Andy Polaine: Hi, welcome to Power of Ten. A podcast about

design operating at many levels zooming out from thoughtful

detail through to organisational transformation, on on to changes

in society and the world. My name is Andy Polaine. I'm a

design and innovation consultant, design leadership

coach, educator and writer. My guest today is making her second

appearance on Power of Ten. It's Tutti Taygerly, welcome Tutti.

Tutti Taygerly: Thank you, Andy, excited to be on.

Andy Polaine: Tutti is an executive leadership coach and

professional speaker for those of you who haven't heard her in

the last time. She supports CEOs and tech leaders to embrace

their unique leadership style to achieve professional impact. She

works closely with women, people of colour and immigrants and has

a particular love for difficult in air quotes people.

Previously, she was the design leader at design firms, startups

and large companies, including Disney and Facebook. She's

written for Business Insider and Fast Company. And she's just

written a new book called Make Space to Lead that shows high

achievers how to reframe our relationship to work today.

Welcome. Thank you. So the last time we spoke was a while ago,

we were just saying kind of near the beginning of this pandemic,

actually, I think it was the beginning of last year, or

spring last year. So you've been on you've been on quite a

personal journey, it seems in that time, what do you been up

to since the last time I spoke?

Tutti Taygerly: Ah, so much. I think I think the last time we

spoke, I was in the middle of Coach Training through the

coactive Institute. And since then, I think that I've stepped

in a feeling really comfortable as an entrepreneur with hate to

use this word, but with a portfolio of work from

supporting CEOs of startups, leaders, and tech companies,

designers on non designers in one on one coaching, running

group programmes running my first in person retreat, which

was beautiful, it was about a month ago to actually work with

a group of women in person. And then for a lot of this last

year, I've been writing, hence this book coming out a lot of

the thinking and framing and I would say sharpening of the

different messages that I've been going through myself and

working with people on coming out in the book.

Andy Polaine: So I've got a question of if you've been busy.

Tutti Taygerly: Andy Andy. And so I think they say that we we

teach what we most need to learn. I've been working with

two separate book coaches over this year in writing the book.

And this is what happens in our sessions. They always start with

how busy Have you been how packed has been your schedule,

and is actually the second book coach who basically gave me a

very inspired tip, which is to only right when I'm in flow. And

I find that that happens the most, if I start out the morning

surfing, so if I start out the morning, out in the ocean

surfing, relax. When I come back, all I want to do is right.

So I am busy, but it's a state of being I would say not busy.

I'm actively in flow, creating producing a lot of things. And

yes, I am busy a lot too.

Andy Polaine: Yeah. Okay. As you know, it was a you know,

facetious question because obviously, this is one of the

things you're talking about is making space and actually

getting away from the busyness and, you know, I had a little

kind of European chuckle at there was a line in the book

where he said, You know, it's only when we take a longer

vacation of a week or preferably two or three, which for

Europeans is a short, you know, three weeks is a short vacation...

Tutti Taygerly: right? Absolutely. It's very American

to be out for days. That's my vacation.

Andy Polaine: Yeah, yeah. So you know, it's incredible how that

kind of it's getting shorter and shorter is actually happening in

Australia, koala Australia used to be quite good on that. And

it's, it's now I think, one of the nations who have kind of the

least kind of vacation America still tops the list. You know,

you talked about surfing a lot actually, in your book is a I

got the feeling that there was a lot of thinking around the book.

