Narrator: You're listening to the humans of DevOps podcast, a

podcast focused on advancing the humans of DevOps through skills,

knowledge, ideas and learning, or the SK il framework.

Mason Mclead: Like this is very much a team effort kind of

domain that we're in and measuring at the individual.

It's just the wrong place to measure. You're going to measure

at a higher level, like what is the overall input and the

overall output? And how is that affecting your consumers?

Jason Baum: Hey, everyone, it's Jason Baum, Director of Member

experience at DevOps Institute. And this is the humans of DevOps

podcast. Welcome back. Hope you had a great week, last week.

This week, we have another great episode planned for you, we're

going to dive in to what engineering origin orgs need to

know in order to attract, retain and ensure the highest levels of

productivity from their DevOps teams. This is a big topic, I

think, is really relevant. I know. At some point, during the

conversation, we're going to get into the great resignation,

something that's very topical going on right now. And so much

more. And with me to discuss this topic, is our guest, Mason

McLean. And Mason is the CTO of software comm a DevOps matrix

platform that helps teams measure and improve their

organization's DevOps performance. He leads the design

and development of the company's technology platforms and

products, which collect data across the stack, analyze over

20 million daily events from its community of over 250,000

developers, and create valuable metrics and insights for

engineering teams. Mason is here with me right now. And we're

really happy to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for

joining us.

Mason Mclead: Thanks, Jason. I'm looking forward to this

conversation. I think we got a lot to talk about.

Jason Baum: Awesome. Yeah, I agree. And so with that, are you

ready to get human?

Mason Mclead: Let's do it. Awesome.

Jason Baum: So let's just go right into, you know, how is

DevOps productivity measured?

Mason Mclead: Yeah, I mean, it, it is kind of interesting that,

you know, the way that I see DevOps is, its purpose is really

to make the systems and the developers more productive. So

when we say that we're measuring DevOps, productivity, we're like

measuring the productivity of people making productivity. So,

so I think it's kind of silly to say in a sentence, but when you

think about it, if your people that are working for you, there,

their job is to make other people's work better, if their

work is better, you get a multiplier effect on it. So

we're kind of measuring an even an even more important level of

productivity for these DevOps systems and the people that put

them into place, as well as their their end result of having

a well running system that, you know, in to get on the human

side of it, that's not frustrating for people to work

in, that isn't holding people back, as developers put a lot of

time and effort and DevOps engineers as well into what they

build, and putting it into then a pipeline to get it out to

production, that just is all starts and stops and is

frustrating and takes a long time. Like, it's a really easy

way to make people frustrated and less satisfied. So when

we're measuring DevOps productivity, we're measuring

the productivity of all of that. And, you know, the approach that

that we've taken, is really to measure at the system level. So

there's a concept called Value Stream Mapping, it comes from

manufacturing and other places, you know, historically, but it's

been applied to development and DevOps much more recently. And,

you know, the main concept to come out of that is you measure

as close to the customer at the beginning as you can, and as

close to the customer at the end, as you can. So when did a

request come in? And then when was that request fulfilled? And

when did the customer actually see it and get their hands on

it? And so by measuring the time between those two things, you

got your overall lead time. You can see how productive that that

isn't in that terms. And then you can cut it into the main

pieces of what it takes to create whatever the the feature

is, or refine whatever it is. Put it into review. How's your

team jumping on to that if you're doing photo request

reviews? How quickly does it go through tests? Are they failing

often does it take a long time to get through that stage? What

is your pipeline look like to get to production and how long

does that take and another manual steps, how often are

people doing it, you have a schedule, all those things, you

can start to piece together into this big map of what it takes to

get something from beginning to end. And the customer then has

what they've asked for. And you know, they've got internal

customers, of course, in a company, you've got the the

final, external customer. So all those things can get measured in

that way. And that's the view that we look at there. And I

think that it's an important distinction to look at it from

the customer's point of view, versus what I see a lot of

people fall into the trap of is stack ranking your engineers and

saying, This person made this many pull requests in two days

versus this many pull requests this, and we've got this like

eternal stack rank, whose only purpose that I've seen is to,

like devalue people at the bottom. And, and really give a

very, in incomplete story to what's going on in your team. So

we avoid anything like that, completely. In our product,

there is no individual data that you can see about an individual

as a manager as another team member, you can see yours, but

the team sees theirs. And that's the line that we draw there.

