Hello and welcome to Matt Matern Unites and Heals America, Max Sloves sitting in for Matt Matern. Today we're speaking with Carolyn Dennett, a former consultant for Shell Oil Company. Welcome, Carolyn.

Hi, Max.

So, Carolyn, you recently came out publicly against your former client Shell Oil, and their lack of action on environmental and climate issues. Let's, let's start at the beginning here. Tell us a little bit about your role as a consultant for Shell Oil and how you got into the area of being a consultant for show.

Yeah, thanks, Max. So it all really started back in 2011. In the aftermath of the Deepwater Horizon disaster in the Gulf of Mexico, you know, where we had considerable loss of life 11 fatalities, and just millions of barrels of oil pumping into the pumping into the Gulf of Mexico, Shell really took a look at the process safety, performance and thought, well, actually, you know, what, that could have been us. I mean, it wasn't it was BP, but you know, it could have been any one of the major players drilling at the time.

And they really wanted some way of understanding, you know, what is the what's the mindset at the operational frontline? You know, what are those behaviors? What are the values, you know, what are we really kind of aiming for with our own safety performance. So they thought that a survey would be a really good way of kind of measuring what's going on at the frontline. So we were approached via a management consultancy, to design a process safety culture survey.

And I had considerable surveying expertise, my company's kind of like traditional social and market research agency. But we knew nothing about the oil and gas industry. But that didn't really matter, because they had technical expertise, their side, we brought the kind of like behavioral understanding and surveying expertise. So we were invited to design a process safety culture survey, to pilot it, and to kind of like get things going, which we, which we did in 2011, and 2012.

And then we just thought, you know, that'll be it, they'll take it in house, or they'll give it to some other big agency, but they really valued what we had, what we'd done, they really liked the analytics, they liked the fact that our survey really produced quite hard hitting results, which helped management feel uncomfortable about the process safety performance, and that was the aim. So they invited us to kind of work with them ongoing across their global footprint really for for the next 11 years.

So when you first started producing reports for show there was a sense that someone was listening.

Oh, absolutely. There really was there was a big drive for process safety. And by process safety, you know, they mean, basically keeping it in the pipe. So Shell safety ambition, across the globe is to do no harm, so no harm to people and no leaks. And really by leaks, I mean, you know, no gas leaks, no oil spills, no oil leaks, no explosions, no fires.

So, you know, by serving their own employees and contractors working at site, so not, you know, not in the offices, but really out there, on the rigs in the plants in the kind of refining facilities. It's really understand what was going on. So yeah, definitely people were listening. There was quite a drive for process safety, because everyone knew the consequences of what had happened for BP and Deepwater Horizon.

What? What sort of, did you did you observe any differences between because what, let me rephrase that. So Shell, BP, Chevron, these are massive corporations. And it's somewhat ironic that the best analogy you could give to a corporation like like this, of this size and scale, in terms of effecting change is that they are like oil tankers, like the ability to turn an oil tanker is a kind of a gargantuan task.

Oil tankers have to map out their turns miles ahead of time, because there's just so much inertia. So my question is, what's sort of did you observe differences in culture in terms of the boots on the ground operational level? And the higher up management level, you can have like an oil rig, you'd have a refinery and corporate offices that are sometimes continents away. What sort of observations What did you experience in terms of any potential differences that might be relevant?

Yeah, well, actually, yeah, that was one of the points of the surveys, actually, in the assessments was to kind of like be able to give a complete diagnostic of the health of that safety culture in that organization. And there were gaps, you know, there's gaps in perception for sure, you know, so people at the frontline may perceive things are being done one way, and that may not be the way that top management perceive it's been done.

And, in fact, the way that middle management perceive things have been done. So there is definitely gaps in perception, and part of the outcome of the of the assessments we were doing was to close those gaps, you know, to help help people in different parts of the organization, you know, understand where the differences in perception were, where the differences in performance were, so that we could have a, you know, a safety culture that was kind of complete and consistent, you know, rather than sort of, like, disjointed in places.

So, so we were, you know, we were doing that quite successfully, and there was, you know, at times real steps made to make improvements, you know, and that's not my criticism of my criticism, isn't that, you know, they were ignoring the results, it's more, you know, what, they're the inherent nature of their business now, that, you know, that is, that's a big risk, it's a huge, you know, the whole point of safety assessments is to understand where your hazards are, you know, and assess those hazards and calculate the risk of something going catastrophic, be wrong, and what the consequences are.