Whilst you were surfing I'm not thinking I don't know if that's

true. A lot of what I would call the sort of the stewing you

know, the sort of I think writing a book or writing

anything actually is a large part of kind of, for me, I call

it stewing talk to an Italian the other day who said yeah,

it's a it's a minestrone, right, you know, it's one of those

things you have to kind of let it gradually cook to really get

out the flavours but I think it's one of the things that you

know, to make sense of it. So how much was inspired by surfing

because you even have an acronym in there to

Tutti Taygerly: idea I do have an acronym to remember the state

of being by surf su RF. But to your question, I remember when

when I worked actively as a design leader making products I

talked a lot about gestation time, which is the same thing,

the stewing time this minestrone time. And I don't even think

it's for for writing, I think it's for for everything we do

whatever thing we're trying to make create problem solve. And

absolutely I, I do that when I surf, not necessarily in the

active part of paddling, going for a wave, riding the wave, but

in a lot of the sitting. I think many people think that surfing

is a very active sport, because when you see it, you see people

up and riding the wave and going down the line. But the reality

is you spend a lot of time sitting, spend a lot of time

sitting, floating, bobbing, watching, watching the horizon

to see when the next set is going to come. And that is very

conducive for introspection. And to your point around the around

what I call gestation, it's, you let an idea sit with you

overnight for a couple days when when you're in the shower, when

you're out walking, or for me after when I'm out surfing,

that's when something pops and then you know what to do next,

you know, you get an insight, you get something to to unstick

you and show you the path forward.

Andy Polaine: Yeah, I think there was a, I think Adam Grant,

there was a sort of thing that he had written a little while he

probably posted it too. But so it said it was one of the things

that I tweeted his kind of went around and about this idea of,

you know, downtime, or is not wasted time. And this idea. And

I really find that, you know, if you're really really busy, you

just don't have kind of time to think and my belief is not be

interested in seeing. So you coach some of these people, I

have a kind of belief that I think CEOs should be the least

busy people in the organisation because their decisions carry

often the greatest weight, and therefore they should have some

time to kind of think about those things. And the opposite

is usually the case, right? I mean, I've had plenty of

situations where someone said, Well, okay, yeah, we've got 15

minutes for the CEO to present this thing for you know, and

it's some really kind of important thing or millions of

dollars. And I think, you know, who thinks they can make a

decision like that in 15 minutes without some reflection and some

time? What's your view on this? Because you, you coach CEOs,

right? Especially startups?

Tutti Taygerly: I do I do. So two perspectives on this. And

this is this is related to zooming up and down, as well. My

guess is that for some of the CEOs that I coach, they have

different perspectives on a problem. So if it is a problem

that most of the time, their teams, the people who work for

them can handle them at some points in time, 15 minutes is,

is enough, because they built up the context of it over time they

understand it, especially most of the CEOs, I coach, our

founders, co founders, which means they are deeply

passionately embedded in the space of their company. So in a

way they understand it, and have been with the ideas and concepts

longer than anyone else. So with that, I'd say for some of these

more zoomed down decisions. 15 minutes, I think is enough. And

all of these CEOs still struggle with what is the day to day

firefighting crisis? And then how do you zoom out and make

space make time to look at what is long term out, and long term

can be long term can be six months, it can be 235 years. And

for that, I believe they need the time and the space. My cat

is just on my lap. So you might hear her her

Andy Polaine: cat is making making space they were fighting

earlier, too. So if anyone hears that in the background, I find

it quite relaxing. And it's one of those things you could just

going to put on. Just let me sign up for a second let people

record

Tutti Taygerly: it. What's the vibration of her on my lap like

that is another thing that reminds me to slow down and make

space because I've got a pet my cat?

Andy Polaine: Yeah, cats aren't particularly hectic animals,

although they're quite soothing. So you know, there's lots we

could talk about around your book, I can you've caught it

make space to lead. And you're very honest and open in your own

story. It's kind of leading there. And it sort of runs all

the way through of your kind of own experience. And you know,

you're very honest about this, this relationship between what

you call your achievement monster, and finding somehow the

other side of it, but working in a culture in an environment

where everyone's meant to have an achievement monster will be

one. And, you know, hopefully, if we're doing it right, mine's

better than yours. And all that stuff is sort of hyper

competitive. And I've got a bunch of questions around here.

But what point did you feel like you know, here's something I

think I can kind of share and I can write about what was there a

kind of triggered to this or was it something that improved over

time?

