Stuart Lawler: Hello and welcome in to the Sight and Sound technology podcast. My name is Stuart Lawler, great to be back with you on episode number 50.

Stuart Lawler: Well, first and foremost, may I wish you a very, very happy new year. Hope you've all had a good, safe and peaceful Christmas. Great to be back with you as I said. And coming up on today's show, we're checking back in with our CEO, Glenn Tookey to find out the year that was and what's happening in 2022. And I'll be meeting Scott Young, Sight and Sounds relatively newly appointed national account and sales and marketing manager. That's all coming up, stay right where you are.

Stuart Lawler: Before we do all of that though, podcast@sightandsound.co.uk is the email address, if you'd like to get in touch. We always love to hear from you and thank you to everybody who sends in comments and suggestions for the show. They are much appreciated. I can't believe we're on episode 50 already. We started this in September 2018 and of course, as well as our regular podcasts on the feed, you'll find lots and lots of other things that we've done, including webinars, training courses, et cetera. And speaking of training courses, couple of things to tell you, we are launching another series, as if we haven't done enough already, as if you hadn't got enough of this, we're doing some more. BrailleSense Six and indeed BrailleSense Polaris training courses in February, over four Thursdays in February, starting on the 3rd of February 8:00 PM, they'll be running for an hour each week.

Stuart Lawler: We're going to be looking at the BrailleSense file manager, the word processor, the email client and the Daisy player. This is in response to queries we got or feedback we got from people who said, we just want the basics. We want to know some of the basic note taking functionality and how it works. So, that's what we're going to do over four Thursdays. Information will be on the siteandsound.co.uk website. You can register to attend any or all of the sessions. And we will look forward to seeing you starting on Thursday, the 3rd of February.

Stuart Lawler: Now on the 20th of January, that's another Thursday, we're starting our first social hub session of 2022. The social hub of course, is the webinar series that we run in conjunction with our charity partners Seascape up in Fife in Scotland and Seescape's representative on those webinars is Stuart Beveridge, good friend of Sight and Sound. And you've heard Stuart on this podcast before. Well, on the 20th of January, it's an interesting one because the focus is on you, the customer, the listener, the friend, the client, or whatever of Sight and Sound, because we want to know what you would like from Sight and Sound in the coming year and further on. And to help us with that, we'll be joined by Ruth Gallagher-Carr who will be helping us, I suppose, by running a little focus group. I'm really looking forward to this because it's going to be interesting to see the type of feedback that we get. So if you'd like to get involved in that, information is also on the website. You can register to join us on the 20th of January, Thursday, the 20th of January at 2:00 PM.

Stuart Lawler: That's all our announcements done, now let's get on with the show.

New Speaker: Music

New Speaker: It seems rather fitting that on the 50th episode of our podcast, we should check back in with Glenn Tookey, our CEO, something we actually meant to do earlier. But maybe it's fitting not only because the 50th episode, because we're starting a new year. So Glenn, welcome back. Thanks for giving us your time.

Glenn Tookey: Absolute pleasure. 2022, who will believe it.

Stuart Lawler: Indeed. We'll talk a bit about the year that was 2021 in a sec, because there was lots of things going on at Sight and Sound Technology, but maybe just to kick us off, I know you normally try to take a couple of days off around the Christmas break as everybody else does. Did you get a break this year? Did you have time to get yourself recharged for the year ahead?

Glenn Tookey: Yes, I did actually. I was out of the country, I won't say where, but it was somewhere warmer than the UK. But I think the key thing for me was I really, really needed that break Stuart. It's been such an intense two years since the outbreak of COVID and whilst things have gone very well for us, it has meant a huge amount of work. And you just don't realize how focused and intense it's been, particularly with Zoom calls and everything being online. Yeah. I was well ready for that break and I enjoyed it. And here we are back to lovely, gray, drizzly England and 2022.

