Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a

podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,

knowledge, ideas, and learning, or the SK il framework.

Kainar Kamalov: First is compensation. The second is

team. And the third is like, what's the mission or project

that you're working on? If you have all three of them, you

believe in the mission and like the problems you're solving are

exciting. And I think like, that's an ideal environment.

Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member

experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps

podcast. So welcome back. It's another week, hope it was a good

one for you. And I'm really happy to have you back here

listening to the show. And on today's episode, it's sort of a

topic that's close to home for me. Communication. And we've

we've sort of gone around the topic of communication through

various ways. We've talked about proactive honesty, we've talked

about empathetic communication or empathic communication, I

should say. And, and we, we really never dove into

communication as a whole. So today, that's exactly what we're

going to do. And my guest today, Kiner Camelot is here to talk

about it with me and keiner is committed to helping humans make

the most of technology and helping engineers do their best

work. He's originally from OSH, Kyrgyzstan, and now resides in

Bishkek. He's an MIT graduate and publish expert on human

computer interactions, was a founding team member at B 12.

were created and led a distributed engineering team and

is currently director of engineering at pipe, which is a

recurring revenue trading platform, at pipe has focuses on

building new products, as well as recruiting and leading a team

of engineers distributed across the globe. And that's something

we're definitely going to get into also communication not just

in your own backyard, but communication when you have to

do it, like 12 hours past your bedtime. So, Kiner thank you so

much for joining me, and welcome to the humans of DevOps podcast.

Kainar Kamalov: Thank you, Jason. I'm very glad to be here.

I think it'll be an interesting topic for us to cover because

English is like the third or fourth language that I speak. So

for me, it takes a lot of effort to communicate well,

Jason Baum: I could say hello, and a few different languages. I

can order I can I can order things. That's the extent of my

my bilingual illness or trilingual illness. So very

important. Yeah, absolutely. And yes. Okay, so Kiner, are you

ready to get human? Oh, let's do it. I think we've already

started. So what does it take to be a good communicator in your

eyes?

Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, this is such a multifaceted, big

question. And I think, for me, it's important. Like when I

think about a good communicator is someone who is a clear

communicator, a person that has thought through a problem before

jumping into answering the, you know, like proposing a solution

or answering the question. The other thing that I want to touch

on is that communication, a lot of the times it's not about just

saying something, but it's also being an active listener,

understanding the surroundings, right, and like, so in a lot of

this one on ones conversation that we have, it helps you have

to be listening to your, to whomever you're communicating

with, to be able to then kind of reflect back on what they're

saying, and to kind of build up on the topics that you've been

discussing. Yeah. And so for us, I also think that like in, like

engineering organizations, what is important is to have

processes to guide those communications, right, to make

them really good, right. So for instance, you know, like, even

like, when we do pull requests, we have to have clear guidance

as to how to do certain things. Because if everyone does it in a

different way, there are no guidances around it, then you

just get like, it's really hard to follow for someone who's just

joining the team or who have someone who's been absent for a

while. Yeah,

Jason Baum: and you mentioned active listening and it's funny,

we talk about communication and people usually talk about how

they talk right how they what they're saying and I think I'm

glad that you went right to listening. You know, there's the

saying write about having one mouth but you have two years,

right and, and not just listening, but then also I think

being able to valid data, what the person is saying to you,

goes a long way as well right in showing that you're listening to

them, and not just listening to them, but you are empathy.

Empathic, ah, I cannot say that word today, you are feeling

empathy for them. And and you understand what they're saying.

And that that goes towards, then you could get to the next step,

right? It's how do you go from A to B?

Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, exactly. Like, especially like with our

globally distributed team, we have like, we come from all

different backgrounds for, for us, it is important to be on the

same page. And the way like I have the simple tricks that I

do, for instance, like just asking question again, right?

Like when someone says something to me just asking back, just

repeating whether like I understood the question, right,

or just adding follow up questions. And then once a

person finishes a point, or like a conversation, just tell them

back what exactly what I've heard and make sure that I heard

it correctly. During the meeting.

Jason Baum: Yeah. So what are so that's like one tip, for better

communication. What's another tip that you might have?

Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, I think on the tips, we have a whole list

of things, it depends on I guess, like, we'll give brother

the communication is one on one, or it's within a team or within

an org, or outside of an org, right. So for instance, if it's

very technical, like say, we are working on a project together,

and we want to make sure that it's shipped. So there are

certain channels that we have to establish prior to actually

starting the problem, like the problem definition is, like, we

have to be very clear what the what kind of problem we're

solving before, people are bought into it, like the

stakeholders understand what problem we're solving. And, and

then like just having, like, whenever we have a meeting

around this problem, making sure that we take notes about, you

know, like, so So whomever is not in a meeting, they know

exactly what we've talked about. And then in the end of the

meeting, have summaries. And then we have like Project

charters when you can, when it's a one pager that describes what

this project is going to be about. So again, this is like,

really important in a globally distributed team to have as much

communication, like over communication is a good source

of communication as possible. And, and in that sense, like, we

have to make sure that they have project charters, we have RFCs

work like technical descriptions of the documents. And all of

those communications have to happen before in engineering

team actually goes and then executes and starts implementing

those things. So I think that's like everything prior to

actually implementing it.

Jason Baum: Yeah, and and I would argue, almost, it's not

necessarily over communication, it's effective communication,

right, that we often are lacking, or that we are striving

for, in many instances, and you brought up virtual work

environments and global work environments. And certainly,

that's something that prior to the pandemic, certainly on the

rise, but nothing like it is now. And I would imagine that

throws a whole other, you know, arm in the race, this is like,

it's it's a whole different world now that we operate in.

And from a communication perspective. It's just another

hurdle, right?

Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, for sure. I think, I think I was well set

up going into pandemic, if you can say, so basically, for the

past eight years now, I've been working remotely. I've been

working from Kyrgyzstan, I would travel back and forth to the

states and whatnot, but mostly I've been working remotely. And

and, yeah, we've set up processes around it. Like, in

the beginning, we had when we I had to work by American hours,

like in 2014. That would be an iPad with my face on it so that

I'm present in the office, it was everyone else. And that

quickly became ineffective, because I had to stay up until

five in the morning, right? And then yeah, and then we kind of

had to evolve. And we had to like come up with like, how do

we make sure that we have all these, like communication

channels in place? So and then actually building this remote

first teams, and going into pandemic like pipe was started

two and a half years ago, and started right before the

pandemic. So the whole company, the whole team culture is was

built during a pandemic. And that's why we were able to scale

globally.

Jason Baum: Can you give an example maybe if something that

you do, maybe that's a little different than if you were

communicating in an office setting like when you have I'll

give you an example from something that I see at least on

my team, so we are all remote. It's actually the first

environment I've been in where the entire company is remote.

Before and we talked about this two weeks ago, we our topic was

the great resignation, we spent a little bit of time on some

culture issues, I really believe retention is something we should

be focusing on. And recruitment is always gonna be important.

It's nothing like it was because now you can recruit globally. So

you have this huge talent pool of the world. But retention is

also important and keeping those good people because you never

know, you know, for both sides, right? The grass is always

greener, a little bit. And we don't focus on that enough. And

I think good, positive, positive communication, effective

communication, all these things are so important. On my team,

I've noticed culture wise, that while we are great

communicators, there is a need I think, for, quote, unquote,

small talk or, you know, the ability to what we don't have

that I noticed, that is kind of lacking is the ability to like

go to your team members desk, knock on the door, poke your

head in, have your cup of coffee in hand, pen, just how was the

weekend, you know, type of conversation? And unless it's a

planned meeting, and now you're gonna have that conversation, it

doesn't happen. And we're missing it. I think.

Kainar Kamalov: 100% Yeah, I think we actually, like there

are two problems there. Right. One is, for existing team

members, how do we make sure that the team is like, there is

this? Like, there is fluidity right, where there's, you can

just knock on someone's door and whatnot. And then there is

bringing someone onto the team. So I'd say like those are, and

like making sure that they feel like a good part of the team.

And they kind of like fit right in and then increase on this

culture. So the jump into the first point, is like, what we do

is like, like, we have hours of everyone works in so in Slack,

you know exactly when someone is present or not. Right. And when

someone is present, we just, we use this huddles a lot. We just

like jumped into the hurdles. Similar how you would just, like

knock on someone's door. Like if I love I just yeah, this is such

a great invention. Yeah. Yeah. So we just go into the hurdles

before cuddles were like a part of the slack. We used to have a

discord channels open. So we would have just like three

channels on Discord that you could just be part of just sit

there work. And then someone else joins in, you just talk.

