You're listening to KABC 790. This is Matt Matern, your host of Unite and Heal America. And we've got a great guest on the program today. Dr. Amgad Elgowainy, doctor is a senior scientist and the leader of the electrification and infrastructure group at the Argonne National Laboratory. Doctor, pleasure to have you on the program. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me.

Tell us a little bit about the listeners about the Argonne National Laboratory. My understanding is it's back in the Chicago area, and it's funded by the Department of Energy. Tell us a little bit about the work that's being done at that laboratory.

Sure, you're right on the ground in the one of the 17 National Labs supported by the Department of Energy Impact argon Z, all this of the 17 National Labs. at Argonne, we develop technologies relevant to your interest here, battery chemistry, if you will sell the catalysts, fueling methods, among others, we test technologies. Also in our labs, we have some significant testing facilities.

We support developing codes and standards for safe deployments of new technologies. In this case, it will be electrification, whether it is electric vehicles, or hydrogen or fuel cells. We conduct a modeling and analysis like we do in my group examining future technologies with respect to cost, performance, environmental performance, necessary necessarily supporting infrastructure.

We identify key coastal drivers performance drivers, what r&d can make the biggest impact or blanket technology closer to markets. We support demonstration projects, we collaborate heavily with the industry. We help federal and state governments to develop roadmaps, targets identify opportunities, both near term or longer term to achieve their goals.

Whether it is energy security, or better environmental emissions, addressing issues like climate change and air pollutants.

Well, that's that's quite a portfolio. Tell us so a little bit about just maybe how many people work it just the Argonne National Laboratory there even has slightly over 3000 staff and researchers large portfolio of science and energy, as I mentioned testing facilities, and we have in the energy system division where I belong. We have over 300 Researchers covering different aspects of energy systems.

Wow. Well, I had some familiar with argon growing up because a friend of my parents was a scientist who worked at Argonne. And we used to sometimes have family picnics out and there, the grounds there surrounding there was a big park that surrounded the laboratory.

So I have fond memories of the place. Tell us a little bit about the work that you're doing in the space related to hydrogen and using hydrogen to to help power our economy.

Sure, So hydrogen has been a stronger focus for us since the early 2000s. In fact, dates even before that, among our portfolio of examining different energy systems, the original focus was on transportation. So we look at the different energy supply systems, the powertrain technologies, I mean, what can be deployed in what vehicle class or application to make the significant impact on achieving certain targets again, the targets could be energy security, it could be energy efficiency, it could be environmental targets, among others.

So we cover a large portfolio of energy systems in particular for transportation, we look at hydrogen and fuel cells, we look at battery electric vehicles we look at biofuels, we look at other forms of energy coming from different sources such as biomass renewable sources, nuclear sources, even waste, some waste energy forms could be converted to be provide a useful energy supply to transportation or other sectors. In particular, we cover different aspects.

So, one aspect is the economics of making the hydrogen delivering the hydrogen to the NGOs for bases, it will be basically getting hygiene onboard Abbeyfield to be used in a fuel cell to power the wheels to deliver a service. The service in a light duty vehicle could be like miles driven from origin to destination or for freight applications, it could be per ton mile it could be per passenger mile for some public transit form.

And among others, we look at the economics, we look also at the environmental where hydrogen comes from is important. And there are different sources for hygiene today and the potential of our PDS truck energy sources to produce hydrogen. What does it mean? And usually, if you seek a clean energy supply, whether for hygiene or others, usually it comes at a premium.

So we try to evaluate what is that premium. And we try also to evaluate what benefit you'll get, again, is that costs or the premium you pay for the clean energy, so that it is a cost benefit analysis. And we understand if it costs you this you get these benefits, whether it is cleaner air, higher air quality, improved air quality, or reduce greenhouse gases, among others.

Let me ask you, I know the Biden administration had put forward a target, which they called an earth shot goal to create hydrogen at $1 per kilo, where are we at in that process? And are you and the Argonne National Lab involved in in helping meet that target?

Yeah, I believe you're talking about the hydrogen air through shots. And so that was announced around June of last year, I believe slightly over a year. Now, that sets our target to achieve hydrogen production at $1 per one kilogram in one decade, and equals 111 Basically, and this is a target to be achieved.