And I just think where, in terms of, you know, particularly around climate change, and environmental impacts, then that they're not doing that. So in some respects, you know, even though on an operational level, they may be making improvements in terms of preventing harm to workers, and trying to prevent leaks and spills. You know, they're certainly not doing that on the macro level.

I guess that was going to be my next question is that protection of worker safety and protection of the environment are? Well, they will often overlap. But they're often treated as really distinct efforts, distinct goals. And so I was curious about the extent to which, in in your work, consulting, that the two were the two goals were really coextensive, or they they diverged at all? If that was something.

Yeah, absolutely. So actually, it's quite hard to get people to focus on process safety, you know, so keeping in the pipe, traditionally, you know, safety measures and safety goals have been around, preventing harm to to workers. And that's the default position. You know, if you just asked someone tell us about safety performance in your organization, they would immediately start thinking about, you know, how many people have been injured, or whether we've had a fatality, you know, that's really the natural place for people to think about safety.

Relatively speaking, process, safety is a much newer concept, although it has been around for decades, it's really only been, you know, in the kind of forefront, probably for the last 10 or 15 years. So you really have to help people to focus on what we mean by by process safety, you know, to sort of think about that every action that they take has has a consequence, you know, whether that's someone who's a maintenance fitter or operator, you know, they really do have to think about those, those those things, and they need training.

You know, they need training along that those lines as well, you know, people need to understand what process safety means, what safety means, what the expectations are, what the requirements from the organization are, you know, and what are the positive behaviors that ensure that there's a good safety performance?

Right. And I imagine that that's hard when the goal and purpose of each day's work is sometimes defined very singularly to get petroleum out of the Earth into a refining process. I know oftentimes, you're dealing with engineers who are very, it could be very brilliant minds, but very pragmatic and in privilege efficiency in achieving a particular goal.

And if something does not dovetail with, with the achievement of that goal, with the efficiency of achieving that goal, it makes no sense. I think that's something we could talk about a little more in the next segment. Let's take a break now. This is Max Sloves, I'm speaking with Carolyn Dennett and on Matt Matern’s Unite and Heal America. We'll be back in just a moment.

As you may know, your host Matt Matern of Unite and Heal America is also the founder of Matern Law Group, their team of experienced employment consumer and environmental attorneys are dedicated to leveling the playing field by giving everyone access to the highest quality legal representation contact 844-MLG-4YOU, that's 844-MLG-4YOU or 844-654-4968. 844-654-4968.

Wll, this is Max Sloves sitting in for Matt Matern on Matt Matern’s Unite and Heal America. You're speaking today with Carolyn Dennett, former consultant for Shell Oil. And Carolyn, in the last segment, we had talked about the mindset of some of the very bright minds that are often working in the petroleum industry, but how difficult it can be sometimes to get them to think about separate simultaneous goals.

In terms of one goal being to move petroleum, the other goal be to maximize safety and environmental protection. And when those don't feed into each other in sometimes one can inhibit the other. There can be some cognitive disconnect for for the boots on the ground. What were some of the things you observed in in that sense when working in the petroleum industry?

Yeah, absolutely. Right. Max is a it's certainly an observation that we made. So there's a couple of things there, actually. So I would say that kind of like safety is a bit of a disrupter. Because the kind of the focus that the straight line really is production, right, you know, people, people go to work to produce something in this instance, and the company that's there, no, that's the reason for being is to produce, in this case, oil and gas, you know, so so there's a kind of straight line that people walk, you know, which is to just produce and produce and produce.

And then there's safety that comes in, particularly process safety, because that's a little bit more of a difficult concept. And it kind of disrupts the workflow, in some respects, deliberately, you know, it's deliberately there to disrupt and make people stop and think about what they're doing, so that they actually do things safely. So the battle is all the tension has always been safety versus production, but it isn't actually safety versus production. It's just safe production, you know, that's what we that's what we have to have.

And that's the mindset, we have to create. And I think one of the difficulties when we talk about culture, you know, is culture is about people. And it's about relationships, and it's about conversations and engagement and communication, and leadership, you know, but most of the time you write what you've just described, you know, engineers, technicians, fitters, you know, they're very kind of system focused, when they're at work, I'm not saying they're system focus people, but in that job, you know, so quite often, even when the, the thing that needs improving in the culture, it's actually something around relationships, or safety, leadership or communication.