Jason Baum: So it's all in one, it's how is your team

performing?

Mason Mclead: Exactly. Yeah, I mean, it's extremely rare, I

think, for an individual to make massive product contributions at

a bigger, even if you've got a few people on your team, like

this is very much a team effort, kind of domain that we're in and

measuring at the individual level, misses, context, misses

communication, it misses, if you're pair programming, it

misses all these sorts of things that go into development. And so

it's just the wrong place to measure. You gotta measure at a

higher level, like, what is the overall input and the overall

output? And how is that affecting your consumers?

Jason Baum: Yeah, and we'll, we'll come back to that. Because

I have a lot of feelings about that and an experience. And not

just, you know, we look at customer experience, we spent so

much time on customer experience where we think, and the

collective we lack is employee experience. And I think that's

why we're seeing what is happening right now, in the job

market. So let's go back to productivity, though. And just

to address so when you see low levels of productivity, so you

know, you're measuring the team, you're seeing low levels of

productivity, what does that mean? Is that when you start

isolating individuals, how do you how do you what does it

mean? And how do you address it? Yeah,

Mason Mclead: so you know, it. The interesting thing that, that

comes about, when you start measuring these things, is when

you see your actual numbers, the, what it means to you, and

like how impactful it is, is, is very different than when you

kind of think about what you're going to measure. And so for

example, we had a period a couple of months ago, where our

time to get pieces of work into merged into the main branch was

shooting up like really, really fast. And, you know, we realized

that people reviewing, like, we looked at that there was no

delay there, there was no lack of work coming in to the this

process. And people were working, it was effective, we

knew what we were working on. So it wasn't like a product

management sort of issue, or prioritization, we found that,

you know, this was on our data pipeline, we didn't have a very

good way to test. And so what we did is we kind of paused what

we're doing there, we built a staging environment. For our

data pipelines, which is not that common. It's kind of, I

think data is at a moment where it's becoming more software

engineering than traditional data analytics. And us being a

data product, it's, you know, very much what we do. So, you

know, what we found is that low level of productivity as you can

measure it, kind of from the end to end results there was due to

us not having the right system in place to address quality

concerns and, and making, you know, the team really wanted to

make sure that it was correct when it hit production, which I

agree with, so I was very happy that they were doing that and

you know, they were just missing a tool. So we put that in place,

and now it's you know, smoothed out and and that issue was

resolved. So that's what I look for. Whenever I see low

productivity coming through a system, usually there's

something wrong with that system. Now on the case that you

brought up, like, is it individual? Like, when do you

start looking into that? Right? I think that's where you, as a

manager, probably already know, like, if that's your first

inclination, you probably already have a name in mind, of

who that probably is. And then it comes in, you know, you, you

pick it up during stand ups, you pick it up during check ins, or

you know, weekly project reviews, stuff like that. You

know, that's the management side of it, and the human side of it,

that is different than measuring systems. And I think, you know,

I haven't seen yet a good measurement that can isolate

that type of performance, those kind of like individual

performance issues in a way that doesn't, you know, suffer from

getting mixed signals from just other types of behaviors that

goes on in your organization. So I would say, you, I mean, people

can people do measure individual performance, I would suggest to

never do that at this point. And, you know, that's where the

human part of being a manager or being a people manager comes in.

I've had this, you know, several times over my career were, in

one time, when I years ago, I brought in a system that did

actually stack rank everyone, because I already knew that this

person wasn't a good fit, and that they could do better

elsewhere. But I needed like I was, I was newer into

management, I wasn't feeling confident in my decision with

that. So I brought in a tool to tell me what I already knew. And

then, like, I, you know, so I had it there. And then I, you

know, had the human conversation and everything was much better

after we had that conversation, and found that person a new

place. And they're doing great, by the way, and great. Yeah,

they move to a different state, and they like a manager

somewhere else they're doing, they're doing awesome. But that

that system that was in place, I told the rest of the team that I

had it, and within a month, they revolted like it was gone. So I

think,

Jason Baum: did you see a productivity issue with that

when when you brought that in?