And in the process of achieving that target, it requires several things to happen. First, you need to have a supply of a clean energy source, then you need to use it efficiently to produce the hygiene and there will be some equipment there that the cost of that equipment will have also to fit into the $1 per one kilogram levelized cost.

So several things that have to happen in order to realize the hydrogen shop goal of 111 $1 per one kilogram in one decade. And in that decades, there will be some significant scaling has to take place. Usually, as you scale things up, you get the economies of scale. So costs will come down, you develop your supply chain, this will help also the costs come down in addition to R&D development that can improve the manufacturing improve the efficiency, among others.

So so this is a goal for the hygiene chart. And this is a pathway between now to reach that goal in one day. And you might have seen the announcements of the hydrogen hub with support from the federal government to develop houses that is, I believe, $8 billion there in the big L.

There is also $1 billion for the electrolyzer manufacturing there is another half billion dollar for looking at crude Article materials are looking at things related to recycling and sustainable manufacturing. So this should help the hydrogen chart achieve its goals within one decade.

So what what progress maybe had been made in the previous decade? And kind of what's the trajectory as far as the cost currently, where it was maybe a decade ago, so we kind of get some perspective as to whether this is a viable goal. And we will probably take that question up after after the break.

But I did want to kind of tee that up for you and say what work has been done by by your laboratory in the last decade that's kind of made progress, I assume, in bringing the price of hydrogen down and kind of what are the things that you're working on right now that are going to have us meet that irshad goal of $1 per kilogram in a decade.

So you're listening to Unite and Heal America and KABC 790 And this is Matt Matern, your host we'll be back in just a minute with Dr. Amgad Elgowainy, sorry about that doctor. And so stay tuned. Go listen to KABC 790.

This is Matt Matern, your host and I've got a very great guest on the program. Dr. Amgad Elgowainy on and of the Argonne National Laboratory and Doctor you've specialized in working on hydrogen and electrification.

Can you tell us as I said before the break how the US had been doing in terms of creating hydrogen and what costs maybe a decade ago? And how what's the trajectory to get us to $1 per kilo in the next decade? And maybe where it was 10 years ago? And where to where you see it going in the next maybe three to five years? What are the kinds of technological developments that you think are most promising?

This is a great question. Thank you. So I'm not sure if I will surprise you to tell you that hydrogen is produced today near $1 per kilogram, although the process for producing the hydrogen at that post is from natural gas. So basically, your reform MFN and natural gas basically strips the carbon out and they produce the hydrogen and the you'll see stronger correlation between the hydrogen costs production costs with the feedstock costs in this case natural gas.

So in the US, we have abundant of natural gas, especially in certain regions of the country, if you're sourcing natural gas near $4 or less per million Btus you can produce hydrogen today at $1 per kilogram, and for the audience to appreciate what is a kilogram of hydrogen has roughly the same energy in a gallon of gasoline. So, you could think really that we are producing an equivalent of the energy in a gallon of gasoline Eurodollar.

So, so, this is a reasonable very low cost actually very reasonable cost. Of course, the issue there, like for other energy carriers is that hydrogen does not exist in nature, we rely on a primary source in this case natural gas and as we reform the methane and natural gas, we emit co2 and the air shot is looking at a different supply of energy that is clean, that can produce the hydrogen at a competitive costs. And and this is kind of the challenge there.

So what are the pathways other than natural gas, steam ethereally formation to produce hydrogen What are other clean pathways to produce the hydrogen is the question. So one pathway is to source the primary source will come from electricity. Of course, electricity itself is like hydrogen, it is an energy carrier it does not exist in nature. So we need to source it from some primary source the source could be one it could be solar, it could be hydro, could be nuclear, all of these are non carbon sources. That can give you very low carbon or near Zero Carbon Energy supply.

So similar to natural gas to hydrogen, if I can get that electricity low cost by bringing the cost of PV down, for example, when the meltdown or actually sourcing low cost electricity will be key to achieve that $1 per one kilogram of clean hydrogen. The second element there that is important will be the equipment itself is the electrolyzer, so it's applied electricity to split water, use collect hydrogen from the oxygen you produce oxygen or vented, but the hydrogen will be your kind of your energy product and that electrolyzer capital will be important.