Stuart Lawler: Okay, good to hear. You did mention COVID and I suppose there's rarely that people chat without mentioning COVID these days. And if we go back 12 months, we were all in very heavy lockdown. Everybody was working from home and we had talked with you previously about how the company was so I suppose, well set up for that in that we brought everybody home and things continued pretty much as normal. Did COVID have a big impact, do you think in the last year for Sight and Sound?

Glenn Tookey: Yeah, I think for 2021, it was, I guess, essentially more of the same. And you'll have found that yourself in the delivery of all the content that you've been putting out, that we got to a very good plan during 2020, it worked very well. So in 2021, our long suffering client base heard lots from us. So I'd say COVID still has had a big impact though. The biggest impact I think is just on the way we do business with ourselves inside the company. Outside the company I think we got to a very good structured approach that works for everybody. We provide our products, our services, our support, and we learned how to do that. Inside the company, and this is the same for everybody listening, I'm sure, it's been a year of in, out, in, out, almost like shaking it all about hasn't it been? Because it's really been changes by the week or by the month. Someone gets COVID, someone else gets COVID, suddenly you have to move departments around, move people around.

Glenn Tookey: So the disruption to our internal operation has been considerable. At times we've had a skeleton staff inside with a lot of other people working from home. And I think that managing that and coping with that and trying to keep that quality of service up, has at times been hard work, but we've achieved it, but it's been tiring. And I think that's it. I don't know if we can do 2022 under exactly the same COVID conditions, something has to change, I think for us. So it has had an impact, but it's been a more longer lasting draggy impact I think than perhaps that short, sharp burst. Right. It happened in March 2020, let's get going, let's change the world. Let's survive. I think we've gone through that stage of it being a short, sharp shock to it being every day. And everything we do every day.

Stuart Lawler: I think it was... And I've had conversations with people about this as well. I think in the first lockdown, it was almost exciting because it was different and what's all this about? But by the time we got to last January or February, it was a real drudge, wasn't it? And we're just trying to get through every day, I think.

Glenn Tookey: I think so. And the year just seems have passed since then, but we've done it. We're back. It's 2022. And even though it's just another day, it's got another number on the end and that gives us a chance to revitalize, refocus, regroup and do it all again.

Stuart Lawler: Okay. Now one of the other things I wanted to chat to you a bit about because you're very proactive around quality and providing a quality service. And I suppose living in this culture of what we would call continuous improvement. And let's talk a bit about the ISO 9001 quality mark which Sight and Sound have been successful in getting and maybe some of the changes that people might have seen in the last year as a result of that.

Glenn Tookey: Yeah. So I think it's had a fantastic impact on the company. When we embarked on it, I may have said this last time, I'll be brief. I was worried about it might make us internally looking. It might focus on writing documents rather than looking after customers. But we implemented it in a very light touch way, in a way that everything we came across, we looked at and decided whether we could do it better or not. And if we could do it better, then we did it better. And I was so pleased and proud to go through our first annual review with zero non-compliances, major and minor. Almost unheard of. And we did that for the main audit to get it in 2020. So we've now covered to four years almost of ISO 9001 accreditation.

Glenn Tookey: And yes, I think the changes are that things that have long... I felt long been Achilles Hills for Sight and Sound. Some things we always didn't do very well, whether it may be following up with customers if something had gone wrong or whatever. Those things come to the top very quickly, within four weeks in the company, they're sitting on my desk and we sit down and work out how we can fix it. And then we go out and fix it. And that's what's different about Sight and Sound. Yeah, things go wrong occasionally. But I think I can confidently say now, nearly two years in, things don't go wrong for the same reason on a regular basis. And I think we are a much better company for our customers for that.

Stuart Lawler: Certainly it's interesting that you say that because in conversations I would have with a lot of people in the company, there's words like feedback form. And I must raise that as an issue. So people are thinking in that mindset now aren't they? Maybe much more than they were a year ago.

Glenn Tookey: People are not concerned, not worried, not scared to put their head up and say something's broken. And people don't take it personally anymore. And they did at the beginning when an internal feedback form was raised. But once we got to 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 100 and people realized that there were things that go wrong regularly that were just never fixed. They felt it was good because actually they had raised a form and they know that that's probably the last time they had to worry about it because it got fixed.