So. So that's something that we tried to be active about. We

also have this recurring meetings, we call them water

coolers. Where there is no agenda in those meetings. It's

any, anyone in the team can join them whenever they want.

Usually, I talk about sports, I talk about running and biking,

because that's what I do.

Jason Baum: A lot of I love that. Are they just open?

Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, exactly. They're open, you can just come

in and just hang out with people. And then like, we

actually had, like, couple of people in our team that were

just talking there. And then like, hey, why don't we meet up

next week in Finland. And then two people just flew out from

the states to Finland, and they spent a week there, just hanging

out through three co workers. Right. So that was amazing. And,

and then we have to make sure that the new person that is

joining us also vulner like you know, we create a safe spot

where they feel vulnerable, to be able to be part of the team

and just express their ideas. And not not not shy away.

Without everyone. There are no dumb questions. So we just like,

kind of like we have this onboarding buddies that just

take and spend like our three to three weeks of their time, just

helping to get someone like to make sure that they fit right

into the team. So and we had examples where like team members

had to fly into, like this new members, you know, city, so that

they could spend a couple of weeks together actually working

and setting them up and whatnot. Yeah, and then one thing like

that never can never substitute, in my opinion, like, real world

communication. Just it's not substitutable, right. So for,

for that what we do is every three months, we try to meet as

a whole engineering team, or like the whole team. Like every

three, every six months, we we meet as an engineering team, and

then every other six months, the whole company meets. So there is

like every three months, like engineers get to hang out with

each other. And during that time, we just try to make sure

that we just focus on this team building activities and just

making sure that people are comfortable with each other and

build this trust between each other and understand each other

better.

Ad: Hey, humans DevOps, it's mixing here from DevOps

Institute. I'm dropping by to share how you can skill up and

advance your career with the DevOps Institute premium

membership. Our goal To empower you to gain the edge, you need

to advance your DevOps skills, knowledge, ideas, and learning.

A premium membership gives you all access to what DevOps

Institute has to offer. How does getting 30% off all

certification exams? What about having access to a tool that can

Assess your team's DevOps capabilities. And if that wasn't

enough, members can also read our entire library of skill

books to support you during your DevOps journey. Get started

today for the price of a cup of coffee by going to DevOps

institute.com/membership. Head to the link in the episode

description to receive 20% off your DevOps Institute premium

membership.

Jason Baum: So tell me about water coolers a little bit more?

Because I am I think that I think you've shared a lot of

great ideas there. The water cooler meeting is something I

have not heard of as like just an open, recurring meeting

that's just always there. And you can just jump it. How do

you? So I think some of these methods and we've talked about

them on the podcast in the past are great. The problem I see is

adoption. How do you get people to buy in? To those? Yeah,

Kainar Kamalov: that's, that's a great question. Like, what we do

is we have less like Slack, Slack channel, that's called

Water Cooler. And then during this actually, we had a water

cooler, like, last week, which was like, we have them with

three times a week. And last week, last one was on Friday,

like, say, 7pm my time, right? What we do is like whoever is

the first person to join the water cooler, they just create

either a huddle, if they want to just hear or they can create a

zoom, and just blast out a message to the chat. Hey,

welcome, people are welcome to join. And you'd be surprised a

lot of people actually do join, because I think we are remote

first. And I think it's all about like, making sure that it

is ingrained, right. It's, this is something that I look forward

to, because then I get to talk to people that I don't get a

chance to talk to day to day. And it's a lot of fun.

Jason Baum: Because when teams are working together when you're

sharing that information, right, when you're making yourself

vulnerable when you're communicating effectively, and

it's not just work related. Now there's this trust that you're

building, right? And that's how proactive honesty can come

about. And that's, and right. And it's like, it's like a

snowball that you're building a little bit. And when you don't

have it. I think you can sense it, right? The team doesn't

necessarily function at the best that it could you maybe you have

silos that are come up, right?