Now, you mentioned where we are electrolyzers today are slightly over a million dollar per megawatt. And to get near the dollar per kilogram, we need that capital to come down to below $200 per megawatt. Is that possible? Yes. I mean, again, the production scale now is in the megawatts if you go to the gigawatts and the builds of supply chain and expand your manufacturing economies of scale can get you a long way through Of course, you will need to advance the technology through r&d and through innovation. The last component there will be the utilization of that capital, especially if the capital is significant.

So, how we can utilize the capital investment we know solar and wind are intermittent in nature, how we can utilize the electrical laser, more time so that you could spread the capital or the product in this case, hydrogen will also play into your levelized cost of hydrogen produced. So there are several key factor there that needs to happen.

And the beauty of hydrogen is that it has good synergies with the renewable in particular the intermittent renewables because once you convert the electrons to chemical bond and hydrogen, you can just easily store that and use it at oil across applications.

So hydrogen by itself, it's an EHR can be an immediate energy storage, relatively low cost. So it has really that synergetic role to enable more of the renewable penetration while itself will be a clean energy carrier that could be used, whether for transportation or across other applications. And I am not sure if you will be surprised or not hydrogen is produced at scale today. I mean, we produce more than 10 million metric tons a year. Almost two thirds of it goes for petroleum refining.

So the car you drive and I drive today, without hydrogen will not be possible to refine the oil and they produce the fuel will add the specs needed for the different engines, whether it is cars, or trucks, or airplanes or jet engines. All of these require certain grade of fuel and hydrogen is a key player into making these fuels. The second largest user of hydrogen today is ammonia production, which again is a key ingredient for fertilizer.

So it plays into everything you and I consume. So hydrogen is really kind of already playing a major role in what we do and in our energy system today, but its role can be expanded beyond these current applications. And again, vehicle markets could be one hydrogen for replacing natural gas for process heat and the heating application could be one clean hydrogen, even for refinery and one year like today, but really decarbonize these industries.

Hydrogen for for example, synthetic fuel production, like sometimes you would say, Well, can I electrify an aeroplane perhaps, but it will be indirect so rather than putting a battery on the airplane or even a fuel cell and the hydrogen tank you may use hydrogen today to simplify is compatible liquid hydrocarbon using carbon from the air rather than for underground to synthesize a compatible fuel to use existing engines for example.

So it could play into like death run towards it could be used as a reductant. To produce steel for example, rather than using fall in the blast furnace today, you produce the technology in existence today, actually, and a few plants actually exist in the US using what they call D ri for direct reduction of iron, using hydrogen as a reduction. So if you produce hydrogen clean, you could produce clean steel as well.

So you could see it could play a role across sectors on one side enables more of the clean power on the other side decarbonize transportation, manufacturing industry buildings, I mean, so it could really play that role. The achieving the hydrogen sharp targets will be key to be competitive, and it will be able to penetrate these different energy sectors and applications.

Well, I appreciate that answer. I mean, it's a very comprehensive and I think tells the audience that the potential of hydrogen in so many different areas to help decarbonize our economy. And so I would just kind of maybe go back to the transportation sector in terms of trucks, planes, trains, and what efforts does Argonne have in those areas or is it more indirectly just working on on producing hydrogen atom at a lower cost and the research related to to that?

I tell you what we do and Michael. So of course, we look at the energy supply and demand right we look at resource availability, we look at infrastructure infrastructure for hygiene will be key. I mean, because you want to connect supply and demand and the method you connect to your supply and demand will require especially if you want to use hydrogen at scale, you need really to develop that infrastructure. In many cases, today, hydrogen is produced near where it is used.

However, you will see in areas where you have significant demand, like the Gulf, because half of our refining capacity is in the Gulf, you will see significant hydrogen infrastructure there is 1600 miles of pipeline, there are three major caverns including the largest in the world, for example, you will see several liquefaction plants. So where's the scale exists hydrogen infrastructure investment will follow. And it is kind of scale will be the key developing the scale will be the key for housing infrastructure to evolve and develop over time.

