INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning podcast, where

INTRODUCTION: we share learning and expertise in child

INTRODUCTION: protection from inside and outside of the

INTRODUCTION: organisation.

INTRODUCTION: We aim to create debate, encourage, reflection

INTRODUCTION: and share good practice on how we can all work

INTRODUCTION: together to keep babies, children and young

INTRODUCTION: people safe.

ALI: Hi, and thanks for listening to the latest NSPCC

ALI: Learning podcast.

ALI: In this episode, we hear from Jahnine Davis,

ALI: one of the founders of Listen Up, an organisation

ALI: that engages professionals to critically reflect

ALI: on approaches to child safeguarding.

ALI: You'll find links to Listen Up on this podcast's

ALI: webpage (and in the video description below). And if

ALI: you haven't listened to it already, last month's

ALI: podcast on intersectionality with

ALI: Jahnine and Nick from Listen Up, is definitely worth a

ALI: listen.

ALI: This episode was recorded in June 2021

ALI: and focuses on Jahnine's work into the absence

ALI: of Black girls' experiences of child sexual abuse in

ALI: both research and practice.

ALI: Jahnine sat down with an Ineke Houtenbos, a senior

ALI: consultant with the NSPCC.

ALI: Jahnine and Ineke discuss Jahnine's research and

ALI: key findings, why the experiences of Black girls

ALI: is missing from research and the impact that this has

ALI: on policy and practice, how it's been for Jahnine

ALI: as a Black woman embarking on this work and

ALI: listening to the participant's experiences.

ALI: And finally, what we can learn from this in order to

ALI: improve practice and research.

ALI: Now, this podcast does contain quotes from the

ALI: participants about their experiences, which

ALI: are upsetting and may cause distress.

ALI: Further support is available from the NSPCC helpline

ALI: and Childline, which we'll signpost at the end of this

ALI: podcast.

INEKE: And I really wanted to just start with asking the

INEKE: question: what prompted you to look into this?

JAHNINE: Well, what prompted me was first, that

JAHNINE: there is a lack of research which provides

JAHNINE: explicit attention to this area.

JAHNINE: And I always question, 'what's the impact?'

JAHNINE: If we don't have research -- and we know research

JAHNINE: has a massive impact in relation to policy,

JAHNINE: practice implications -- if we do not have

JAHNINE: a diverse range of research which focuses

JAHNINE: on different experiences in relation to child

JAHNINE: sexual abuse, then what does that mean in terms

JAHNINE: of whose narratives and experiences are included

JAHNINE: and excluded from these conversations?

JAHNINE: And I think there is something about the research

JAHNINE: space. If I'm honest, as a Black woman, I

JAHNINE: wanted to enter into this space

JAHNINE: to ensure that I was amplifying these experiences,

JAHNINE: because there is a tendency to focus on

JAHNINE: international research, specifically within the US,

JAHNINE: to have a better understanding about these

JAHNINE: experiences. And of course, we have the great work

JAHNINE: of Professor Claudia Bernard, but there is still

JAHNINE: this tendency to look

JAHNINE: towards international research when actually I

JAHNINE: think that continues to demonstrate the fact that

JAHNINE: we have this paucity of research as to

JAHNINE: why we have to do that.

JAHNINE: And lastly, there is something

JAHNINE: about representation that through

JAHNINE: my practice experience as well as

JAHNINE: within my research career,

JAHNINE: there is still this tendency to use really

JAHNINE: unhelpful language such as, 'BAME - Black, Asian,

JAHNINE: Minority Ethnic', and when I was reviewing

JAHNINE: literature in the study area,

JAHNINE: either there was the use of that language, or

JAHNINE: the research tended more to focus on the

JAHNINE: experiences of South Asian women and girls,

JAHNINE: which again was very homogenised, but still very

JAHNINE: much focussed on South Asian women and girls and

JAHNINE: there was really nothing pointing

JAHNINE: me into the direction of having a better or deeper

JAHNINE: understanding from a practice perspective in terms

JAHNINE: of the experiences of Black girls.

JAHNINE: And that was why my research

JAHNINE: title was 'Where the Black girls?', because every

JAHNINE: time I picked up a research paper as I was

JAHNINE: undertaking my M.A.

JAHNINE: in Women and Child Abuse, that was always my

JAHNINE: question: 'where are the Black girls?