Kainar Kamalov: Exactly. And like, it's like, a lot of the

times people are focused on this execution mode, and they are

working on their projects. But then in this water coolers, we

can take a step back, and we just talk about random things,

right, we can talk about, like non work related things, but a

lot of the times, like, certain things, certain frustrations

might come up that, you know, like that, I might share, like,

Hey, I think this didn't go well. And then we can all talk

there. And and then like, we might have an outcome from it

right. Beyond that we have this meeting called Kaizen, which is

every two weeks and engineering team sits down. And we have an

but that one is specifically focused on discussion topics. So

everyone, we we like to make sure that there are topics that

might be uncovered during this any meeting water coolers or any

other meeting or just someone that sees an issue of some

sorts, and we just discuss it with Hey, how can we improve

improve our communications? How can we just giving each other

feedback and shouting each other out making sure that like, just

building this culture of transparency?

Jason Baum: Yeah, like that a culture of transparency, a

culture of trust? And and this might answer the question that

I'm about to ask though. But, you know, when you provide

feedback, especially in a remote environment, everyone has gotten

the text before or the email that you read, and you're like,

What are they talking about? And you get angry? And you're, oh, I

can't believe they wrote this. And then you know, you get on

the phone with them or you you have it in person? And you're

Oh, no, I didn't mean it that way. Like it totally

misinterpreted what I had to say because it's not a great channel

of communication, right? We So so how is it that you can help

team members in this environment when everything is the channel

is through slack the channel is through. Maybe it's not in the

water cooler, although I love the water cooler because that

allows for this openness, and the better channel but how do

you help team members? Kind of not be defensive and be

adaptable in a remote environment?

Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, I think you People get defensive,

usually, in my opinion, when there is when there is lack of

trust, a lot of times, and, and I think that's like a, like if,

and that's, that's a bigger issue that, that, like, if I see

someone being defensive, then I have to maybe it's structurally

we have something like the culture is not right, you know,

like something had to irritate this person to a point that we

got to that point, right. So, and to avoid that what we have

to be active about giving feedback. And feedback is, and

we've tried to be very conscientious about it, we say

like, Hey, this is this feedback is not to who you are, this

feedback is towards this particular issue, right. And

like, some people just have more tendency to be like, more

aggressive during the meetings and whatnot, and others are more

defensive. So I think like giving feedback on like, how the

meeting can be held, is important. So and the

vulnerability is, like, such a hard topic, I think we try to,

we try to be very proactive about it. And we have like, one

on ones, we have one on ones, it's a flat organization, we

don't have like, we have 2530 engineers, and we try to make

sure that everyone is heard. And everyone. Like, we try to have

like this, like, network effect that everyone talks to everyone

so that we are on the same page. And so there are two things that

we do we have, we always have, like, written communication is

important. But also like we have meetings, where like people

discuss certain issues. And if it's a recurring meeting, we

make sure that every week, a new member is a meeting leader, and

there is a new note taker, so and then meeting leaders job is

to make sure that everyone in the meeting is participating.

And that way this like, like everyone is growing from that

experience, and at the same time, like all of this gaps that

we might have missed are being uncovered.

Jason Baum: Are you creating a culture of accountability? By

doing that, also?

Kainar Kamalov: Exactly, I think, I think we, we try to be

very, very conscientious about like, what type of people we are

hiring, I think, and we are looking for people that enjoy

building and enjoy writing code, it's like, they have either

hacker mentality entrepreneurial mentality, where everyone in a

team, just like, we have this shared values engineering, or

like, company wide values. And, and one of the values is

communicate, clearly and often, for instance, right. And the

other. Another value is like making sure that you know, like,

if you see a problem, just go fix it type of mentality, and,

and, and what and how the way we like, that's the type of people

that we are looking for. And, and we we make sure that we

facilitated within a team by whenever there is a new project,

we don't have, like, we get all just come together to solve that

problem project within a team. But then like, within that

group, there is like, there will be a leader. And we want to make

sure that the leaders change on project basis, so that everyone

has a chance to be, like, responsible person for that

project. Right. So and that's how we make sure that the

outcome, there is accountability. And so and then,

and accountability comes from multiple factors, right, such as

problem definition, like have we had day as a group, we're able

to define what problem they're trying to solve. And what's the

success metric once they solve that problem. So and they have

to make sure that, you know, they, that's it, then then we

can tell from as a leadership, we can talk to them. And at the

end of the meeting, at the end of the project, say like, Hey,

did you achieve what you were what you said you would achieve?