But tell us on the hydrogen hubs that are being developed, how will those work? Well, actually, we're gonna go to our break now. You've been listening to KABC 790. This is Matt Matern, your host of Unite and Heal America. And I've got Dr. Amgad Elgowainy. And He's the senior scientist at Argonne National Laboratories and we'll be right back in just one minute.

You're listening to KABC 790. This is Matt Matern, your host of Unite and Heal America. And we're back talking with Dr. Amgad Elgowainy of the Argonne National Laboratories regarding these hydrogen hubs that are being funded by the government. And Doctor, if you could tell us a little bit more about where that 8 billion is going and what is expected to happen after these hubs are created, or how they're going to be created.

Thank you so much for the questions. This is an exciting time for hydrogen because of the announcement for the hydrogen hubs in the Congress, bipartisan infrastructure laws or BI L, which includes an $8 billion to create at least four hydrogen hubs. And the bill is trying to enable different clean sources to produce hydrogen. So some of these could be similar to what I explained earlier, like the formation of natural gas but rather than letting the carbon go to the atmosphere, you capture it and the storage.

So this is what we call carbon capture and storage or CCS. This will be one pathway really to enabled clean hydrogen so basically use existing technology but captures a carbon and don't let it go to the atmosphere so that you do not contribute to global warming.

The other half is the end, Abell is looking for renewable sources to produce the hydrogen and this will likely be through water electrolysis and technologies like the electrolyzer. polymeric exchanging in Berean, called the pan or alkaline technologies and then the bill is also calling for some nuclear based and the nuclear again is a near zero carbon energy supply.

There can also be a low cost and they fit into how to produce hydrogen lower costs and these produce typical electrolyzer or use what is called the high temperature electrical lasers such as the solid oxide electrolysis cell is or EC and these are somewhat more efficient, they do not rely on electricity alone, you use some electricity and some thermal energy and it could be a very efficient way to produce the hydrogen.

So, these hubs will resource differently in energy supply. And even if it is a fossil supply, like I mentioned, it will ask you that the carbon be captured and this stored back into the ground.

The hubs will also call for a variety of interviews, like I mentioned to you hygiene is not necessarily for refining or ammonia or vehicles it could really be across so the hub the recall some of the housing should be for power generation, some of it will be for transportation, some of it for Decarbonize the industry, for example, steel production. So, I mean, different hubs would have different forecasts to demonstrate not only producing the hydrogen at scale, but also using it at scale.

And let me ask you, what what is the expected amount of hydrogen that should be or could be produced from these four hubs, given that we're at 10 million tonnes of production now, what is it likely to increase to?

So the hubs and they are at least four, but they could be more. And they the minimum scale of hygiene produced and use De Pere hub will be announced recently 50 to 100 metric tons a day. So this will translate and to something like 100. PAGE 50 or 200,000 tonnes a year up to half a million tonnes a year. So it would be some significant like scale that will deploy.

Yeah, that's substantially more than you said that we're at 10 million tonnes is that a day or a year?

Currently, well 10 million tons was a year. So let us say if we say 100 tons per day times, you have 365 days a year. So multiplies outdoors and you are talking about something in the ballpark of actually close to 40,000 tons. So I misspoke earlier. So perhaps it could be 40,000 tons a year.

Okay, well, so a substantial increase in the amount of hydrogen per year should be available to to users. So in terms of the green premium that we had talked about a little bit earlier, this is something that Bill Gates brought up in his book, How to avoid a climate disaster. And I think others have talked about it and written about it as well, which is that differential between what it would cost to kind of use current technology versus maybe a greener solution, and where that is currently in terms of using hydrogen.

And I realize that's a challenging question to ask answer because you've got some hydrogen that is created from natural gas and you got some hydrogen that's created from electricity. They coming off of solar and wind. So maybe we'll just talk about the, the hydrogen that's created by solar and wind and and I like dams and things of that nature hydroelectric projects.

So, I mean, if we look at this, this is another great question. And I believe the key issue for us today, Matt is the business as usual is not sustainable. I mean, we contribute to climate change, actually, we release greenhouse gases into the atmosphere at an increasingly rapid rate. And that business as usual practice, how we source and use our energy in our system in our society is not sustainable.