Actually, it's like the, they feel that the solution is let's put a system fix in, you know, we'll just, we'll just tweak the system, because that'll make a sofa, or, let's write another procedure, or we'll put a barrier in, or we'll put a different control in, and let's see if we can, you know, systemize, this, and that's, you know, you can put all the systems in place that you'd like, and, of course, it's important to have good systems in place, and they have to be robust, but actually, those systems are only as good as the people who are into interacting with those systems.

So we need to make sure that people are aware, you know, trained, understand can stop the job can feel empowered to speak up, if they feel this something that's not not right, you know, if they feel uncomfortable about something, if they, you know, if they see something that think, hang on, you know, this isn't safe. And, you know, that's that that can be quite difficult.

And that that takes time that takes doesn't take loads of time, but it takes some time to, you know, get people on board with that way of thinking and really, that's, that's, you know, one of the key elements of that is safety, leadership, you know, leaders have to be self aware, they have to understand that even their nonverbal communication can sometimes have an influence on how people behave, and you know, what they have in their minds.

And so it is quite complex, but I, I my observations over the last 10 years, it's actually you know, what, culture is quite easy to change. It doesn't even in an industry like the oil and gas industry, you know, it doesn't have to take years. It can it can happen really quickly with the right inputs, and the right drivers and if we take away the barriers that prevent, you know, good culture from Oh, yeah, from growing?

So my How long did you work as a consultant for Shell Oil?

Yeah. So you that was adequate times get pretty pretty broad range of data points in terms of assessing a company and its culture. What was the tipping point for you where you realized it was it was time for you to change course? Was there a discrete incident? Or was it? Was it more of a steady accumulation of experience with the company? Or was there something else?

Yeah, so really, I mean, my experience with the company generally has been quite positive, I've worked some great people. And in terms of their focus on safety, you know, it's as good as anyone else in in the industry, you know, they've had some quite high standards, I think, for me, over a period of time, well, actually, from the very start, I was never very comfortable working in the fossil fuel industry, you know, not so much, perhaps from a climate change perspective, but from a pollution point of view, you know, there'd been a lot of bad incidents, stemming from the fossil fuel industry, and they didn't seem to be particularly learning from those mistakes.

But this was an opportunity to, you know, support, more safe working. But over time, I think as my awareness of, you know, climate change, and the ecological crises that we face increased, you know, I started to feel uncomfortable, even more so working in the fossil fuel industry. And even though I told myself, you know, yeah, but I'm doing good, it has value.

I'm helping to prevent harm to people to an environment, you know, and so you go on kind of justifying these things to yourself. But I guess over time, it really might, you know, probably three years ago, I really started to understand the science of climate change much more and understood, you know, the looming crises, and I'd say, today, we're in that we're in those crises, you know, we're experiencing climate change, it's not something bad, that's going to happen in the future.

It's something bad that's happening to us right now. And I guess as time went on, and I saw that, you know, Shell, we're continuing to seek new licenses for oil and gas extraction. So not just seeing through, you know, what we already what has already licensed but seeking to expand their extraction, and their pipeline. expansion programs well, and I think just towards the end of last year, I started to think, you know, as much as I love my job, and I have left my job, I've, I've loved working on safety culture, with Shell.

I just cannot go on supporting an industry that that is ignoring the biggest hazards and risks of all, which is, you know, where we are, in terms of global overheating and ecological collapse. And so I just, you know, the internal conflict was just getting more and more burdensome. And I think I just thought, yeah, you know, the last project that we did, which ended in March, I really thought, yeah, this will be the last, this will be the last job. And I'm, and I'm gonna go.

Yeah, it's been interesting to see over the last 10,20, 30, 40 years. So there's been a bit of a shift in our discourse, I think it's like a tectonic shift hasn't been small in terms of a focus on on pollution as something that is a local point source issue that can have external impacts. And now that that that's really not the dominant dialogue.

Now, it's not the dominant conversation, the dominant conversation is climate change, this is all enveloping blanket issue that cannot be escaped by moving further away from the point source. And I think there are better there are benefits and drawbacks to that that shift because point source pollution is still a grave issue for for those affected mediately. by it, but But yeah, there's been a lot of effort by by Shell and others to me, I think greenwashing is thrown around a lot.

I remember when British Petroleum changed their logo to a green and yellow, sunflower Starburst logos. And Chevron has videos of Eagle's landing on pieces of wood that they set out to help them nest it's a that's a huge industry itself. Did you feel like any of the work you were doing was was it was part of that sort of superficial effort? Or did you feel like you're more sort of inside the At the machinery of the corporation, and, and at least attempting to affect change at that level.