Jason Baum: And that's how we can provide that feedback. Yeah.

And provide the feedback. Yeah. Which is which is that that one

of the final pieces right of that communication cycle? So how

did how at pipe What are you doing at pipe to kind of keep

things I guess, rewarding, to give a sense of you want people

to be passionate about their work. Now, obviously, you can't

make someone passionate about their work. But how do you keep

it exciting? How do you keep them jazzed about you know

what's going on and I guess, excited about what they do.

Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, Um, so what I hear is that what, what

makes a job reporting? I guess, right. So, in my opinion,

they're like, three things that make an employee happy, like, in

a broader scheme, like first is compensation if, and the second

is team. And the third is like, what's the mission or project

that you're working on, say like, if you have all three of

them, like you have you enjoy the team, you have great

compensation, you don't have to worry about it. And you believe

in the mission that this and like, the problems you're

solving are exciting. And I think like, that's an ideal

environment. If one of these three factors is off, then it

creates weird dynamics where it's like, if the team is off,

and it's like, I'm not sure if I want to work here, you know,

like, this guys don't seem to be like, you know, XY and Z and

whatnot, right? And then, and if two factors, or two of the three

are not working, then it's like, why am I even in this team? So.

So for us, it's important to make sure that, like, we cover

all of those things. And, yeah, and I think it also comes from

the fact that, like, all of us are super vulnerable and open.

Like, I like I'm, I think it's okay to say that you don't know

certain things. And then you are like, yeah, like, we always ask

for feedback, like, Hey, how can we improve on that? And this?

And that? Oh, 100%? Yeah, I think I think

Jason Baum: that's more important, right than asking for

it.

Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, 100%, I think that's so important. And,

because initially, like that, like, like the first two years,

right of the any team, any company's growth is, you know,

just kind of like, just trying to find the problem to solve.

And then we just work on projects, and you scale a team,

you, you create something exciting, and then and then you

reach a certain size in a team when, you know, like, if you

don't have well. well documented values, for instance, are well

documented processes in place, then people tend to create them

for their own smaller circles. And that creates a division.

And, and that's exactly what I'm trying to avoid. How do we make

sure that like, we're all focused on the same goal, and

how do we make sure that we are striving to improve

communication across the board?

Jason Baum: Yeah, definitely. It's kind of like the struggle

of you want hive mind, but that people keep their individuality.

Right. It's like, it's nowhere in the world. No, no, and no

other instance of life. Is this, like an acceptable way of going

about it. But we do really want that right, the hive mind, but

all for positive. But you know, it's funny, because you

mentioned the things that people value, you know, obviously

compensation. And, but I think that the reasons why people

leave their jobs isn't necessarily because of

compensation. I think people leave their jobs, maybe because

they're not being heard. Because communication is poor, because

they're providing feedback. And it's not being taken because

because there's a lack of the mission, like you said, silos.

So it's funny, because it's like, all these things that you

don't really necessarily not everyone goes into the job, you

know, thinking about those things. They're like, Well, what

do I get paid? And How flexible are you with my hours, which

obviously, is important, but I think those other things are

usually more important when leaving the job.

Kainar Kamalov: Yeah, 100%, I think, and what we do is

actually like, we have this retrospectives. And we do them

upon achieving anything, or failing on any major milestone,

right? So and it can be like, when we, when we have like, when

we complete a project, or we complete a quarter, like, what

did we do? Like, team sits down and they are like the whole

company sit down and then say, Hey, what did we do, right? What

did we do wrong? We have we make sure that like those, we

everyone has, like a time to ask to raise certain points. And

then we create action items from that, to make sure that we

actually then like, follow up follow through on that on the

retro

Jason Baum: Yeah, keeping your word is incredibly important. I

think for the company, and for the employee to write you say

you're going to get a job done. Get the job done. If you can't

get the job done, communicate it. You know, it's funny if you

if you're missing deadlines, obviously it's gonna raise a red

flag you're gonna be in trouble you know, whatever the you know,

it's not gonna be good situation for you. But if you're gonna

miss a deadline, and I feel like if you raise that flag earlier

in the process, and you look at it as I'm a sports, I'm a sports

fan to kind of our but we can't win, I'm not allowed to talk

about it too much on the podcast, I get in trouble. But

if you look at it from a team sense, right sports, you win and

you fail as a team, individual performance, yes, it's

important. But at the end of the day, you know, individuals don't

work when championships teams do, right. So when you have one

individual who is struggling a little bit, and they're at least

proactively honest about it, I think that's really important,

because then the team can rally around that person and can help.