Mason Mclead: You know, it didn't affect productivity,

because I think the whole team was very dedicated already. And

there was nothing wrong, what that what that kind of tool told

me was, the people that I already knew were amazing, are

amazing. And the one person that I knew wasn't a good fit wasn't

a good fit. So that's the

Jason Baum: problem with tools, right? Yeah. Especially when it

comes to a human issue, because it is hard. You know, some

things just can't be put into an algorithm, Some things just

can't be. And culture. I think there's a lot of things out

there that try and a lot of things to do. So that do it.

Well, depending on what it is. We spoke to Dan papayas, who's

the CEO of range a few weeks ago, and range is actually a

great product, I actually started introducing it in my

team just to test it out. And not to talk too much about that.

But I'll just say there's something to it, because it's

about like, what they do that's different is mood mapping, which

is different, because that that doesn't give you an insight into

performance. But it gives you an insight into the minds of the

people who are performing about what's going on. That said you

can only get what people are willing to share. But that goes

back to kind of the grand topic of what we're talking about here

with levels of productivity is also what can the organization

do to maybe get that right talent? And then when you do

have those star performers that you're talking about, how do you

retain them? And that's a big question. And that's something I

think a lot of organizations are struggling with right now.

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Mason Mclead: Yeah, I agree. I mean, it. I think on both sides

of those, that's always the hard thing. I mean, competition is

fierce for talent, there's more and more software companies, you

know, coming into existence every day, they need to hire

software engineers, and traditional companies that

weren't doing their own software engineering now are. So they're

hiring. So you've got big names, you've got new startups, all of

that searching for people to come and, and provide value in

software development. So it's a it is challenging at times to

hire really good people. And, you know, software.com is a

fully remote company. So I find that to be a huge advantage that

we can find really skilled people really smart people

anywhere. And we're not geographically confined to, you

know, Southern California or the Bay Area, not that there's a

lack of people there. But you know, your your, if you are in

in office only place, which obviously, things have changed

very much recently. But if your plan is to go back to only at

the office, you're geographically confining

yourself, again, to that competitive space to that talent

pool. And one of the things that can really open up, your ability

to hire really great people is to just open up where you can

hire from. And, you know, it's, it's a transition that we've all

or most of us have had to make over the past two years coming

up on three years. Geez.

Jason Baum: It's kind of kind of crazy. I now, this is it. Yeah,

it's actually the fourth. What is it? 2019? Yeah. So so we're

this is actually the fourth calendar year, which is even

insane to think about. But now, do you think that so the

pandemic, obviously, so let's talk about that a bit more,

because the pandemic played a huge role in what's going on?

Both from the organization standpoint, and the talent

standpoint, you know, the employee standpoint. Do you

think that when we made that shift remote, it was sort of a

wake up call to organizations that, hey, we can do this. And

it's, it wasn't that hard. Everybody kind of made the

transition within a couple of weeks. And people thought that

this, this was going to take years to make up if we're going

to go to an all I mean, I remember people talking about

that this is going to take forever to go to all remote.

It's not even a possibility. And now that we are able to go back

to the office, many places, many places are opening back up. Do

you it's amazing to see we have a career board. On our website,

there's ones all over, it's amazing to see how many jobs are

actually still isolating themselves to a talent pool by

on site only. I think even hybrid in some instances, like

when you're hiring new talent, it's interesting to me, because

why not open up yourself to everybody?

Mason Mclead: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, the that transition that

was made, and it was so fast, and people just responded, and

we're able to go and do it. I think that there's a couple

things going on there. One, I think a lot of the engineers or

people that went remote, they had a sneaking suspicion that

they could have done that the whole time already. And that the

office wasn't really necessary. I think other organizations

inside of business feel differently about that. And

they, you know, need or really desire that in person, energy

and feeling and like that's, that's what they really wanted

to see. You know, I think a lot of people already knew that

they, in the back of their minds that this could be done. But I

think one of the reasons that that transition was so

successful for most people, is that everyone had to do it all

at once. It wasn't a Okay, a couple people can go work

remote. And then it may be a couple more if that works out.