Tutti Taygerly: So I think the biggest trigger for writing

externally about this was to really capture and better

understand my own process. A lot of researchers talk a lot about

research is actually me research trying to understand more of our

own personal growth and journey. And while I've always journaled,

I had not publicly written and blogged. And that's something

that I started doing. When I left the corporate world, I

think I wrote my first public blog, the month where I stopped

working at Facebook, my last corporate job. Yeah. And for me,

that was never intended to be a book or anything like that. It

was more, hey, this is a journey that I'm going through. I found

these messages have resonated with a lot of my peers,

especially many design leaders during a performance review

season or trying to have more of a say in the roadmap, we'll put

our hands up and be like, why are we doing this? Why are we

putting so much of our hearts and souls into it? I talked to a

lot of people feeling very overwhelmed and overworked. And

this is even in the years pre COVID. So there was something

about it, where I wanted to write to capture my journey and

to share it with other people. And as we both know, Brene Brown

talks about this catharsis vulnerability, of sharing of

making a connection. And I mean, that was the soup all together

that had me start writing a blog weekly. For me, it didn't start

as confessional it started as sharing my learnings along the

process. And only after doing that, for about two and a half,

some years was there. Maybe after a year, maybe there was

more of a point of view, there was a feedback loop, There were

articles that resonated more with people and articles that

were not read. So it was all an iterative feedback loop for

experimentation. So while it started for me purely and

selfishly, it became this way for me to connect with many,

many people. And many people come in and find me through my

writing right now.

Andy Polaine: Yeah, I call that sort of poking the hornet's

nest, and you've put some articles out there. And

sometimes nothing happens in another time. Often, it's the

things that, you know, a little bit throw away, almost, you

know, what I call brain farts? You know, they're just a little

thing. I think, well, that was kind of interesting might have

been something, a turn of phrase that came up in coaching as a

response to someone and I kind of post it. And those ones

suddenly kind of call us a lot of sort of hubbub in both

directions in sometimes kind of positive and negative.

Tutti Taygerly: Absolutely.

Andy Polaine: So you know, maybe you could kind of talk through,

maybe there's a little bit of the kind of outline of the book.

And I guess the other thing is, obviously, what do you hope that

people are going to do with with a book because there's obviously

one thing is to is to write something, or to present

something. But the other part of it is, you know, what I want

people to do with that.

Tutti Taygerly: You mentioned a little bit ago that I talk a lot

about my achievement monster, and almost every person that I

coach, and almost every person I talked to when I was working at

Facebook, when we got beyond the large meeting sessions, and we

sat down for coffee or had a one on one, everyone confessed to

feeling imposter syndrome. The sense that I don't belong here.

Everyone else is smarter, better, better than I am. And I

I'm a fraud because you know, who am I with my background, my

training more or lack thereof to sit here be in this room amongst

the other giants. And the reason why I bring those two things

together is that we all have these voices. We all have these

be self critics. I call it my achievement monster. One of my

mentors and teachers Shirzad shameen calls it a saboteur, or

a judge, that really tells us these voices that say that

we're, we're not doing it right. We're not good enough, we're

messing up we don't belong. And why talking about the

achievement monster is one of the earlier chapters in the

book, is what I believe helps is realising that these voices are

here. A metaphor I use a lot with clients in tech is we've

all heard of needing to have mentors and sponsors. Instead,

think about in our internal landscape, having a personal

board of directors, and on this personal board of directors are

all these voices. There may be this achievement monster voice

sitting at the table. And at the same time, maybe there are other

voices here of leaders that you've respected of mentors that

you have and every time you're approaching or facing a choice

or a decision. Listen to all those voices hear all of them,

but know that the voice of the achievement monster is most

likely Lighting. And getting familiar with all these voices,

naming them, helps to bring it out into the light a little bit

more and help overcome some of that imposter syndrome.