JAHNINE: Where are they in relation to child

JAHNINE: sexual abuse services?'.

JAHNINE: And I guess if, and to what extent, do various

JAHNINE: different stereotypes of Black girls influence how

JAHNINE: we as professionals identify and understand

JAHNINE: those experiences.

INEKE: So do you think that they are linked in terms of

INEKE: the archetypes, you know, the archetypal stereotypes

INEKE: that we have about Black women and girls and the lack

INEKE: of research around then?

JAHNINE: I would say that was one of my findings.

JAHNINE: So in total, I identified nine

JAHNINE: findings from my research and one of which was

JAHNINE: around the caricature of Black women and girls and

JAHNINE: those very traditional and lazy stereotypes,

JAHNINE: very much underpinned by racialised

JAHNINE: sexism;

JAHNINE: whether it's the strong Black woman, or whether

JAHNINE: it's the angry Black woman, whether it's been the

JAHNINE: innately hypersexual Black woman, how all

JAHNINE: of these really harmful and very deficit-based

JAHNINE: stereotypes influence how

JAHNINE: professionals perceive them will go far

JAHNINE: enough to use curiosity, to apply

JAHNINE: that curiosity, to go about the further to ensure

JAHNINE: that there is an understanding of those experiences

JAHNINE: rather than the assumptions based on these

JAHNINE: traditional and very unhelpful and harmful

JAHNINE: stereotypes. And that was definitely something

JAHNINE: which came up. To give you an example,

JAHNINE: one of the research participants spoke about the

JAHNINE: fact that they had experienced sexual abuse.

JAHNINE: But the response from

JAHNINE: the service was very much that they felt that she

JAHNINE: was resilient, strong,

JAHNINE: and that when we talk about resilience, that there

JAHNINE: isn't an acknowledgement that, although it's been

JAHNINE: used and framed in a way, and I guess from a

JAHNINE: contemporary perspective, of something quite

JAHNINE: positive, but actually for Black girls,

JAHNINE: there is already this assumption, a pre-existing

JAHNINE: stereotype, of being strong.

JAHNINE: So therefore, when we think about resilience,

JAHNINE: we have to really question the trajectory in which

JAHNINE: we're viewing that form of resilience, and how

JAHNINE: Black girls are excluded from that.

JAHNINE: Because they've always been placed

JAHNINE: in some way which completely takes

JAHNINE: away that level of vulnerability, where we just

JAHNINE: always view them through the lens of strength,

JAHNINE: having this hyper-strength.

JAHNINE: And that was definitely one of the caricatures

JAHNINE: which featured throughout my study.

INEKE: And that's very difficult to hear because we often

INEKE: focus on child protection and we talk about the

INEKE: child's point of view and centring the child within

INEKE: all of the work that we do, but if we're not seeing

INEKE: them as 'deserving'

INEKE: of the help, and if we don't value their experience

INEKE: in terms of a child who's experienced extreme

INEKE: trauma, then that's going to impact on

INEKE: the pathways for services.

INEKE: So there's a clear intersection there, isn't there,

INEKE: between racism and sexism then, that impacts

INEKE: on them?

JAHNINE: Definitely, that when we think about Black girls --

JAHNINE: and that's why it's really important -- I know the

JAHNINE: word intersectionality is featuring a lot

JAHNINE: in various different spaces, especially within,

JAHNINE: I would say, it's being newly applied to

JAHNINE: safeguarding practice in comparison to some of the

JAHNINE: other spaces within the

JAHNINE: women's sector, especially Black feminist

JAHNINE: organisations have been working within

JAHNINE: intersectional frameworks for many, many years, but

JAHNINE: what we're seeing in terms of safeguarding is, I

JAHNINE: guess, I'm hoping anyway, this increased

JAHNINE: desire to really understand the importance of

JAHNINE: intersectionality. That it's more than a buzzword.

JAHNINE: That it really does matter to the work

JAHNINE: that we do. That we have to think about how the

JAHNINE: various different individual aspects of somebody's

JAHNINE: identity intersect, collide, overlap.

JAHNINE: But ultimately what that means in terms of what

JAHNINE: they then may experience, whether that's on a micro

JAHNINE: level, within the familial context, whether from a

JAHNINE: macro institutional service, wide level.

JAHNINE: Because what we do know for Black girls is that

JAHNINE: these various different caricatures such as, as I

JAHNINE: said, the strong Black woman, the angry

JAHNINE: Black woman, this is very much underpinned

JAHNINE: by gendered racism.