Okay. Because at that point, you're now split. You're in this

mixed state of some people, right? A lot of people still at

the office, and the communication style is now

split. And that's a culture issue too. Yeah. And which means

it doesn't work. Yeah. Like Hallway Conversations are still

the norm in that type of situation. And so the people

that are now working remote, have a communication

disadvantage, because they're not there to do that. And it's

not being written down. Written language, you know, not

surprisingly, is the one thing that makes all of this stuff

work. And when everyone had to go remote, you had to write it

down. Once you got tired of being in a Zoom meeting all day,

right. So like what people learn, Oh, get like, we don't

have to do that all day, I could just write something down, make

a document, send a message, even like Slack in all the threads

and everything you can get into is better than being on a zoom

call all day. Because you can go back to it like we do our stand

ups extremely quickly, because we write it all down. And we

don't just like read it to each other. Again, like we know that

we can read refer back to right, right. So it's like, if you have

a blocker, bring it up, otherwise, move on and like get

to the actual work. So it streamlines that type of

communication really well. And I think that's what made it work

is that everyone had to do it all at once. And so you made

that whole communication shift.

Jason Baum: Yeah, because we had remote work before I, you know,

we had telecommuting, I was actually working remote right

before the pandemic for a year and a half. And you know, what,

I was actually an employee who was remote when the majority of

the company was not, and you're right. So my office was in

Chicago, I'm in New Jersey, New York area. And I would have to

fly out there. But yeah, I mean, there's so many conversations

that when I would fly out there, and I would spend time, it's

like, I just picked up a year's worth of information in a week,

or something. And and yeah, now when we're all remote, we're all

on the same page. We're on the same boat. i It does worry me

with every with people going back. Yeah, that that's going to

happen again, in hybrid spaces. But but as a chief executive,

you know, is is there a piece of you that wonders with with

people going back? Are we making this decision? And again, it's

the general we, for motion, like to just to make some people feel

better? Because they want to be around people? Or is there a

lid? Because for business reasons, there are so many

reasons not to do it overhead? I mean, there's so many that I

could list out that when people are making usually a financial

decision, I feel like there are so many checkmarks that we have

learned to make remote work, sort of a standard. Is this

like, I don't know, is this a very emotional decision? Because

people want to be back in an office with people?

Mason Mclead: I think it really is. I mean, we've got some data

that we're still refining about people that are working in an

office with other people and people that are working remotely

and what the difference in like, even in low level metrics of how

much time they're spending coding, what's the actual raw

output of that. And it's, you know, for if you average all the

kind of cohorts, it's roughly the same. So if you as a

business are making, you know, rent payments of, instead,

you're like a medium sized to do $10 million a year. And you're

getting roughly the same, possibly worse productivity from

your engineers and your software company, you've wasted $10

million, that could have been used to hire more people. And so

let's take even the case where the productivity is 5% less. You

could have hired more engineers for $10 million a year, like

that annual budget can go a long way than having the office or,

you know, cut aside you know, a few million so that you can have

quarterly or semi annual get togethers and like go have fun

together. Because I think that the human bonding side of it is

important. Yeah, and seeing each other in person is important. We

still do that. It's software, we're we don't have an office

anywhere we never have. But we still get together. We're

planning a trip right now. For everyone to come and go surfing

at the beach. So you know, love that. So you know, really fun

stuff like that, that that does make a difference. So I think

people are looking for that connection again. Especially if

they've been isolated in during the pandemic like before, and

you know, it kind of talked from startup land before the

pandemic, the the cultural center of our lives work and the

people that we work with and what we're doing and the mission

of the company and In the effort of doing that, and going to the

happy hours, and like that was where you spent time with

people, and you learn new things. And that was missing all

of a sudden, and there wasn't a replacement, because we couldn't

go out and do stuff. Or at least not nearly as much stuff as we

could before.

Jason Baum: And you could only sit on a zoom happy hour for so

long. Yeah,

Mason Mclead: like awkwardly talking over each other, it

doesn't work the same. So I think, yeah, people definitely

want that we're human, we desire to have that community, and work

for a lot of people is that community, I think, if we stay

in this full remote mode long enough, we'll have our work

community. But we'll realize that we have time to actually

have our own communities as well. And that will start to

take on more importance, then, co workers and everything else.

So like, I'm fortunate enough to have a family that I live with.

So like, I'm busy taking care of the kid hanging out with the

wife, and doing all that. So you know, I've got my community

there. I've got friends down the street. And that's the part that

makes up what I used to have, because I used to be in the

office. Man, I'm embarrassed to say how many hours a day how

many hours a day? Yeah. And, you know, that was that was it? And

so, you know, there's, there's, I think there has to be a

replacement for most people, because we desire that. I think

we can find it in better ways outside of being back at the

office.