The difficulty here is that at some significant social cost, the impact is not immediate, but as the impact is growing, I mean, the solution becomes more challenging and also more expensive. So, our business as usual, is not sustainable and there is some cost hidden costs that no one is paying for associated with our current practices with our own energy recovery or energy use. So whether it is climate change, whether it is air pollution, whether it is things related to even resources, like water, use for energy and all of that.

So so how we can have a sustainable energy supply. The that is number one consistent with resources we have number two, we could use it efficiently. And of course, renewable is attractive, because we are not limited by the amount of energy it is not like oil sands or ground or gas in the ground grounds that we can discover.

But eventually it is a depletable source of work, renewable is not depletable. How we can harness that energy that is clean, efficiently and cost effectively, to serve our societal needs is a question here. And there is no single solutions that will fit all and we are working long in that space, you will see each application could have a specific solution that is fit for it when when we talk about clean energy supply and use and what technology and all of that.

So the bottom line is that the business as usual, today is not sustainable. And we are looking for something sustainable, sustainable for the environment, sustainable for security, sustainable, economically sustainable, even socially. I mean, we want really, energy equity, we want affordability, we want environmental justice to all. I mean, we'd like all income living and to be able to use clean energy and enjoy a clean environment.

So all of that actually comes down to me and you and others trying to first be aware of the issues and the problems and the challenges and the tools to be proactive and take actions to help ourselves and the future generations to have a sustainable energy supply and use into the future.

Oh, yeah, I agree with you there. And I guess the question is the investment that both government and industry can be making to kind of make those solutions reality what What work have you been doing with industry and kind of just give us a brief overview because in a minute, we're gonna go to a break, but maybe you can get started with that. That answer before we go to break.

So we engaged in was industry in different through different venues, one of which is government industry partnerships. For example, the US drive is a partnership between DOD and automakers and the energy industry, including power utilities to come together and think in a non competitive way about the future of energy systems and in many cases, we develop studies together and this way, like industry or government then it will not work in silo. And there will be some understanding of the goals and how the government can help how the industry can contribute.

That's a great example of our government and industry working together. When we come back from the break, doctor, we can talk more about that you're listening to Unite and Heal America on KABC 790 This matter, and we'll be right back with you.

You're listening to KABC 790. This is Matt Matern your host of Unite and HEal America. And we've got Dr. Elgowainy from the Argonne National Laboratory here with us today. An, Doctor, we were talking before the break about how industry and and your National Laboratory are working together.

I know that there have been a kind of a consortium of car manufacturers that have worked on creating hydrogen cars for quite some time and and they've rolled them out and I actually drive a hydrogen car, the Toyota MRI, and I know there are others out there on the road, and other car companies are studying it is to whether they're going to roll it out. What's the national laboratory doing with kind of transportation companies to help them use this technology?

Thank you much. So I will pick up from where I left I mentioned the partnership between the government and industry, I mentioned the USB drive this is mainly for light duty vehicles, there is another partnership for the 21st century truck partnership 21 CTP. This is for medium heavy duty vehicles.

And this is where the government to bring their information from research development modeling analysis to inform the industry about what is the value proposition for a given technology deployment pathways, whether it is battery electric, whether it is hydrogen fuel cell, whether it is others biofuels, synthetic fuels.

So this is where the partnership becomes valuable that interaction and the open is again in a non competitive basis. Basically, sharing information is key to working together toward a certain goal. In this case, deploying clean energy supply chain and the power train technologies are going to itself really partner with different industries and utilities and projects. I mean, basically to examine the potential of new technology deployment or energy storage or new onboard storage, for example, for fuel cell vehicles, I mean, developing protocols for the safe use of a new technology.

These things are technology at the lab and the giving information back about how the technology can improve. Sometimes we develop IPs and certain technologies. And they make them available to the industry through funding from the UAE, for shared with the industry to take that technology from the lab to commercial deployment. So all of these are activities that are going on try to bring the science to technology and technology to markets.

Well, that's great work. One of the things that we had talked about a little bit was aviation. And what efforts are being made to decarbonize the aviation sector, which is challenging, but I know they're working on using battery technology, hydrogen technology, synthetic fuels, which are those are farthest along and which one shows the most promise to you and the in the laboratory to to bringing us to maybe a certainly a less carbon a carbon creating aviation sector.