Yeah, no, that's right. So I was never kind of working on a kind of brand messaging or, you know, kind of marketing or even internally, you know, it was very focused on on operational safety. But I think what became really apparent is, which was another kind of tipping point for me was, you know, we, we have surveyed 20,000 plus employees and contractors over the last 10 years, probably somewhere in the order of half a million to a million words of open feedback that we've collected through the, through the, through the types of surveys that we do, and very little mention of climate change, or climate change risks, or, you know, any of those things.

I'd say less than 3%. And that didn't get any, any more, as time went on, you know, that that hasn't like, suddenly, in the last three years become part of the dialogue. So again, it was just a suggestion to me that all all the messages that you see coming out of Shell, you know, around perhaps renewables or, you know, transition or net zero, you know, I think they're very busy talking about that in the in the PR team, and the branding and marketing communications team.

But that's not a reality on the front line. You know, nobody is really talking about that. So that suggests to me that this kind of transition doesn't feel very real. And from what I know about, you know, organizational cultures, you know, if you want something to change, you really have to bring your people along with you. And I just don't think that that is that that's happening, which, you know, is bitterly disappointing. Actually.

There's a sense of urgency for change right now. And if the captain of that oil tanker has not started to steer the ship in a different direction, despite what they're saying, then we're really behind the ball. We'll come back in just a moment. This is Max Sloves, I'm sitting in for Matt Matern on Matt Matern Unites and Heals America, speaking with Carolyn Dennett we’ll return in a moment. Thank you.

As you may know, your host Matt Matern of Unite and Heal America is also the founder of Matern Law Group, their team of experienced employment consumer and environmental attorneys are dedicated to leveling the playing field by giving everyone access to the highest quality legal representation contact 844 MLG for you, that's 844-ML-4YOU, or 84465449688446544968.

Hello, this is Max Sloves. I'm sitting in for Matt Matern, on Matt Matern Unites and Heals America, speaking today with Carolyn Dennett, former consultant, or no, I'm sorry, let's say you're still a consultant. You used to consult for Shell Oil.

And you recently came out and publicly started discussing issues that you have with the company and the direction it's moving in terms of action related to the environment and climate change. And one of the things that I understand you've been involved with is called extinction rebellion. Can you tell us a little bit about that? And your involvement with it?

Yeah, so extinction rebellion. You know, this is quite a big movement in the UK. And I understand it's global as well. And I very much, you know, very concerned with taking action on climate change and the ecological crisis as well. So my, I started to pay more attention to greenhouse gas emissions, probably about five, five or six years ago, but still didn't really think that, you know, we were in such big trouble that I know, and, Stan, that we are, that three years ago, I went to a talk, actually, by being given by extinction rebellion, which was really a walkthrough of all the science that was out there that was being created by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, you know, the other, you know, World Wildlife Fund.

You know, all the organizations that are looking at, kind of like the climate, global heating, nature and wildlife. And I was, you know, and I thought I knew something about greenhouse gas emissions and what they meant for us, but, you know, I was, I was really shocked by what I heard about the science that's been out there actually, for quite some some years. And I think it was from that point, I thought, actually, you know, you know, we're really in trouble here.

And I think when I first saw extinction rebellion on the scene, you know, I probably thought, we're not in that kind of danger, you know, like, we're not what they're talking about extinction. You know, that seems a bit extreme. But actually, when you've, you know, when you kind of see, see the science and you look at that correlation between, you know, co2 emissions and the concentrations of co2 in the atmosphere and And, and the direct correlation with the increase in global average average temperatures, you know, you start to realize what's going on here.

So you know that that had a, that had a real impact on me. And it was probably from that, that point on that the real discomfort of working in the industry because we don't we haven't just done work for Shell we have done work for other petrochemical companies as well. You know, I started thinking, Yeah, this is this is this is not great. And actually one of the final tipping points for me leaving I mean, as well as, you know, Shell seemingly not on the grind, doing what they say they're going to do.

You know, I don't see any sign of them transitioning and they're still like, say, you know, expanding extraction efforts, I was I haven't seen a clip of a video of a extinction, rebellion action helped Shells huddle corporate headquarters in London, and somebody was just holding up a sign saying insiders wanted, you know, do you know something about, you know, Shell's double talk on climate change. And I thought, okay, I know who, you know who I can speak to about this.