Andy Polaine: Mm hmm. There's a book by Steven Pressfield, who

wrote a book called The War of Art. And it was, you know, to

flip around of the art of war. And he does brilliant thing in

this. And he's talking about writing his writer, and he's

talking about all the things that get in the way of writing

and some of the stuff we just talked about. But the brilliant

thing he does is he talks about the resistance, as if it's an

external thing that's just out to get you. And it's really

sneaky. And it can get you in lots of different ways. And the

reason why it's called The War of Art, it's kind of like how to

spot the signs that the resistance is coming to get you

and how to protect yourself from it. And of course, you know,

it's an internal thing. But the fact that he externalises, this

as this external force, makes it a completely different in terms

of the way you can relate to that instead of, oh, I'm lazy,

I'm no good, I'm kind of rubbish. It's actually, this

thing's out to get me and I kind of stopped. It was it's, it's

really clever. And I think I think that aspect of naming

things is incredibly important. And I know what your experience

is, is one of the things I've found with Kochi sometimes is

not only naming their things when you're talking about some

naming your fears and kind of looking at your weaknesses and

giving different perspectives on them, but also toxic behaviour

from other people. And I don't mean sort of necessarily going

out and combating that and sort of fighting it head on. But

sometimes, you can quietly name that to the person who's doing

it. You know, and it could be as simple as you know, it feels

like you're trying to bully me here. You know, what brings you

to do that, that kind of completely diffuses and disarms,

sometimes not always, but a lot of the time, I think, actually

kind of naming the thing that's going on the dynamic that's

going in between sort of takes its power away. And I'm

interested, if you've found that at all, with your self or with

your coaches. No, absolutely,

Tutti Taygerly: I'll tell a different side of the story.

Because, as you said, you know, I still am busy, I still

struggle with making space to lead. And the story that you

talked about naming it saying, oh, you know, that feels a

little bit like I'm being bullied. That really resonates

with me, because for, for many, many years, as a leader, I was a

very intense person, a so called air quotes, difficult person, if

you will, because I'm so passionate about about the

ideas. And it took multiple brave souls naming it to me,

saying that, the way that that you talk about these ideas is

like, it's like a hammer or a bulldozer doesn't leave space

for anyone else to express their opinions. And something like

that. horrified me so deeply, because I believe in diversity

and inclusion and making sure everyone's voice is heard. So

simply that that act of naming is, sometimes we can't see these

things about ourselves. So I think it's up to leaders to help

hold mirrors up to other people, and name these traits. And in a

way that can be really, really scary. Because if you're saying

this to someone who's very intense and explosive, and

saying that hole, I'm feeling bullied, that could blow up in

your face. And that can be really, really scary.

Andy Polaine: Yeah, that's why I said it sort of in in, you know,

about naming it in a fairly sort of quiet and not combative way.

Because I think there's a difference to say, you're

bullying me, you know, and I'm feeling this to saying, it seems

like, you know, this is what's going on here, or, you know, I

know, it's very subtle, and it's a subtle language shift. I've

got one little story, I was in a shared sort of studio space that

I mistakenly kind of decided to kind of start form a collective

with some people who I didn't know that, well, a couple of

people I knew very well. And one of the guys was a little bit

immature, he was kind of, but very sort of alpha males. And

I'm not really that kind of guy. And this is on Australia, where

there's this quite a dynamic of that going on. I found him kind

of terribly difficult. And then at one point, we were having

kind of a Rao about, you know, as we were trying to separate

the studio and I've tried to leave and stuff. And he was just

kind of being he was being bullying. And I said, you know,

why are you trying to bully me at the moment in this what what

do you hope to achieve? And he kind of burst forth he said,

Because I'm a man. And I, you know, I just burst out laughing.