This is a great question. So, I mean, I believe you are alluding to I mean, there is no single solution that fits all right, I mean, and this is something we learn and before our modeling, analysis, understanding of the technology, you will see certain market segments could be more readily embracing technology over the other and the different. Different induce application would favor one form of a low carbon solution versus the others.

For example, we know like light duty vehicles about batteries are attractive simply because most people really have an energy source to plug and charge the batteries. Hydrogen fuel cells are attractive too but of course is fueling infrastructure needs to develop and we see efforts in California to build an initial like network of fueling stations to enable the deployment of these vehicles, medium heavy duty where you demand the more energy storage because you travel more miles and the repose you consume more energy because of the size of the trucks and the body carrier and the body move then hygiene becomes very attractive because the cost of hydrogen storage is of course much lower than a battery storage, but you have an overhead that overhead is your fuel cell plus a battery power train.

And that overhead can be significant or less significant depending on how much energy storage you need onboard to certain applications will find like hydrogen fuel cells very attractive these will be like bosses class eight trucks, long haul trucks among robbers and then you go to certain segments like aviation or for us ocean mesh, marine vessels, where you demand even much much more energy and also the weight of the transportation more like an aeroplane you need to be as light as possible.

So you need to carry as much energy as possible and be as light as possible and this will favor a drop in hydrocarbon whether it is a biofuel or synthetic low carbon fee will actually this could be attractive for marine you know, they are examining now ammonia is another zero carbon energy carrier to power these marine engines.

So different applications may have different solutions for decarbonisation, and the we know the industry, we know the government, whether federal or state are pursuing all technology pathways to enable these technologies and market segments where they are more attractive.

Tell us a little bit about the research that you and your group are doing in particular, and what's what's new and exciting in that area.

So what is exciting today, that is a strong awareness of the problem and the need for immediate solutions. I mean, we need to start today rather than in the future. And we see a ramp up in effort in support and funding. And again, spending all technologies, whether it is fuel supplier, energy supply chain, or whether it is infrastructure, or whether it is end use application, including different powertrain technologies.

For example, for transportations, and we have the strong engagement in all of the above through our modeling analysis. In essence, in my group, we try to evaluate the prospect of the technology, its readiness to deploy in the market. It's what will make a good business case in what application I mean how much carbon you would reduce.

And because we are funded actually through the government through public support, we make our models and reports and analysis all in public domain and it is a really satisfying that we see. Our models are not only used in the US but globally like our environmental model name degree, which stands for greenhouse gases regulated emissions and energy use in technologies is being used by over 50,000 users globally.

Government agencies like California use your heat for the low carbon fuel standards. So, our models are tools our hydrogen delivery model known as HDD Sam for hydrogen delivery scenario analysis model, which looks at infrastructure deployment, fueling methods, techniques, impact of onboard storage, all of that is also used the White House and globally.

So, what we can contribute in that space, whether it is model or analysis or information about where as opposed to drive or we are r&d money can bring the biggest impact to reduce costs or improve performance to come closer to market. So all of these are awarding contribution that we feel are important to the future of our energy system.

Well, that's great work. Because obviously, if you're empowering 50,000 users through your grid model and 1000s of others through your hydrogen modeling, and that means that they're going to be able to make better decisions based upon good information, good science that you've created, which then directs money and policy, hopefully in the right direction, so that we don't go down some, some dead ends, wasting time and money that we don't really have.

Because as you said, repeatedly, we've got an act now. So we need to make the right decisions now, so that the future will turn out to be one that is that we can live here on this planet. So let's do our best to take care of it. Dr. It's been a pleasure having you on the show.

Thank you for sharing your your knowledge with the audience. It's been great having you and I love to have you back on at some time in the future to talk about what's what's happening, you know, whatever, six months from now or a year from now.

Thank you much for having me. It was a pleasure.

Well, thanks again, Dr. Elgowainy from the Argonne National Laboratories. Doctors, great scientists, doing incredible work. They're helping helping our country and the world as you heard us the work that he's doing to roll out technology that will hopefully lead to a sustainable future for all of us.

You are listening to KABC 790. This is Matern, your host of Unite and HEal America and we'll be back next week. So have a great week everybody.