So I did, I did reach out to an organization called truth teller dot life. And, you know, they're very keen to speak to people who've got, you've come from or still in the oil and gas industry. So I spoke to them and, you know, told them that I was going to leave and that I would quite like to do that in a public way to have some impact and get the message and start a conversation. You know, and they said that they would support support me to do that which they have done.

It's, I think it's a much more, I mean, maybe people listen to you, and they they understand right away what what a tremendous move that is, if they don't, I think it's important to discuss what what a significant action that is, in because when we're personally when we're personally invested in something you put a decade of your life into, into doing work that you we believe was was a benefit to this company, and a benefit that with externalities, a benefit that would be helpful to its impact on worker safety and environmental safety?

What? What was some of the thought process that went into making that decision? I mean, was it was were you just sure that this was the right thing to do? Or? Because there are costs and benefits? There's financial costs, significant chunk of your business I imagined?

Was this consulting for petroleum corporations, gas and oil. And then Pat, possible I as a lawyer, I don't even know what the legal liability might be. Can you talk about just some of the steps that you went through in in deciding to take action in this one?

Yeah, you're I actually, you know, it's been quite, quite hard. It's been a hard decision. I say, I've loved my job. It I know, it's had value. I know, it's had value, particularly for the people who are frontline operators, because it's given them a voice, you know, a trusted voice to tell it tell us, you know, what, what needs improving, that we can then convey that to management. So I know it's hard real value.

And I feel really quite sad, actually, you know, it's been difficult. I mean, sad, because it's part of my identity, you know, this is who I've been for the last 10 years, you know, I've been Shells, safety culture, consultant, and someone who's, you know, had a lot of involvement with their operations. I've made some really good working relations with with people there. So it's quite hard actually, to say, I'm not going to be that person any longer.

And actually, yes, sad for, you know, just just sad in some respects, that they have lost an ally in terms of the drive for improved safety. You know, we and I was worried that people there that I've worked with with feel a sense of betrayal, you know, that I betrayed them. And to some extent, I feel I have, you know, that's that's a real feeling.

Because they, they have had an ally on the outside, you know, we've always been completely independent and we've spoken as an independent consultant and that's probably feels quite difficult for me and for them, you know, that that's gone, that relationship is over, and that they don't have that ally on the outside any longer and I do feel quite I feel guilty about that.

But you know, you have to sleep at night and you have to you can't go on having conflict with yourself over the values that you hold dear and and the values that you see apparent in an organization that you're working with. And I think that's really what happened, you know, Our values have drifted apart.

And I, I just think it's such a shame, you know, I, I would have gladly have stayed working alongside Michelle, if I thought for one moment that they were genuinely transitioning, that they had, you know, real ambition to reach net zero as quickly as I could, because I would have liked to have supported a safe transition, but I, I, I just truly don't believe that they are making any effort at all. In fact, they say, you know, we're gonna carry on, you know, drilling and producing for decades to come in the face of all, you know, all the facts that we know that we have to stop to say, even the International Energy Agency says, We have to stop No, not not stop producing, but stop seeking new sources of oil and gas.

So it's been, it's been really difficult up to including the day that I that I sent the emails to 1,400, you know, workers and, and the the executive committee, it felt sad, you know, and I understand that people in the organizations across the sector, you know, may feel quite angry about what I've done, because it may feel like I'm trying to shame them.

And I'm not that I totally get that if you've spent 30 or 40 years in the oil and gas industry doing a tough job in high risk environments that a lot of us just frankly, wouldn't want to do. You know, we'd rather sit in an office somewhere, you know, I get that if someone then criticizes that work, that can feel like, you know, like a criticism of you. And, you know, I don't think we should be shaming those people, I think people have been, they can be proud of the work that they've done, you know, the oil and gas industry have helped us develop, you know, we were able to live a life of relative comfort that we wouldn't have done otherwise.

But that time is that time for oil and gas energy is over, you know, and we have to look for alternatives. But I understand that people may not have welcomed the message, but perhaps what it's done is opened a conversation. And that's what I actually really wanted to do. Max actually was to start that conversation that I wasn't hearing, you know, that even if people at the, you know, in the canteen just said, Oh, can you believe what that woman did?

You know, I don't agree, but you know, it's a conversation that they weren't having before. And it's colleague goes, well, maybe she's got a point. And that, you know, that enables them to discuss climate change and my reasons for doing it. And then I'll be very happy that that that conversation was started.