And it was this this kind of amazing moment where in that

moment, I named it his whole kind of going in Union terms of

also shadow burst forth and he kind of said the thing that he

sort of secretly or unconsciously was, was feeling

and it kind of just, it took a complete took away his power, of

course, and then I was like, Well, okay, you know, I've won

this argument now. But it just also for me just completely took

away the dynamic and whenever I've had that situation, that

that's actually a thing. Bullying is a thing I respond. I

wasn't even really bullied at school, but I respond badly, I

think to the unfairness of the sense of powerlessness. I think

you know, most people do. Yeah. And I found actually one of the

things of kind of naming it in quite a kind of even way really

helps and, and I feel like a lot of what you're talking about in

the book is really going inside and naming those things for

yourself. And you are simultaneously so reducing the

power of some things and increasing the power of the more

positive things. And it's sometimes a bit

counterintuitive. Like the thing about well, as you talk about

the thing, when you talk about, there's a really, really nice

activity about sort of taking different perspectives on your

weaknesses.

Tutti Taygerly: Can I circle back to your story for a minute,

and this is related to shifting perspectives. There's the naming

of your story with the gentleman you shared the space with in the

studio with. But the other part is that when you actually name

something and get something out of the open, it can be really

funny, as you said, you burst out laughing it out in laughter.

I mean, some of our most tragic, highly emotional moments are

extremely funny. They shouldn't be, but they are and having

something be comic ridiculous, completely outlandish, also

breaks the emotion and breaks the tension and allows different

perspectives to, to come in. And one of the things that that I've

done a lot is I've been trained in improv, yeah, you talk about

that a bit in the book, doing something outlandish saying yes,

and in a brainstorm. Yes. And we will bring my pet mouse into

this particular design exercise and think about what my pet

mouse might do with this concept or whatever else ridiculous

thing. And pulling that back to the question you're asking.

laughter, humour outlandish Enos. That's one way of

providing another different perspective. Yeah. And the

problem is, we get so stuck into the fact that these are my

strengths. And these are my weaknesses. One of one of the

women that I was coaching was a very quiet leader. And she was

convinced that it held her back. It was, she was given feedback

that this was a very outspoken company, she needed to express

her opinion more forcefully, she needed to be a certain way,

because quietness was not part of the culture of this company.

And so for a very, very long time, she knew she absolutely

knew and was stuck that this was this was a weakness. And this

exercise, you talk about this perspective shifting. I worked

on it with her because some of her strengths were very, she was

very empathetic, she was beloved by her team, she was very caring

and supportive. And she was a slower, more contemplative

thinker. Think there's so many different types of thinking

there are people who think very fast on their feet. And these

are the people who who win more in meetings, because they have

something to say immediately. They may be called the bullies

in this in this scenario do because they may dominate the

conversation. And in these scenarios, it can feel that

slowing down not having an immediate response is not a good

thing. This quiet leadership is a weakness. So one exercise is

flipping the perspectives. Coming up with as many different

possibilities about well, what if, what if being quiet was a

strength? What if it was a strength because you can slow

down the speed of the conversation and make sure that

every person in the room is able to give their perspective? So we

don't mistakenly rush into into a strategy that's going to blow

up in our faces? Yeah, what if being quiet is a strength

because you're going to be able to write your perspective, write

your opinion, and send that in a follow up email. Back to the CEO

example, what if, if we take a couple of days to do this or a

weekend before we make this decision, something else will

come up. And a quiet leader may see that opportunity and open up

the space for the team to do that. There's three off the cuff

examples of how a perceived weakness could be a strength.

Andy Polaine: I really liked that story, actually, because I

think it's quite common. I teach. I teach quite a lot. I

coach as well. It's weird. I get it kind of waves of female

coaches and male coaches. And I had one point quite a lot of

female coaches. And this came up quite a lot for the reasons

you're saying, and particularly in Australia, where instead of

pre blokey culture, it's still a sort of fairly kind of loud

blokey culture and there tends to be that kind of dominance of

the loud ones, at least in a meeting. And this particular

Kochi, I'm thinking of she was very smart, very able, really

knew her staff had that thing of when I'm in this room now I get

in and people ask me questions and I can't think of the kind of

facts and figures or the stats or whatever it is off the top of

my head and I feel kind of frozen and had imposter

syndrome, one of the things was to sort of get her to think

about who else in the room knows more about design? She was a UX

person, you know, then you here in the room? Well, no one.

