Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Wisdom Chart.

I'm Phil Holzer for Forum Gold, and my wonderful guest today is Yvonne Pavag, MP of Makerfield, which is is for anyone who doesn't understand is near Wigan.

Yvonne's been an MP now since 2010 for the Labor Party and has been very active around things such as debt and personal finances, amongst many other things that Yvonne gets involved in.

Yvonne, it's lovely to have you here.

You're the chair of the all party Parliamentary Group for debt and personal Finance.

And I know I was sort of involved in that year for a while, but it's wonderful to have you here today.

Yvonne, thank you so much for your time.

Well, thank you.

It's good to be here.

Yes.

I've chaired the group since I started in 2010.

It sort of led from my previous work experience, which was 23 years with Citizens of Ice Bureau.

So it seemed a natural progression, really.

Yeah, definitely.

And I think in terms of my sort of short period of involvement there, I know you were doing some great work with that group and also highlighting some of the challenges that people, especially people on sort of low income and debt were facing at the time.

And many changes have happened since then.

But we know we're in difficult times now with the rising cost of living.

What are the kind of things that you're seeing?

Well, I think for the first time, I'm getting emails now from people saying that they can't afford to pay their fuel bill, they can't afford to eat previously.

I've always been able to send them to assistance with our vice Bureau in the show knowledge that there would be something they can do to deal with their debts for the first time.

Like Martin Lewis, I'm saying I don't know what to suggest because there just isn't enough money.

And unless some of their debts are written off, there is absolutely nothing they can do.

They haven't got the income coming in that allows them to live a basic standard of living.

Really?

Yeah.

It is a very challenging time.

And one of the things that had been spoken of in the debt and money advice world was those people who were on any form of insolvency solution or debt management plan, having to go back to the drawing board to rewrite them, in a sense.

And actually, you can't add in money that isn't there.

And so, yeah, it's becoming more and more difficult for these people.

That's right.

There just isn't enough money to actually live and pay creditors.

And in some cases, even without the payment of creditors, they haven't got enough money to live in a comfortable manner heating their homes.

I've got people saying to me, I'm going to have to turn the heating off.

Well, that is untenable, actually.

It's all right now.

We're coming into summer, but if bills go up any further in October, which they are planned to do.

Turning off the heating through the winter period is just not possible.

And it's not just people on benefits who aren't working, it's people on benefits who are working.

It's working people doing two jobs to keep afloat.

It's a wide strategy of people.

There are more people in poverty now than I've ever seen.

Yeah.

And what really struck me with regards to those people in work is this rise of in work poverty.

And I've come across some people who have got two or three jobs and are still struggling to make ends meet.

It's terrible.

Yeah, I think that's right.

I mean, we used to talk about the bumps in the road that caused the problems, for example, being ill or having an accident, having your hours shortened.

It's not the bumps in the road causing the problems anymore.

It's just everyday living that are causing problems for many people.

I think one of the things that really struck me in conversations with people was the timing of some of these increases.

So we've had the increase in terms of the energy prices, we've had the increase in the national insurance contribution, and obviously the rapid rise in terms of the cost of food and things like this all coming at the same time.

And it's just compounded the situation.

And people are asking why now?

Why in this way and what can we do about it?

That's right.

I mean, the other problem, of course, with pensioners is the fact that the triple lock has gone.

Their pension is not rising in line with inflation for the first time, and food crisis.

And I do worry about pensioners who really do not want to get into debt, turning off the heating because they are particularly vulnerable.

I think there are things that can be done.

I think there should be more done to reduce energy prices, and I think that's going to have to be in October.

Quite frankly, I cannot see energy prices going.

I mean, £5000 has been mentioned, which is ludicrous.

Yes.

I must admit, I was looking at our energy prices recently and I think I was quoted something like 500 and some pounds a month where we were originally on about $185.

That's a huge increase, if that is actually correct.

So I'm keeping a very close eye on it.

But for those who are in a situation and don't tend to have any leeway, what would you say to them if they're really concerned about their situation?

I think they need to talk to their energy supplier.

I think many of the energy suppliers have recognized it's going to be a problem.

I do think they need to sit down and look completely at the budget.

But as a last resort, I mean, Martin Lewis is saying for the first time, heat the human, not the home.

That to me, it's just unfortunate we have to do this.

I don't believe in one of the richest countries.

It's necessary, but it will be yeah, you're right.

And I was just thinking on that basis where we focus on just heating the person is the longterm impact it would have on the properties as well, in terms of I remember years ago going to see a client who had two young kids, a single parent, walking into the house and feeling this house is colder than outside, and it was no wonder the children kept being ill and so on.

We're just sort of stacking up a disaster, really, aren't we?

Well, yes.

And a lot of the properties in my constituency are the old terraced houses.

Well, some of them were insulated, but of course, that stopped in 2010.