JAHNINE: This is not just something about, well, you know,

JAHNINE: there's a racist issue happening over there in

JAHNINE: isolation. This is very much intertwined

JAHNINE: with the fact that we are talking about Black

JAHNINE: girls. And when we think about how Black

JAHNINE: femininity, how that's placed and how it's

JAHNINE: positioned in society, it's very much through a

JAHNINE: 'deviant' lens. And there's loads of research,

JAHNINE: there's loads of literature which explores this

JAHNINE: from focusing on colonialism,

JAHNINE: all the way from slavery in terms of where

JAHNINE: it was legal, where

JAHNINE: rape and sexual abuse was legitimised.

JAHNINE: So what does that now mean in terms of how Black

JAHNINE: women and girls continue to be objectified,

JAHNINE: continue to be devalued?

JAHNINE: And this is why I really wanted to focus on this in

JAHNINE: relation to child sexual abuse, which

JAHNINE: for many might feel uncomfortable, because I guess

JAHNINE: in some way we all would like to hope and think

JAHNINE: that surely those various different notions

JAHNINE: wouldn't play out in a safeguarding and welfare

JAHNINE: space, but I think would be quite naive to suggest

JAHNINE: that it doesn't. And something my study identified

JAHNINE: was, 'yes, it does'. We know that, due to

JAHNINE: these various different belief systems, very much

JAHNINE: influence how Black girls are perceived as

JAHNINE: deserving or undeserving victims, they

JAHNINE: very much tend to be positioned within that

JAHNINE: undeserving narrative.

INEKE: And that just increases the barriers, doesn't it, in

INEKE: terms of them being able to seek help?

INEKE: Because some of your research talked as well about

INEKE: how they're viewed within their communities, which

INEKE: can be a barrier. And then how they're perceived

INEKE: externally outside of their communities, as you were

INEKE: just saying there. Can you say a little bit more

INEKE: about that?

JAHNINE: Yeah. So looking at the theme, for example,

JAHNINE: around adultification -- that was one

JAHNINE: of the findings -- where there was this assumption

JAHNINE: that Black girls are these hyper-resilient,

JAHNINE: overtly-confident, loud individuals, but actually

JAHNINE: that doesn't necessarily correlate to what they

JAHNINE: might be experiencing.

JAHNINE: One, how they might perceive themselves, and two,

JAHNINE: what they might be experiencing within a familial

JAHNINE: setting. And I was really interested to explore

JAHNINE: intrafamilial sexual abuse to

JAHNINE: better understand what does that mean

JAHNINE: in terms of the various different spaces Black

JAHNINE: girls, or some Black girls, have to navigate?

JAHNINE: Because you have the really strong societal

JAHNINE: messages you're born into externally, which

JAHNINE: completely dismiss, erase and disregard

JAHNINE: vulnerability and just the innate innocence of

JAHNINE: vulnerability all children have, specifically Black

JAHNINE: girls. But then on the other hand, if you're then

JAHNINE: within an environment where you're experiencing

JAHNINE: that harm and abuse, how are you able to

JAHNINE: navigate that? What does safety then look like for

JAHNINE: you? Where do you go? Who is protecting Black

JAHNINE: girls? And what came up was around over-valuing

JAHNINE: of Black boyhood. That historically, there has been

JAHNINE: such a lens and presence on focusing on the

JAHNINE: punitive responses Black boys get, from stop

JAHNINE: and search, whether that's just looking at the

JAHNINE: criminal justice system. We know -- we

JAHNINE: just have to look at Lammy, 2017 -- we know that

JAHNINE: there is still an issue with our criminal justice

JAHNINE: system and those who are more likely to go down a

JAHNINE: criminal justice route than a child welfare route.

JAHNINE: However, what we tend to do is focus on the

JAHNINE: experiences of Black boys and Black girls just

JAHNINE: continue to almost

JAHNINE: become quite invisible; we don't see them.

JAHNINE: I remember one of the participants saying,

JAHNINE: 'well, look, if you are a Black girl and you're

JAHNINE: experiencing sexual abuse and the person

JAHNINE: who's committing that abuse is from

JAHNINE: somebody of your same background, that's another

JAHNINE: Black boy, a Black man, where do you go?