That's why That's why you're there. Right? And but she was

constantly had this thing of, I shouldn't be here. And that kind

of helped, first of all, and I had another coachee, though, who

had that very thing of, you know, I hate it when people put

me on the spot to answer a question, because I really like

to think about it. And I'm just not that kind of person. And so

we worked on him going, just saying, Can you give me just 10

minutes, I'll come back to you about that. And sometimes it

was, it was longer. And I'll give you an answer by the end of

the day, or something like that. And the brilliant thing was,

they did a presentation to this to a client. And the the most

senior stakeholder was this woman who's who said, at the end

of the presentation, thanks very much, I really want to have a

little think about everything you presented to me today, and

I'll get back to you tomorrow, it was just fantastic for him to

see someone very, very senior do that. And I said, how it made

you feel, anyone who actually really made me feel like she had

heard everything we had been talking about and was taking it

seriously, you know, rather than just a kind of glib response,

and then walked out the door. So it's really, really nice to kind

of have that moment where he saw someone very senior do exactly

what he was kind of afraid of doing. And indeed, you know, the

more he did it, and it's a naming thing again, which is to

say, you know, I like to take some time to think about that

thing, rather than pretending that he was fine with coming up

with an answer. And it really, really helped. I want to ask a

question, because you've come from a culture, unfortunately, a

Facebook's being kind of is being pulled through the news a

lot at the moment. But you know, in general, the tech industry

that say, in California, by Silicon Valley, that is heavily

kind of, there's a very, very strong culture of productivity

of doing more of it, all the stuff that you kind of push

against, or at least a kind of, you know, it's a sort of

rallying cry against quite a lot of that in your book about, you

know, we need to make some space. I have a few coaches from

that kind of media to who, you know, sometimes say, I feel like

everyone else is better than me is going to go fast. But at the

same time, then it kind of creeps into the conversation of

actually, I know, loads of other people who are really close to

burnout, but nobody wants to admit it. What do you think is

going on? Where does that come from? You know, in that culture,

why is that even there in the first place?

Tutti Taygerly: So I am really optimistic about Silicon Valley

and tech culture. And I think that there is it's complex. And

there's a paradox there. I think that there is a brilliant, shiny

group of dreamers and thinkers who can imagine what a better

world would be like with technology. And I think that in

itself is a really beautiful thing. That's the North Star,

that's the vision. That is even if you want to call it the

reality distortion field of, of Steve Jobs. And the challenges

come in, in the execution of it. Because there is a, I think, a

false perception that it's urgent, we never have enough

time. If we don't get to product market fit before a certain

time, we're gonna run out of money. If we don't release this

new product line out, our competitors are going to get

there first. If we're not first to market, we're going to lose.

And there is very much this the scarcity model of we must run

faster, we must burn out we must go as quickly as possible

because otherwise someone is going to lose. And I believe

that's part of our part of our culture. It's part of the VC

culture. It's part of the what happens when you go public and

what what we do with with exits. And what's challenging is that

there's this beautiful thing of being able to imagine and

visualise a better future, which is such a sense of of abundance.

And then this this like short term fear culture, reward

system, which is this performance review system, which

happens every three, six months or every year. And it's those

two pushing at each other, which causes this this burnout. The

sense of, even though everyone knows, yes, you need to work

smarter, not harder. You're not on a clock. You are not required

to work 60 hours a week. There is that fear that unless you do

that you won't be as good as everyone else.

Andy Polaine: Yeah, the peer pressure is strong isn't in that

idea that there's you know, there's only so much pie to go

around. Do you think those are structurally resolvable for me

those feel like you know, particularly the structural

thing you just talked about in the second half of that that

feels like those are just destined never to be never to be

resolved.