Glenn Tookey: So it did change the culture in the company where people stopped taking it personally, when someone said that logistics failed here or customer service failed there. It was actually about why did it fail? Not who failed, why did it fail? What's the issue? Is it trading? Is it process? Is it supply? Is it quality of something? And we focus on it and fix it. Brilliant. It really excites me, actually. I never though that quality would excite me, apart from obviously when you deliver it, but the mechanics of it would excite me the way it does because actually every time something comes across my desk, I think here's an opportunity to do something better. So yeah, I love it.

Stuart Lawler: Okay, good. Now, one of the other things I wanted to chat to you a bit about was this big office move last year, I think it was March end of March, early April of 2021. Moving only down the road, but a mammoth operation for James Everson and the whole team who took that on. I had nothing to do with it, sitting over here, but I was very much aware of it. What brought that on? Why last year? Was there anything that triggered it?

Glenn Tookey: Yeah. I've got to say actually probably the push to actually move premises did come from COVID. We sat and looked at how we operated and what we were doing as a business and said, could we do this better? Could we do this more economically? Can we provide a better service? And one of the things we thought we could do was find a place that fitted us better. And so we did. It's really hard work. And actually the company's been going for well, 44 years this year, and it's never been more than one and a half miles from where we are now.

Glenn Tookey: So we've never branched out and gone a long way. We've always been Northampton. But yes, we're only 200 yards down the road, but that's twice as far as we moved last time, 14 years ago. But what was it? Yeah, it was COVID. I thought, yeah, we're probably going to have less people going through this business. We've got a lot of administrative space, which is quite expensive and we are paying for it and it's empty. So let's find somewhere smaller. Actually what happened was we found somewhere with a slightly smaller administrative area, but it had a massive warehousing structure and we thought, ah, well, that's more than we need. We'll park a few cars or we'll do something else with it. Do you know what? Here I sit and everybody who's moved to a new house can probably align with this. We have filled that warehouse space up and we are wondering if we should build a mezzanine now.

Glenn Tookey: We wonder now how we ever coped in the building that we were in, where we had a very small warehouse space. And the business has done very well, I have to say, during 2020 and 2021, and long may that continue. But as a result, we need to stock and hold a lot more product. And we've also got our Irish business stock here as well now. So we needed every single inch that we thought we wouldn't need, possibly plus more. But this new building is modern, it's clean, it's up to date. And I feel it's a much, much nicer working environment for our people. It's got air conditioning, which means it's cool in the summer and warm in the winter, when it was the other way around in the old building. So I feel we finally looking after ourselves perhaps in terms of where we live as well. So James Everson masterminded it, it was an enormous job and God knows how we ever got it done, but we did. And-

Stuart Lawler: Fair play to James.

Glenn Tookey: ... Seems like we've always been here now.

Stuart Lawler: Amazing. And it's interesting because I was over in October and just even walking into it, it feels new. It feels so... I don't know, maybe clean is the word. It feels like it's a really... And actually as a blind person, it's a really nice building to get around as well, which is something else. So yeah. Great move. Definitely. Glenn, one of the things I know you are very heavily involved in is just scouring the world, maybe, if you want to call it that to just look at technology in general. And I suppose one of the things we always talk about in Sight and Sound is we don't manufacture, but we spend that time looking around to see what's out there, what we might like to represent or bring to market. I know that's something you've done quite a bit in the last year and I suspect you're going to be doing more of it this year. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Glenn Tookey: Yes. I think that perhaps I inherited it from the Sight and Sound that I came to 14 years ago. But we were the company of JAWS and Zoomtext and at the time Kurzweil, and we had all the leading products inside our business. And I felt that we are not the manufacturer, we're not the publisher of software. We are the company that takes it to the client base and spends time adding value through support and training and making it all work very well. So I feel incumbent upon me for us as a company to go and continue to find the very best, the very newest technologies that are coming to market for those with low vision. And actually in our education business as well, which is very much more literacy based.