JAHNINE: How do you manage that?' And, historically, I would

JAHNINE: say that, without wanting to homogenise and

JAHNINE: say this is for everybody, there is definitely

JAHNINE: evidence to suggest that for many Black

JAHNINE: communities, they continue to be overlooked and not

JAHNINE: necessarily protected, or feel they've been

JAHNINE: protected by the state.

JAHNINE: So if you think about that in the sense of child

JAHNINE: sexual abuse, where we have girls who are

JAHNINE: experiencing abuse, not only are they navigating

JAHNINE: that very challenging

JAHNINE: space of 'victimised by abuse' ,

JAHNINE: but then they're also challenging that space of

JAHNINE: 'where do you go?' when they're going into a system

JAHNINE: who, historically, has actually also

JAHNINE: not protected you and not protected your

JAHNINE: communities.

INEKE: And doesn't value you as a child that

INEKE: is suffering, ultimately, and that needs the support

INEKE: and help and care.

INEKE: And when we think about all of

INEKE: that, what did you find was the main direction taken

INEKE: when the risk of child sexual abuse was identified

INEKE: and acknowledged for Black girls?

JAHNINE: There wasn't a specific direction.

JAHNINE: Instead, there was more of a lack of

JAHNINE: questioning and understanding.

JAHNINE: There was something around value,

JAHNINE: and the lack of understanding

JAHNINE: around how value manifests over time,

JAHNINE: where there is this almost this continuum of

JAHNINE: devaluation for Black girls and Black women.

JAHNINE: And that's either through the lens of, well, it

JAHNINE: must be -- if we're talking about sexual abuse --

JAHNINE: it must be gang-related sexual abuse.

JAHNINE: So there was, again, that lack of curiosity to just

JAHNINE: sometimes go that bit further. Especially when

JAHNINE: we're thinking about - yes, we know studies suggest

JAHNINE: that Black girls might be at an increased risk,

JAHNINE: specifically those who live in areas where there is

JAHNINE: various different forms of

JAHNINE: gang violence in those spaces - but actually,

JAHNINE: that doesn't necessarily account to what does that

JAHNINE: mean in terms of if you're experiencing sexual

JAHNINE: abuse within the home, what about those Black

JAHNINE: girls? And in some way that

JAHNINE: there is such a strong emphasis and focus on

JAHNINE: gang associated sexual exploitation, sexual

JAHNINE: violence, that I think we're really missing the

JAHNINE: other, wider experiences of sexual abuse.

JAHNINE: And I think that further plays out when there was a

JAHNINE: lack of questioning, or

JAHNINE: this kind of 'decreased' sense of value provided to

JAHNINE: Black girls who experience harm because of those

JAHNINE: various different racialised stereotypes.

JAHNINE: And that's why, throughout my research, I wanted to

JAHNINE: be really clear that racism underpins.

JAHNINE: Racism is the compounding factor throughout all of

JAHNINE: this. That we can't talk about

JAHNINE: referral pathways as this separate

JAHNINE: thing happening over there. We can't talk about a

JAHNINE: lack of knowing or understanding of the needs and

JAHNINE: experiences of Black girls, or the various

JAHNINE: different stereotypes associated to Black girls or

JAHNINE: forced onto them, without talking about the impact

JAHNINE: racism has and how that has featured across all of

JAHNINE: those spaces.

INEKE: Taking all of that into consideration, what did the

INEKE: participants actually say to you about their own

INEKE: experience and in their own words?

JAHNINE: They said a lot. And actually, I think it's

JAHNINE: important to note that whilst this was

JAHNINE: an M.A. study and therefore a small scale study,

JAHNINE: the findings were not just

JAHNINE: important in terms of thinking about considerations

JAHNINE: for practice, but definitely overwhelming, because

JAHNINE: even though they were based across various

JAHNINE: different locations across England, various

JAHNINE: different age groups -- all of them

JAHNINE: were from Black ethnic backgrounds --

JAHNINE: what came up the most was the concept of value.

JAHNINE: And I remember one of the participants

JAHNINE: said, 'well, you know, Black girls aren't deemed as

JAHNINE: being beautiful, so almost be grateful for

JAHNINE: the abuse', and that out of all of them,

JAHNINE: that one's always stayed with me the most because

JAHNINE: that message around

JAHNINE: you're not necessarily understanding the impacts

JAHNINE: racism has. The impact that it has when

JAHNINE: it comes to how messages become internalised, over

JAHNINE: years and years of being told you're no good, being

JAHNINE: told you're ugly.