Tutti Taygerly: So I I think this is a challenging thing to

resolve. And this is one of the reasons why I love working with

CEOs of smaller companies and startups. Because these are the

conversations that we have together. How do we set up a

company culture, so that we are performance, we do hit some of

these, some of these milestones, we make sure we keep marching

towards product market fit, while building a company culture

of respect, equality, where we have people do their best work,

because they do want people to be their most creative and

inspired and working long hours does not help with that.

Andy Polaine: Do you think to use the parlance of the tech

industry, that good intentions, scale?

Tutti Taygerly: Scaling is hard. Scaling is hard. I mean, having

having worked at Facebook, there are many, many good intentions.

And the scaling of it is hard, which is why I think how you

solve it first, as you solve it within a smaller, more

contained, I don't know 50 To 300 person startup,

Andy Polaine: your problems scale to write. And so it feels

like the in that crazy sort of first bit of a startup where

there really isn't any time and we're kind of running on a

shoestring. And everyone is working stupid hours, which I

don't necessarily think have to do. But, you know, for all the

reasons you've just said, you know, if you don't take the time

or make space to look at that and deal with that, then when

you go into, as you scale, you you having less chance to do it,

or you get I was talking to my previous podcast guest about

this idea of sort of ethical debt. You know, you kind of end

up with this problem. I think you end up with sort of cultural

organisational debt, there is way more difficult to to pay off

the technical debt. No, absolutely.

Tutti Taygerly: I think there is the right place for each

individual person to be. And so a concept that I talk about a

lot is force versus flow. Yeah. And I believe that there are

periods in your life where if you are energised, if you are

feeling feeling alive, feeling excited and passionate about

your work, there are periods of time where you can work very,

very long hours. I don't believe it's sustainable for months or

years. And so it's really about the rhythms similar to the

rhythms of of the ocean and the waves, there's going to be times

in your life where you can work with that intensity because it

continues to feel and energise you. And then there's going to

be periods of time where it suddenly feels Oh, this is this

is too much. That same number of hours, weekly hours that you

standardise you now feel like they're burnout. Yeah, the hours

may be the same, but what shifts is how your energy and

excitement about it based on a whole bunch of things, how well

the project's going the relationships between people at

work, how long you've been doing this. And then that's the time

at a personal level to to shift. And what the message that I

wanted to share with this book is that when you get to that

stage, it's okay, to make the space it's okay to rest, it's

okay to slow down. And that will make you I believe, even more

successful, even more energised, do even greater, bigger, more

impactful work, if you do take those periods of rest to slow

down. So it's a difference between sometimes you do need to

go go go and you're energised by it. And other times you're not

because you're not in flow. So that's a little bit of, I think,

the paradox and the self awareness to know when you're in

one versus the other.

Andy Polaine: I think it's not only possible, it's necessary,

right? That, you know, if you don't, you're actually doing a

disservice to the company you're trying to build or the

organisation you're working in. Because more because you burn

out and you end up kind of going down in flames. Absolutely.

We're gonna have to wrap up because we're coming up to time,

but there's a there's a great quote from Mike Vance that I

sort of wanted to end on in your work, which is slowing down is

sometimes the best way to speed up through wires. Yeah. So

listen, when's the book out? It might be out by the time this

podcast comes out. Actually,

Tutti Taygerly: the book comes out on November 2, and will be

widely available. There is my website, make space to lead,

which will give you lots of information in details.

Andy Polaine: And I'll put all the other links of where to find

you in the show notes, too. Thanks so much. It's been lovely

to chat. I feel like we could go on for another hour. I will do

it again sometime. Good luck with the book launch. I'm sure

it'll have great impact, and I'm sure you'll get a lot of

interest in it. Thanks so much for being my guest.

Tutti Taygerly: Wonderful. Thank you Andy.

Andy Polaine: As I'm sure you're aware, you've been listening to

Power of Ten. My name is Andy Polaine. You can find me at a

Polaine on Twitter or follow dot com where you can find more

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guests, all the links are in the show notes. Thanks for listening

and see you next time.