Glenn Tookey: But it's mainly blind and low vision, I think that I'm probably involved in. I'm involved absolutely worldwide, from the west coast of California, all the way down to the bottom of Australia actually. And I go out and I look for those inventors, those developers who are masterminding the next range of products based on automation, based on artificial intelligence, based on miniaturization, based on being faster, understanding how customers are using them at any one point. And there's lots and lots of people out there worldwide investing lots of time, effort, money, and absolute amounts of skills and knowledge to create products. And last year, the Envision glasses were a good example of something that came out of my research. This year, there's an app called Voxmate, which is on Android, soon to be iOS, android accessibility tool for a smartphone, for those with low vision. Absolutely intuitive to use. And I've been working with the inventors of that.

Glenn Tookey: And my job I feel is not only to spot it, but then to use our skills, knowledge, and capability, and that of our customers to say, okay, you think this is going to be a good product. Let's try it. Let's test it. Let's pilot it. Let's feed back to you. Let's twist it into a shape that's absolutely going to be fit for purpose when you actually start to sell it. And that's knowledge, experience really, because that's what I've done in my previous lives, has worked very well for us. People are very keen to work with me and us to bring their technology to the table and for us to play with it. But I've been looking at everything, Stuart, including a robotic guide dog. And you will have that dog. You may be happy with your stick, but you will want that robotic guide dog, I can tell you that. And it could even climb stairs.

Glenn Tookey: So, there's some wild and wacky stuff out there. But the two areas I'm really looking at and Sight and Sound, I think will continue to be the market leaders in, one is getting the very best wearable technology into the UK and Ireland. And the second one is navigation. I'm so keen to find navigation technology. I won't say apps, because some of it's hardware, some of it's software, that allows people with low vision, no site to actually be able to safely get from A to B without having to hold their phone out in front of them, without having to rely on somebody to make the infrastructure okay for them. For you to be able to walk down the road knowing that you are... Actually, I say road, walk down the pavement, knowing you're in the middle of the pavement and not in the middle of the road. That takes some quite clever technology. And there is some very, very smart stuff going on out there. So yes, I continue to work worldwide on some very, very interesting technology. But it's navigation and wearables, I think in 2022 for us.

Stuart Lawler: And if there's people maybe listening at the moment who think, or maybe who have heard of something and who think it might be worthy of us taking a look, can they get in touch with Sight and Sound? I mean, are you interested in hearing from customers about things they might have heard or things they're looking for?

Glenn Tookey: Yeah. So both, actually. Certainly if they've seen or heard of something from a YouTube clip or something like that. Fantastic, point it in my direction, because it is... Not so much YouTube, but through generally research papers, white papers and even awards and things like that, given to inventors or investments from governments for this type of accessible technology, all bubbles to the surface at the end. And we see it, we say right, get in touch and people are so pleased when we get in touch. It's almost a recognition of the work and hard work they're putting in that someone from a commercial perspective will get in touch and say, I want something like that. What are you doing? How can I help? Very interesting, probably the most exciting part of my job.

Stuart Lawler: Okay, brilliant. Well, watch this space because I know you're going to be doing lots more of it. We're going to be putting some of this stuff that you're finding on future podcasts as well. So I think it's going to be an exciting year ahead in that space. Glenn, when we talked to you last, we started touching on the idea of subscription based services, I suppose. Given that nowadays, and I was just thinking about this last night, the amount of things I'm subscribed to with Netflix and Audible and a couple of other things. And we live now out of subscription services and I know you've been looking at that model at Sight and Sound with relation to something you call managed services. Where are we on that at the moment?

Glenn Tookey: Oh, we are full head of steam on this, Stuart. And yes, I would call it managed services rather than subscription services. They may happen to be paid for by subscription. But it's more about what we are looking to do. We are looking to look after the infrastructure, the IT components that the assistive technology that people rely on sits upon. We know that people struggle with computers and hardware where the antivirus is out of date, where the operating system's not working properly, where they lose data because of some form of loss. We're looking at all of the ways in which we can remotely, silently, overnight help keep people's infrastructure up and running. And that's a monthly fee for us to provide that service for people. But we are well on our way in terms of scoping, we've undertaken a survey recently to find out what the client base wants, what they would want to invest their hard earned money in for us to support them.