Yeah, I sometimes a jolt to the system. It can can be so effective. It could because especially in a corporation that big, I imagine. You've got a lot of smart people. And it's really easy to find the counter arguments I just off the top of my head, I imagine some could easily say Well, listen, this is this is not a production side issue.

This is a demand side issue that people still want oil, people still want what they need, you'll still need oil. So it's it's an obligation to seek out new sources as long as that demand is there. And maybe this is the job that will just kind of disrupt the dogma and get people to say, well, you know, what, what are the options, and I'm hoping we can talk a little bit more about that.

And the next segment. This is Max Sloves of speaking with Carolyn Dennett, former consultant for Shell Oil, and Oracle only worked with with a number of gas and oil corporations who stepped away from that work and done so publicly. And we'll talk a little bit more about that.

As you may know, your host Matt Matern of Unite and Heal America is also the founder of Matern Law Group, their team of experienced employment consumer and environmental attorneys are dedicated to leveling the playing field by giving everyone access to the highest quality legal representation contact 844-MLG-4YOU, that's 844-MLG-4YOU or 844-654-4968. 844-654-4968.

Well, this is Max Sloves. I'm sitting in for Matt Matern, on the Matt Matern Unites and Heals America. Even as I say that I'm speaking with Carolyn Dennett worked as a consultant for shale oil for many years. And when we talk about it just just the name of this show, Unite and Heal America But we're this this show so often deals with environmental issues, which transcend national borders.

And so it's, it's essentially that we often find ourselves speaking with people from outside the United States precisely because the the environment knows no boundaries. And there has to be more of a collective voice beyond nationality on these issues. Here. In the last segment, we were talking about sort of the moment and the consequences of stopping the work that you were doing for Shell.

And sort of the courage it takes for anyone to shift course, and move in a different direction, especially when that shifting course can come at personal cost, both in terms of personal relationships, financial stability, there's so many, so many forces in our lives, that can make change difficult, but you decided to make a change, and, and do so very publicly.

What what are some of the what are some of the results that you that you hope to see, from this point forward? What what are some of the things that what are some of the changes that the oil and gas industry could make?

What are some of the actions that other individuals can take? Or not speaking in terms of individuals? What are other actions that you see as being effective, that groups of people, whether they be companies or collectives of individuals can take moving forward?

Yeah, well, even there's lots, there's so much to do, isn't there? I mean, I guess, you know, ultimately, what we need is that those companies are currently you know, powerful and producing oil and gas for for energy is to start to rapidly transition, you know, that's one solution, isn't it, I mean, Another solution is to is to abandon that model, you know, and say that we'll all have community based energy production, I mean, that, you know, with renewables, I mean, that's a, you know, that's a different, that's a whole different conversation, to be had that, I think, you know, if you look at the likes of Shell.

You know, they are well placed to lead us into a safer future, you know, they have financial capital, you know, they have lots of backing, they have lots of investment, from the financial institutions, and for big pension funds, etc. You know, so they have that they have human resource, you know, they have the necessary human resource, and they also have massive technological capability.

So they have the three key ingredients that really could, you know, accelerate a change in the energy mix very quickly, if they, So, wish to do so. And I think, you know, whatever pressure can be brought upon those companies to make that change, and to make it genuinely, then I think we need to be doing that.

So we need to do all that we can now I suppose some of the ways to do that is to not, you know, for financial institutions to say that they're not going to support them, like they have been, they're not going to invest in the way that they have been, unless they do start making, you know, very notable efforts to transition. You know, I mean, a lot of the oil and gas industry, so a lot of in a lot of countries in the world have huge subsidies from their governments, you know, so there's, there's political power, that can be can be brought, you know, and, yeah, you know, and kind of, yeah, so, so that's two really big, big, big things that can be brought.

And, and also, I don't know what it's like in the US, but certainly in the in the UK, I mean, the big oil and gas companies, they don't pay any tax, either, you know, so there's kind of like three, three big things that could be brought to bear that would, I'm sure, encourage the oil and gas industry to change to change direction. So, you know, that's something that can be done. And in terms of people's own power, you know, if you're taking, if you have a bank account, take a look at that bank account, and, and ask questions about how much money that that banking company is investing in fossil fuels.