Jason Baum: Yeah, I feel so strongly about this, this issue.

So I'm going to try to tone it down. But, you know, go knock on

the pulpit here. But I believe there always needs to be a

little bit of a separation here of church and state, so to

speak. You know that with that, especially coming out of college

and starting in the workforce, many people make their adult

quote unquote, friends through work, right. And I get that,

especially if you're single, if you're young, that there is you

know, this this is where potentially you make friends,

you make some connections, who knows. But, but for those of us,

like you said, you know, we we have families, we have the

frame, we have friends, we have what we, you know, I think what

makes us happy, I think over the past few years. Happiness, at

least for me, and I know a lot of people feel this way. We've

we've done our introspection, there's been a lot of

introspect. We had a lot of time to kind of sit there. And

especially with without the outside noise for two plus years

now. Yeah, we didn't have the noise. And and yeah, I think we

reassessed maybe our what, what is valued when it comes to

social interaction, especially.

Mason Mclead: And I, you know, I think that segues great into the

topic of the great resignation, yes, as well. Because I think

that's, that is the underlying cultural current that is driving

a lot of that, where we've had that time to go, Wait a minute,

my entire life, isn't that. So why was it consuming my entire

life? In a

Jason Baum: matter of hours? Like I just said,

Mason Mclead: Mm hmm. And so, you know, that is, I think, a

key driver of it. I think another is, you know, now that

people kind of have that competence going, Okay, this

isn't my entire life, they can look at it much more, you know,

sort of mathematically about like, okay, is this a good

working environment? For me? And, you know, of all the things

that we were talking about earlier with the measurements,

that's where you can start to see like, is the system even

built? Well, for me to work in? Am I able to actually do good

work, or is it just going to be frustrating? The entire time.

And if you find yourself as, as the company, with a system that

just frustrates the people trying to work in it, like

you're going to find that they're going to find somewhere

else. It also, I think it's a culture critical to invest in

that DevOps in order to make the system better, and also to make

the developer experience better. And obviously, speaking directly

about software engineers, but making developer experience

better making it be a more streamlined collaborative

environment to get that work done. And again, measuring in a

way that feels safe, not one that like goes and makes the

stack rank so you can like, cut the 10% and higher again, and

you know, those kinds of very aggressive management techniques

that have been talked about over the decades.

Jason Baum: Yeah, cuz I'm wondering with a great

resignation, you know, how many of the people leaving so so

There's, I think a few things going on here. You have people

leaving their jobs because they're unhappy with something

going on the culture, like you said, I mean, most of it, I

would say is culture right now, like, like you were alluding to.

And I think most one of the first things people ask on job

interviews is, how's the culture? What about the cult,

you know, they want to dive into the culture more. So I would

say, in some cases, I have a very good friend who just left a

very important position in a very big well known company,

mainly because of culture, and gave it up because of culture.

And I know that they're not the only ones who are doing that

right now. But then how many people are then? Okay, so that

person left that job? That's like a dream job to someone

else, they're gonna go fill that job? How long is it until they

leave? That it's like an endless, you know, you know,

what I'm trying to say here? But what are some things that that,

you know, software.com does to, you know, attract great talent,

but more importantly, retain it?

Mason Mclead: Yeah. So, I mean, for attracting I mean, we, we

hire from anywhere we have, you know, the, the normal sorts of

perks of unlimited PTO, the things the bullet lists, the

healthcare and all that stuff, those are, that's just how you

get in the door. Like, you've got to have those things in

order. You know, I've been able to, thankfully draw from my

network, and, and then people here, draw from their network,

and pull people in that they know, are really good. And so

it's, you know, it. At that point, I think it really

something that we've been able to do, and it'll it'll be

different for everyone is, when you've got those long

relationships, and you've got people that you can trust and

trust you, that is so valuable. And if you're hiring people that

you know, that you don't know, yet, they're new to the company

new to you, if you can kind of get a sense of Are they someone

that you can trust, and like they've got those relationships,

then if you need to hire more people, they'll have that

network there that you can pull from. And then, you know, that's

how we kind of brought in a lot of our senior people. And we've

had a great intern program as well, that we've that we brought

people on full time. And, you know, being able to actually

spend the time to invest in them, when they're interns, and

then give them real work and real support, that makes a huge

difference. So that, you know, you're not just pulling from the

same networks, because that will eventually dry up and you don't

always need to hire senior people then shouldn't at a

certain point, we good to have multilayers there. So I think I

am a big fan of bringing in interns and training them up

and, and having them available to join as well and making it a

good place for them to join. So that that's, you know, some of

the things we've done on the attraction side. At bigger

companies that I've worked at, I've done other things that we

could talk about if you want, but we're like I hired entire

teams from startups that that are going out of business and,

and, and all that. So but on the on the retention side, which I

think is essential.