Glenn Tookey: And we came up with some very interesting outputs. One which I like, which is giving some form of timed priority time slot, for example, for people to connect with us and have their infrastructure looked at. But also people are so keen to actually know that when they fire up their IT to get information, to provide some output, that actually they know it'll work. And so I think I can confidently say that in 2022, and earlier on in 2022, you'll see Sight and Sound come to the client base with some ways in which they can buy into some services that keep them safe and sound, rather than Sight and Sound, maybe in terms of their infrastructure.

Stuart Lawler: There's a peace of mind to it, isn't there, I suppose. Someone saying, I just want to make sure everything's okay. There mightn't be any problem with your technology, but you just want someone to keep an eye on it for you. And that's the thing you're offering, isn't it?

Glenn Tookey: Oh, absolutely. For sure. So that you know when you hit that button and it spools up, and little lights come on, that actually is going to operate. We try that. And if it doesn't, some form of recognized prioritized way so that we know that you are in trouble before you know you're in trouble. And we can help you get you fixed so you don't lose time at work. So you don't miss important information that's dropping into your inbox or that you can communicate with someone that you need to. So, yes, I think that's going to be a real add-on. Remember, we aren't the company that makes the technology that we sell. That's done by the manufacturers and software publishers. We're the people who try to make the very, very best for you out of that by putting the right components together, making sure it's supported, making sure you're trained well and that you can use it. And I think these type of services that we'll offer should enhance that part of the Sight and Sound skill set.

Stuart Lawler: Okay. Brilliant. And we do have a webinar coming up on the 20th of January for anyone who is listening in the next couple of days. Thursday, the 20th of January at 2:00 PM, where we're going to be exploring this a little bit more and getting some feedback. So if you're interested in that, check out our website, it's up there already, or get in touch with us at sales@sightandsound.co.uk and we'll give you all the details. Glenn, we're very grateful to you for joining us. I know you're incredibly busy, but maybe by way of just finishing off on this. And you've kind of told us some of this, I guess already, but as you look ahead to the year, to the 2022, and we're now in the early part of January. Big things in your head or big plans for Sight and Sound or anything you want to flag for us at this point?

Glenn Tookey: Really, I think Stuart, I'd like to say to people, if you want to know what's going on from a technology provider view for assistive technology, technology for low vision, particularly blindness and low vision, then keep an eye on us. Stay connected to us because 2022 is going to be about making sure that our company operates even better, gives you a better quality of service, of course, make it even better. But actually to make more things available to you, to make the newest technologies and capabilities available to you. So yes, managed services. Yes, some of the new navigation apps and software and modules. Yes, some of the very best wearables. I've got a very, very powerful product for those with limited central vision called the oxsight Onyx that's coming along very, very soon. Any day now we'll be bringing that to the market. Again, another groundbreaking piece of technology. So I think for 2022, I'd say to the people listening, if you want to know what's going on, stick close to us.

Stuart Lawler: Okay. Brilliant. Great way to end that piece. Glenn, thanks a million for chatting to us. We will check in with you. We won't leave it as long as we did last time. We will check in with you during the year. Be good to catch up and find out how things are going. But for the moment, stay safe and well and continued success.

Glenn Tookey: Thank you very much Stuart, and happy new year to all of our clients.

Stuart Lawler: Happy new year to you too. Thanks a mill.

New Speaker: Music

Stuart Lawler: Well, it's always nice to introduce new staff to the Sight and Sound podcast audience. And this month I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Scott Young, who's our national account and sales and marketing manager. He's got lots of hats. And actually Scott's been with us for a couple of months. We meant to do this a few months ago. So Scott, first of all, welcome to the podcast. Thanks for taking the time today.