You know, a lot of people have a pension, you know, ask the same questions. And if you're not happy, you know, change your pension provider or start demanding that they invest in, you know, a future worth having, you know, so there's things that people can do, and that's individually and collectively. I don't know, I think there's a good example from I think it was New York city workers, you know, they campaigned to have the pension fund divested from fossil fuel, and they succeeded, you know, that was two I think, a couple of two or three years ago.

So you know, there is there is people power and and I think you're right in saying you know that there is demand and there's need, but what there is demand for you know, is for the lights to be kept on. And for us to be able to travel, you know, and for us to be able to be warm. But, but now we know that doesn't have to just come from oil and gas, you know, that can come up come from other sources of energy as well whether that, you know, renewables, whether that's actually, you know, building infrastructure, like houses that are better equipped to withstand cold and extreme heat, you know, whether that's because it's well insulated, or just because of the way it's designed.

So there's lots we can be doing, actually to change the infrastructure of our world that is going to be less impactful in terms of that macro CO2 Going into the atmosphere, but also, that's going to have less detrimental impact on on nature and wildlife. You know, and, and just to kind of hold biodiversity, you know, that the variety of creatures that we share the world with?

So, you know, I think there's a lot that people can can do. We have people do have power, both as individuals and collectively. So I think we need to help the oil and gas industry to see that, you know, we there is no point in creating endless amounts of energy, if the cost of that is that we don't have a world that we can actually exist in for for the decades ahead.

That's so true. There are a lot of carrots and sticks out there for really, and I feel like discussions of green investment funds were met with a quite a bit of condescension 10 or 20 years ago, and it does seem like the viability of of those funds, or the attitude towards that that type of investment has changed dramatically, that didn't our green investment is something seen as profitable.

Which the way we're our collective mindset is that that's something we still have to negotiate is the privilege of profit. And it's, it's interesting, really quite interesting to hear you talk about the resources that these oil and gas companies have in terms of positioning themselves to be to be able to guide the the next iteration of energy production, that they can be first to market precisely because they have the resources to pivot a little faster. already kind of torture that the metaphor of the oil tanker being slow to turn.

But you know, I guess, another awkward metaphorically, it could be, like, like a McLaren race car, you know, it's, it's got so much invested in it being a high performance machine that it can pivot faster. And with a little be a little more nimble, and ways that are maybe counterintuitive. What what are some of the groups that you're continuing to work with?

What are some of the some of the groups you're working with, or resources that you would point people to, if they want to think more, learn more about some of the things that you've been involved with?

Yeah, so you know, in terms of understanding climate change, and the science behind that, you know, I mean, admittedly, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, reports are quite weighty, there's a lot to go through. But you know, there's a lot of there are a lot of organizations out there, front of the earth, you know, very good at distilling kind of that information, easily, I would say, extinction rebellion, I've done a great job in in, you know, capturing the essence of those of those reports and keeping on track with where, where the science is.

So I think there's things that people can can do, can do there. I mean, there are lots of groups out there who are, you know, really focused on on trying to, you know, trying to get money that is invested in the fossil fuel to either be invested differently in the green, you know, in the green tech or in renewables. So I think people can, you know, take it, take a look at those.

But I think, you know, start by asking the questions of your own finances, and, you know, and see, because I think if enough people start asking and demanding for something else, an alternative to investing in fossil fuels, you know, the market will change, the market will change and I've already seen it last week.

I went to a responsible investor conference in London, and it was quite incredible to see just how many you know, how many people are are looking at the alternatives and trying to understand that we, you know, we need to have investments that are going to support a Livable Future, you know, and not ones that are going to, you know, make the make the future very, very short and difficult.

The two sides of the question what? Where's the money? Where's the money coming from? And where's the money going to? We ask ourselves that question. Sometimes we can. And we give ourselves good answers we can affect some interesting changes in the world.

Carolyn, thank you so much for being with us today. It was really delightful and informative to speak with you. And, and I'm inspired by the courageous action that you took and and really wish you all the best moving forward.

Many thanks, Max. It's been a real real pleasure and a privilege. Thank you.

This is Max Sloves sitting in for Matt Matern on Matern Unite and Heal America. Thank you so much everyone.

As you may know, your host Matt Matern of Unite and Heal America is also the founder of Matern Law Group, their team of experienced employment consumer and environmental attorneys are dedicated to leveling the playing field by giving everyone access to the highest quality legal representation contact 844-MLG-4YOU, that's 844-MLG-4YOU or 844-654-4968. 844-654-4968.