessarily an issue of humanity. And unfortunately, on
marrying those two is difficult. And I would, that's my
observation, it doesn't necessarily mean it's true.
That's just what I think.
AB Walker: Yeah, that's definitely one of the things
that I've experienced. A lot of my previous work I spent time
with, with friends in HR, and they are they see they they
answer those questions all the time. My response to that,
though, is providing people an option to share their pronouns
to share their, their their, and not an like on a form, not
calling it a nickname, calling it like preferred name, like I
know how these databases work, I know that you can do that. It's
not that hard to set up my preferred name as the name you
send things to. That's not That's not that difficult. I'm
pretty sure if a monkey can type Shakespeare monkey can also do
that, you know, but giving people the option is never the
worst choice. It is significantly more inclusive and
significantly easier than forcing someone to try and get
their own pronouns on the on the forum, or having someone be
constantly dead named and feel Same at work and not be able to
bring that up to HR because it's not safe for them to do so. So
while it might make someone who is very confident in their
gender let's say this nicely.
Jason Baum: Well done. Don't say it nicely. This is no good
podcast be honest.
AB Walker: Well, I mean, while it might make someone who is,
let's say cisgendered, confident in their in the gender that they
were born into someone who is confident in their pronouns,
somebody who is not part of the LGBTQIA community, while it
might ruffle feathers, the inclusion effort is
significantly more worth it than than worrying about ruffled
feathers. Because there's an option on a checkbox like that,
it's not going to harm you that I can share my pronouns. In
fact, what's going to harm me more, and what's going to harm
you more in the long run, let's say you're my employer, is if I
can't share myself with you, and then I either, like, take my own
life, because suicide rates among queer and trans folks are
so high, or can't be like a productive happy member of
society, because my safety is consistently being taken away.
And it may seem like pronouns are not a big deal in that
regard. But that's, it's you're identifying who I am as a
person. And if you are constantly calling me out by
something that does not reflect how I feel about myself, and
does not reflect who I am. It's like somebody all day every day
calling you, Jim, Jim Baum. Hi, Hi, Jim. How you doing? Right?
It's not It's like somebody using it is somebody using a
name that's not yours? It's somebody using terminology that
doesn't reflect you that isn't you? And doing so in a way that
whether intentionally or unintentionally harms your,
your, your mental health every time that happens?
Jason Baum: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And, you know, I
think for me, when I hear you speak, and I read the
statistics, and it just brings me back to who I am as a person,
I'm, I identified myself right now, as a parent. I do identify
who I am. But you know, what, I'm also a parent, and I think
about the world that I want my child to be brought up in. And
all I could think about, as you're talking is, I think we
have we have ingrained rights as individuals. And that is the
right to be safe, the right to be seen, and we should be
validated. And that, to me, is what brings someone that that
that closure, that psychological safety that we're seeking,
right. It's just seeming, you don't have to agree, right? Hear
me validate that I that exist. And then and hopefully,
hopefully, that brings safety. And for that I no matter what
your belief system is, I think that I would hope that we can
all meet on that common ground, I hope, I hope that there's that
that for us as humanity otherwise, I don't know what
we're going to do. Abi really appreciate your time and coming
on. And I wish we could talk about this more because this is
a topic and perhaps we could in whether we do it on this podcast
or another vehicle. But I appreciate you coming on and
sharing and opening yourself up. I do have one last question.
What's one question you wish I'd asked you? And then how would
you answer that question?
AB Walker: I've heard you ask dozens of folks that question
and crossed my fingers that you would not ask it if me. Um, one
thing that I think is important to this not maybe not that I
wish you would have asked me but one thing that I think is
important to consider, as I like last thought here is everyone
that we're talking about whether it is the folks that we agree
with or the folks that we don't. Everyone that we're talking
about is human first. They are people they are if you if you
have a spiritual bent as I occasionally do, they're
manifestations of the Divine, they are an interaction with
God. So if we treat each other with even a fraction of the
respect that we treat, institutions and religions and
we'll all be in a better place. And I think I think everything,
everything that I've said or that I would want to say boils
down to I'm human first. I am human more than anything else?
That's really all you need to know about me just treat me like
another person. Treat me like I have feelings. Treat me with
kindness. And that's all I ask of you. Although, while I'm
saying that I did have I did have another, I did have another
answer for this, I realized one of the questions I get asked a
lot is, and it's not really a question, it's when somebody
messes up a pronoun, or when somebody makes a mistake, with
my name or something like that. There's always this big apology.
And primarily, it's because people feel uncomfortable, they
feel like they've been assaulted. They, they want to
make sure with the best of intentions, that they haven't
hurt my feelings. And what I will always say to that, and
this is, this is personal for me, it doesn't work for
everyone, but it is personal for me that, in general, if you make
a mistake, correct it and move on. It's sort of one of the
cores of DevOps to like, fail fast. Do the same thing with
pronouns do the same thing. With people's dead names, fail fast,
make their make that mistake, when you called me She say,
oops, they can continue on. Like, you don't have to
apologize. You don't have to cry about it. I'm not going to
correct you every time because not my job. But just do it
quickly. It's okay. It's not an offense, it's not a problem.
Just keep going because we all make those mistakes. I as a as a
person who has difficult pronouns for people have messed
up other people's pronouns, we all do it. It's just about
acknowledging it apologizing and moving on. So that's, I think
that's a good a good takeaway from this.
Jason Baum: All said, I, AB I really appreciate you coming on
the podcast. And, and thank you for opening up and being
vulnerable to share your experiences.
AB Walker: Thanks for having me.
Jason Baum: And thank you for listening to this episode of the
humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this episode The
way I always do encouraging you to join the DevOps Institute
community today to get access to even more great resources just
like this one. Let's keep this conversation going, shall we?
Join me in the wild the DevOps in the wild community forum at
Community dot DevOps institute.com. Until next time,
stay safe, stay healthy, and most of all, stay human, live
long and prosper.
Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of
DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get
access to even more great resources like this. Until next
time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself.
You belong
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