Scott Young: Thank you very much, Stuart. Lovely to be here.

Stuart Lawler: Yeah. Listen, you've been, I think, was it July that you joined because you and I talked about getting you on this show I think in October. So you've been here for a while.

Scott Young: Yes. Mid-July, 12th of July I actually started. And so it's been about suddenly six months, believe it or not. But it's flown in and it's been great. Really enjoyable.

Stuart Lawler: All right. Now tell us a little bit about what were you doing before you came to Sight and Sound.

Scott Young: I've worked in, in the last probably 10 years in good manufacturing roles, account management mainly, which cover a number of skills and things that... Transferable skills if you like. Not technology at all, but essentially you've got very similar traits in any world really. And it's just dealing with customers, managing relationships and managing expectations a lot of the time. Which is... It's really refreshing to come to a slightly different world where you've got someone to care for at the end of the day. Yeah. So, slightly different.

Stuart Lawler: What's it been like for you I suppose seeing the huge breadth of technology and very specialist tech. Was that interesting or mind blowing or what was the experience like coming in here?

Scott Young: Well, I think when I, I looked at the job role, [inaudible 00:29:06] technology, so I explored it a bit differently and that's when it came to life, I guess. It was like, all right, okay. This exists. And it was a brand new area for me, clearly it's existed for many, many years. And I thought, that's extremely interesting is my first thought. Mind blowing quite possibly sometimes as well, because it's brand new information. But actually the fact that there's a tangible product and a tangible... What's the word? You know, if you're dealing with customers, you're actually seeing improvements straight there and then. You're not just seeing something in a product in the shelf on the supermarket. It's been really refreshing that, being able to hang onto something and think, yeah, we're doing some good here. We're doing actual real improvement for our end users customers.

Stuart Lawler: Now Scott, you are, as I said there just a moment ago, you're wearing two hats. So you're looking at national accounts and then you're looking after the sales and marketing function within the business. Just let's talk about national accounts for a second and what does that entail and what would be considered maybe a national account?

Scott Young: Yeah. Well, I mean the entailing side, it's almost like an explorative piece for the business as well. So national accounts will be almost what it says, where you've got one more one port of call. You're not in a regional area. So you've perhaps got a large national organization or charity that deals with a variety of users in different areas and requires a bit of more organization perhaps, a bit more of a relationship from at arms length, if you like. You've got more key stakeholders to deal with. And it is exactly that, it's organizing relationships. So I mean, how it looks with Sight and Sound Technology, we've got a number of ones we're working with where we're almost like partnership with the likes of Sight Research UK, Deaf Blind UK, whether it happens to be NHS trusts. So it's quite a wide breadth of role really. And it's quite a different almost sets of skills you might bring to each customer as well. You have to handle them all and be able to adapt accordingly.

Stuart Lawler: Has it been tricky doing that during COVID because I think it's one thing starting a new job during COVID and we've talked to one or two people on this podcast about that before, but then you're in a role where you're supposed to be going out face to face, pressing the flash as such. Has that been hard?

Scott Young: Yeah. I think it's variable the results that you get. I think with the likes of Zoom and Teams, people are quite often... In my work because of the relationship and the actual seeing people and getting body language and picking up what's going on is so important, I feel. You get very much transactional buy-in if you like from Zoom or Teams, and you can get some jobs done and some plans put afoot. I just think when I've seen anyone at all, it just adds 10, 20, 30% straight away by being there. So it's been quite tricky, I think, and the more we can get out, the better. Don't get me wrong, we don't want to have to just go out and travel six hours away for the sake of doing that. But you often get a lot more progress and some productive end agreement, if you like, when you've got that face to face, I find. So, yeah, it's a balance.

Stuart Lawler: Okay. So then maybe which brings me on to the other part of your role, because obviously that face to face bit is synonymous with the work that our sales team have been doing, traveling all around the country. That obviously too has been heavily compromised during COVID. But you're, I suppose, managing and supporting that role within the business now for the guys who are... I suppose, who people would know from the exhibitions and I suppose in many cases, the front facing part of the company.