Jason Baum: Yeah, I think that's the most important, right, yeah,

Mason Mclead: it's, you know, I've got someone today who's

taking taking a day off, so that they said that they're taking a

sanity day, because they just got too much stuff to catch up

on in their life. And I was, like, great. And we got a bunch

of messages saying, I love those days, I hope you have a good one

to have some relaxation to so like, the amount of support that

people feel on not just their work and what they're doing and

prioritization, making sure they're working on important

things. But them as a person is a huge area for optimizing

further attention to us kind of, you know, more more techie words

there, but it's a, I think that's just, that's the key to

is like really caring about them as a person, giving them time to

do what they need to do. And, and also, you know, with the

amount of work that you're putting on people and what

you're asking of them, making sure that they understand the

why of it, making sure that they understand, you know, if there

is a deadline, why is there a deadline, and if it's

artificial, which many are which is totally fine, because it

helps you segment work. Let them understand that. You know, if it

isn't done on the first, nothing blows up on the second. Like,

it's okay, if it doesn't make it but like, that's what we're

shooting for. So let's like reasonable under certain

reasonable estimations of what time things will take to get

done, the ability to control that workflow, so that they, you

know, they understand why it's getting done, what's the core

thing that they're trying to do, and then they're the ones doing

it, they have the best knowledge about how it works. So if

there's something that needs to get cut, or gets reworked, they

need to be empowered to be able to do it, to make it fit within,

you know, the agreed upon timeline that we've set aside

for doing that thing. So I think it's empowerment, at work, it's

support on their personal lives. And, and you don't have to be

best friends in order to do that, like, you know, it's I'm

not trying to say like, you have to be as soft as possible in

like, in, you know, just hang out with all of your coworkers.

This is very much work related. And, you know, there's a lot of

things that I don't know about people because they have their

personal lives. And I'm at work, and they have personal lives.

And like, I think that's one of the big things is making sure

that you've got a distinction there, they've got work

relationships, you've got good communication, because that's

essential to getting it done. But that they can go and take a

sanity day and do their stuff. And they don't have to explain

it away.

Jason Baum: Trust trust from the organization, that you're hiring

him that you're hiring adults. I think that's like the key.

Everyone just wants to be treated like an adult. And I

think we're the good organizations get that. I think

that's kind of that's, that's the summarize what I'm hearing

is, you're treating people like adults that they can handle

handle the workload, they can understand the workload, they

can do it in their time and, and not feel pressured, but at the

same time know what the objectives are. I think that's

all we want, right is to be seen and treated as adults. Yep.

Yeah. I think that's a great, great place to kind of to end.

Mason, I really appreciate you coming on the podcast, we do ask

one last question. And this is kind of more, you know, we are

about the human side. So this is kind of getting to know you. I

love this one last question. If you could be remembered for one

thing, what would it be?

Mason Mclead: I mean, the first thing that popped in my head was

for being kind.

Jason Baum: That's awesome. I love that. I love that. Yeah, I

think we need a lot of kindness in this world, especially right

now. And I think this world would be a completely different

place. If, if more people saw it that way, for sure. Mason, thank

you so much for coming on. I really appreciate your time.

Really appreciate it. Appreciate everything you had to say. This

was such a timely topic. And it was a lot of fun talking about

it

Mason Mclead: with you. Yeah. Thanks, Jason. I appreciate it.

And thanks

Jason Baum: for listening to this episode of the humans of

DevOps Podcast. I'm going to end this episode the same way I

always do, encouraging you to become a member of DevOps

Institute to get access to even more great resources just like

this one. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and most of

all, stay human, live long and prosper.

Narrator: Thanks for listening to this episode of the humans of

DevOps podcast. Don't forget to join our global community to get

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