The program so the insulation program hasn't carried on.

So they are in cold drafty houses to begin with.

Yeah, it's a difficult one.

I just think the other thing that's really come to the floor as well, not just the rising cost of living, but it's the rise in fraud in terms of scams and things like this.

And I know you've got a particular interest in this area.

I mean, just say a little bit about what your concerns are on this.

I think there's a number of areas.

I think the pandemic with isolation and people being at home.

They've relied more online and online.

There's been a lot of fraudulent activity going on.

There's been people saying this investment will give you 12%, which is not possible.

They've used celebrities to endorse it.

There's also the push payment fraud, which is when somebody Imitates say a solicitor, I had a constituent who was buying a house, and they got an email from the solicitor, looked very official, and it said that our bank account details have changed.

Please transfer the money for your house into this account.

They did that and it was a fraudulent account.

It took them a long time to get the money back.

And in the meantime, they had real problems, of course, with buying the new home because the money hasn't gone to the right person.

So I think banks need to publish how many people they reimburse if they are being defrauded by what appears to be very sophisticated fraud.

I mean, some of the frauds that are so sophisticated that even the office that investigates them says they could be fooled by it.

And if that's the case.

There'S kind of no hope for assistance.

Yeah, I do understand that.

And it reminds me of quite a few emails that I've received over the last six to twelve months.

I've seen an increase in the number of emails, but I look at it and I just think that's definitely a fraudulent email.

But for people who are not aware, it can be very hard for them to identify because they look so genuine logos and everything on them.

It's not just email, it's telephone calls as well, from people who sound very genuine.

As one of my constituents said, he sounded a very nice man.

I really trusted him.

Well, yes, that's what Frost is doing.

Yeah.

And we know that even with the loan charge, which we've been sort of tackling for many years now, how we hadn't realized that often these things are perpetrated, particularly on the loan charge side by people that are already known, who have sort of built up a friendship and disarmed people to thinking that they're nice people, good people.

And then we hear these horrendous stories of how people are being hounded sometimes not just the psychological side, but the physical side as well.

I know there's been a lot of work on the loan shark side, but I know this is very much part of what is affecting our nation at the moment and what we're having to deal with the fraud and so on.

What are your thoughts on that?

Yes.

I mean, I think the basic underlying problem is there's not enough money for people to live on.

And B, those who have bad credit history or no credit history, who can least afford it to charge the most credit or refuse credit by the other agencies.

So they turn to what is facing a friend who is generously offering to loan the money, even if it's a higher rate.

But frankly, if your kids need shoes, what do you do?

Really?

You are in a bind and you want to do the best thing, but they are, in fact, Lane shark.

It is illegal and people are stepping over the bounds.

I would always say do go to the local cab, talk to the illegal money lending unit.

There are a lot of places to go, but people are at the end of their tether and they're a shame there is still a stigma to debt, which they shouldn't be.

There really shouldn't during the Panda.

I think everybody has debts of some form or another, whether it's a mortgage, whether it's a loan for a car or anything else.

The difference is that some people at that time can afford to pay it and other times they can't afford to pay it, and then it becomes debt.

It's not stigma.

Everybody is in debt in some form or another.

Yes, I agree with the stigma side, because even in the work that I do, there's listening to people's conversations and the things that they say, you can clearly tell that people feel quite nervous about talking about their money because they're afraid of what people might say, what people might think.

But it's really important as perhaps you and I would agree that it is important to go and talk to somebody and see it.

Definitely.

I remember years ago I just mentioned this story when my daughters were young, we went through a period of redundancies.

There were three redundancies in two years, and it really knocked us back financially an awful lot.

And we needed shoes for our daughters.

We went to Cab and they actually told us of a scheme that was going on where we were able to access it and purchase shoes for our daughter.

So it's definitely worth talking to people when you're in a difficult place, isn't it?

Yeah.

I mean, I was left with my daughter who was only 18 months old at the time, and I was left a single parent when my husband walked out quite suddenly.

And it's a dreadful situation to be in.

It's really difficult.

But I think until you need to appreciate that everyone has different issues, problems and you're not alone.

Yes.

And I think that's one of the biggest that when you're in, that what I would term a dark place.

It does feel like you're alone.

But actually there's so many more people out there and there are people that you can talk to.

The other thing I was thinking of and you mentioned to me, Yvonne, was your concerns about some of the cheap electrical products that are out there on the market.

Clearly, when people have been pressed, they're going to say, can I get this, can I get it cheaper elsewhere and so on.

So they're going to see these kind of deals through what seemingly are reputable companies.

What kind of things have you been coming across?

I think there's some different aspects.

I think one of the problems is Amazon Marketplace, which Amazon say they have no responsibility for their third party sellers, but it's done through the Amazon site.

And I was saying previously that actually I'm not sure people recognize that buying from a third party seller on Marketplace and buying from Amazon director two different things.