Scott Young: Yeah, exactly. And what's been really good in my role, because that's quite new to my role, that aspect. And it makes sense, it runs in parallel to the national accounts and the overall function. What's been really good for me is I've been able to attend exhibitions, do, as part of my training if you like, do demonstrations on straight out to the end customer. I can see the problems. I can also see the solutions as well when you're going out to see them.

Scott Young: So it's been really vital to understand how that role looks like, and to understand the products, understand the key points there. So without having to preach or anything that you've not already done yourself, that's impossible to do as any form of manager, it just doesn't work at all. For me, with some of the guys being remote and me being remote, if you like working from home, I can see where they're coming from. I do however think it's vital that we have face to face contact wherever possible. And so, if we're doing an exhibition, I'll be there. And I'll help out Graham, for example, coming to Scotland and north of England. I live in Dundee South, Scotland. So that only makes sense to increase my knowledge and also just to provide support wherever possible.

Stuart Lawler: And do you see this year... Would you think rather that there we're going to be doing more of that face to face exhibition pressing the flesh? Are you feeling positive about the year head?

Scott Young: Well, yes, definitely. I mean, I came in in a good time in the way things were just opening up. So yourself Stuart were there at Naidex exhibition in September. Not necessarily most successful, but it was great to again, be out there. We did the occupational therapy show in the end of November. So we've got some good follow up from that. And that will work its way through this year. There's already two or three of events in the diary. There's a large one possibly coming up in Ireland in May. And we've got 100% Optical, which has been postponed, but only postponed till the end of April and that's because of the Omicron virus. But everyone's thinking quite positive in moving forward. So I'd like to think 2022 will be a more robust year in that respect.

Stuart Lawler: It's really interesting, isn't it, because I suppose we went through the lockdowns, various lockdowns, certainly the first one thinking, oh, thank God for Zoom and Teams and all these things, all these things that you've talked about. Now, we're at this point where we're saying, I just want to sit beside someone, face to face. It mightn't even be to talk about technology. It's just, I want to see someone in an exhibition. There's a lot of that, isn't there?

Scott Young: Loads. And I actually experienced it even last week, just coming back into the business after a relatively long Christmas break, not used to doing that, used to do a lot of Christmas things in terms of food. So, that was good. But anyway, come back into the business, picked up with Henshaws who are a large charity in the north of England, they're very much national for sight loss. And they immediately wanted to say, listen, can you come down to one of our tech talks on Thursday, down in Bolton two and a half hours away? And I was like, yes, I can. And the great thing was that two, three hours spent maybe three and a half with both the end users and the Henshaws team. You just felt so involved straight away there. You'd have never got that in Zoom at all. So it's really good to do it whenever possible, I think. And whenever practical.

Stuart Lawler: Yeah. I think it's been a real learning experience for us all, hasn't it? And how to show how we work, I suppose, collaboratively with each other in an online world, which is quite a different experience to in the face to face world, I think.

Scott Young: No, it is. It's exactly that. It's a balance though. And I think there has to be a bit of both for things to work well with it.

Stuart Lawler: Scott, it's been great to catch up with you. Continued success in both your roles and we look forward to checking in with you again in the future, but for the moment, thanks a mill for chatting to us today.

Scott Young: Thank you very much, indeed Stuart, it's been a pleasure. Thank you.

Stuart Lawler: Thanks so much to Scott Young there, thoroughly enjoyed catching up with Scott. I had the pleasure of meeting Scott in Birmingham for the first time at the Naidex event when Scott was only relatively new to Sight and Sound. It's funny how you can be working with people or ages during these COVID times and you don't meet. So I'm very glad Scott and I did actually get to meet face to face. And of course, thanks to Glenn Tookey, our CEO, it's always great catching up with Glenn and we promise we will do that a little more frequently this year. That's just about all we have time for on this edition, but we'll be back soon. Until then from Stuart Lawler and everybody at Sight and Sound, stay safe, take care and thanks for listening. Bye bye.