But when it's too late, it's too late for everyone.

Kainar Kamalov: Exactly, I think that's a great point you touched

on, I think, what we also tried to do is to make sure that like,

those things surfaced earlier in time. So and, and one on ones

are a great way to do it, right? Like because in this, like the

job of a manager of a lot of the times is to make sure that like,

you know, like to keep people accountable, but at the same

time protect them from, you know, like just being there as

a, as a friend, making sure if there's something going on, that

might be out of their control, right, like maybe some issues

outside of the work, then like this person is actually being a

shield, saying, hey, this person had some time of, like, let's

make sure that, you know, like, let's not bother them for a bit.

And on the other hand, if there is no like external factors,

then maybe a manager job is like, Hey, you have to step up

now in order for us to be able to achieve certain things. So

it's like, it's more of an art than science there.

Jason Baum: Yeah, totally. It's like navigating a ship.

Sometimes, you know, it takes a while to turn it and it takes,

you know, it's takes more than just one person to turn a cruise

ship, right. So I really appreciate it. I think we've

we've covered so much on the topic. And I appreciate your

time kind iron for coming to us all the way from Kyrgyzstan. And

now the way we usually wrap up our podcast is that we ask one

question that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic,

but all about you. So to put you on the spot a little bit. What

is one thing that you could be remembered for? If you could be

remembered for one thing? What would that be?

Kainar Kamalov: Like after I die? Or like after this podcast?

Jason Baum: Sure, whichever. I've never actually had someone

interpret it that way. But I love that. But yeah, it's up to

you. I mean, typically, I think people think post mortem, but

Kainar Kamalov: that's too far for me to think about. So. Yeah,

well, I think I, as I said, I do sports for fun. And I got into

running like, like, couple, like five, six years ago. And so

right now I hold Kyrgyzstan records for 5k 10k 21k and 42k.

Like marathon Mau, among amateurs not among

professionals. Yeah, that's a fact that

Jason Baum: have you ever thought about participating in

the Olympics?

Kainar Kamalov: I'm not that. And it's a lot of effort. You

have no kid so many crazy hours.

Jason Baum: Yeah, but you That's awesome. Congratulations on

that. That's That's great. So you want to be remembered for

your your running? Is that what you're saying? After this

podcast? Yeah, yeah, see, I'm putting the pressure on

Kainar Kamalov: the better thing. Interesting actually, we

just agential Running is I'm a coach, I'm a running coach as

well part time right and, and I think has to do with

communications and accountability all the time. So

we have I'm coaching six people and they've been showing great

results and they've been winning local starts as well. So I think

that that speaks to just being like able to communicate and

make sure you build this trust and and they execute on so many

Jason Baum: traits right and coaching and then can be applied

in Business and Management and culture shifts and all those

things right i mean it's it's it's so similar very much and a

lot of the things that we hold true you know, for sports can

easily be applied. Yeah, thanks so much for being with us today

Kiner and for for doing this. It's it's not super late by you,

but it's pretty late by you when we're recording this. I really

appreciate your you're staying up to do this. And I know you're

going to be up for a long time because you work with folks in

the States but I really put reciate it.

Kainar Kamalov: Thank you, Jason. Yeah. Thanks for having

me.

Jason Baum: Absolutely. And thanks for listening to this

episode of the humans of DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this

episode the same way I always do encouraging you to become a

member of the DevOps Institute to get access to even more great

resources just like this one. Something fun that I'm going to

announce. It's, maybe I'll drop a hint on this episode, and give

you more information on future ones. We are building something

at DevOps Institute. We call ourselves a community we are

community. Let's just put it this way. That's going to be

even more true, even more true, even truer going forward. So, a

little more on that on a future episode. And until next time,

stay safe, stay healthy, and most of all, and stay human,

live long and prosper.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of

DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get

access to even more great resources like this. Until next

time, remember, you are part of something bigger than yourself.

You belong