But there are quite often cheap electrical phone Chargers for Apple phones, Samsung phones, which are dangerous.

I have seen them actually burst into flames where they're left off and caused house fires.

The other problems, I've seen it with some of the websites like Alibaba and Wish who were selling cheap copies of Dyson Hairdryers 1st, 40, 50 quid looks like a bargain.

I've seen one that when it was switched on, burst into flames.

Now do you want that new hair?

To be honest, if it looks too good to be true, it is too good to be true.

Yeah.

I take your point about when you're dealing with and for example, I deal with Amazon an awful lot.

I buy a lot of products and stationery and things like that through Amazon.

But every now and again, there is something else that I need to buy, like an electrical item technology or something like this.

And you don't realize that Amazon are representing perhaps many buyers.

But the assumption and this was, I suppose me in a way, assuming that because it's Amazon, then it's okay because they will have done all the checks.

But actually they don't.

I suppose that's what you're referring to, isn't it, about the fact that people will assume they get it.

They're buying from a reputable firm in actual fact, this is actually from another party could be from anywhere in the world.

And there's no guarantees that, A, you're going to get it or, B, that is going to be the product that you thought it would be.

That's right.

You can't rely on reviews either, because there have been quite a number of cases which have investigated where people have been paid to give five star reviews to products.

And some of the products, even the verified purchase Report, they're people who've been sent the goods for free and have been incentivised to give a five star review.

And if you don't do it, they get quite threatening letters, actually.

Oh, dear me.

I must admit, I bought an item.

I mentioned this to you earlier.

I bought an item, and I hadn't realized it was coming from the Far East until I've actually bought it.

I never got the item and I never got my money back.

And that was through Amazon.

And whichever way I tried, I just couldn't get a resolution to this.

And they had reviews on there that looked very genuine reviews.

And I suppose if they've taken that approach, then it's easy to dupe anybody.

Really?

Yes.

It's very easy to get to the top of the rankings in Amazon.

And that is a real problem, because if you can't trust the reviews, how are you going to know what the product is?

I have bought phone charges that weren't original for Apple.

I don't do it anymore.

And I have thrown them away because I have seen so many examples of where the wires, they've not got any insulation and things like that.

But then that means paying the prices that, frankly, people these days are going to find very difficult to afford.

Yeah, that's true in terms of what we've talked about.

Ivan, I'm just conscious that times passing us by.

Is there anything else that you would actually like to raise with our listeners now that you think is important at this time?

I think one of the things I'm working on at the moment is with the Jubilee debt campaign about canceling out some of the areas that people will never be able to pay back, whether it's by the pandemic or because the cost of living has risen.

And actually canceling out this debt would save money in the long run on mental health issues and cost to local authorities and other public bodies.

The other thing I'm working on is actually getting local authorities to not use the bailiffs as a first resort or even at all to collect Council tax debts.

We need to make sure that public bodies collect their debts responsibly, particularly with the cost of living crisis.

Yeah.

And again, that's the Echo that looking at our Council tax bill and how that's increased.

It's almost like increases are coming from every quarter.

And there comes a point in which you say you can't take anymore.

And I can imagine for some people that's a very difficult place to be.

But I would say like anything if they are struggling.

This is one of the things I suppose you and I really want and that is for people to not stay silent but to speak up, to ask for help.

There are lots of good organizations around that are free to use that would give help and support citizens advice.

Excellent.

You've got the money helper online through the money and pension service.

And then there's other organizations that people can use that are free.

And we'd always say make sure it is free because that's available for you.

That's right.

I mean, don't think you're by yourself.

You're not.

And don't wait until things get completely out of hand and unmanageable.

It's much easier to deal with issues at an early stage than it is when you're absolutely at the end of your tether and you maybe have gone to one of those illegal money lenders.

And please think about using buy now, pay later.

Don't do it if possible, particularly for food.

That's another one that needs regulating.

Yes, I know there's been quite a bit in the various press and articles about the buy now, pay later.

Yvonne, I know that time has escaped us now.

Thank you so much for that.

If anybody wants to sort of pass on any sort of stories or experiences to you.

What would be the best way in which they could do that?

They can always contact me by email.

I can only deal with constituent inquiries but obviously I can look at all the issues from the debt and personal finance point of view.

I do have an email.

If you just look at my name, Yvonne Fovague.

Which is F-O-V-A-R-G-U-E then you'll find my email address.

Thank you very much, Yvonne.

I really appreciate your time and for our listeners, please don't say silent.

If you are struggling anyway, talk to somebody.

And as both of John and myself have said, there are plenty of people around who can do that.

Or please do email Evan with any thoughts, stories that you may have that could be helpful to actually tackle some of these issues that we've talked about.

So thank you very much, Yvonne.

Appreciate your time.

Thank you very much.

It's been great to talk to you again.