JAHNINE: All of this colourism, that if you're 'too dark' or

JAHNINE: if your features don't align to Eurocentric

JAHNINE: standards of beauty, whether that's the messages

JAHNINE: you see in the media and the TV playing out, those

JAHNINE: covert messages, or whether it's those overt

JAHNINE: messages you might hear from others, and then

JAHNINE: to have somebody say actually, well,

JAHNINE: of course, we see that. 'Black girls aren't seen as

JAHNINE: being beautiful.

JAHNINE: So if you are experiencing sexual abuse, you know,

JAHNINE: almost be grateful. Almost be grateful for the

JAHNINE: abuse.'

JAHNINE: And then another participant said, 'well, look, no

JAHNINE: one cares about us.

JAHNINE: Our experiences.

JAHNINE: Do you think anybody cares about Black girls?' And

JAHNINE: that was this feeling of, 'who cares?

JAHNINE: Who's protecting Black girls?' That level

JAHNINE: of attention, which all children

JAHNINE: should receive, are we seeing that play out in the

JAHNINE: same way for Black girls? And there was a massive

JAHNINE: focus on when Black girls go missing, which

JAHNINE: is interesting when you think about the various

JAHNINE: different debates happening currently at the moment

JAHNINE: in terms of children being missing, children

JAHNINE: experiencing harm, who do we see portrayed in the

JAHNINE: media to those who we don't necessarily see or hear

JAHNINE: about?

JAHNINE: And one of the features was that there was almost

JAHNINE: this complicit silencing of Black girls.

JAHNINE: That we have the experiences of Black girls

JAHNINE: almost missing from history.

JAHNINE: And one of the participants says, 'well, no one

JAHNINE: values us, no one questions us.

JAHNINE: Our experiences are not acknowledged in

JAHNINE: research.

JAHNINE: We are perceived as being strong.

JAHNINE: Why would anybody want to focus on us?

JAHNINE: That we have Black girls going missing left, right

JAHNINE: and centre, who's placing

JAHNINE: any emphasis on that?'.

JAHNINE: And then there was something really interesting

JAHNINE: which came up around, actually, is research, and

JAHNINE: the research space, some way complicit in silencing

JAHNINE: experiences?

JAHNINE: If we continue to only magnify some experiences,

JAHNINE: and I'm not saying that's intentional, but however,

JAHNINE: are we going far enough as researchers,

JAHNINE: specifically research spaces which are set up to

JAHNINE: focus on sexual abuse or other wider forms

JAHNINE: of harm, child abuse, if

JAHNINE: we are not explicitly placing attention on those

JAHNINE: voices, which we know are lesser heard, are we then

JAHNINE: complicit in silencing those experiences, if we

JAHNINE: continue just to keep saying the same old, same

JAHNINE: old? And for many of the participants, they said,

JAHNINE: 'well, Black girls, no one cares about us because

JAHNINE: no one's ever spoken about us'.

INEKE: And that goes back to that adage of

INEKE: we can't address what we can't see.

INEKE: And if we're not looking at that in research, and

INEKE: it kind of means almost that it's incumbent on every

INEKE: safeguarding professional to really be very critical

INEKE: about what research they're using that informs their

INEKE: work. Who's actually represented in that research...

JAHNINE: ...and who's missing.

INEKE: Exactly. And then asking questions from there.

JAHNINE: Indeed. And I think one

JAHNINE: of the challenges which came

JAHNINE: up was around, if we're talking about Black girls

JAHNINE: and child sexual abuse and some of the issues

JAHNINE: within that lack of identification, it also

JAHNINE: means we have to place the lens on services.

JAHNINE: We have to talk about what our responsibilities

JAHNINE: are as individual professionals based within those

JAHNINE: services. That means we have to talk about racism.

JAHNINE: And the reality, in terms of what

JAHNINE: was said from my study, that's a massive issue

JAHNINE: still. That not only is there resistance

JAHNINE: to really explore it, but one of the

JAHNINE: participants said, 'well, instead, what

JAHNINE: happens is that there is now this focus and this

JAHNINE: shift on unconscious bias,

JAHNINE: rather than talking about conscious bias', and by

JAHNINE: talking about unconscious bias -- of course it

JAHNINE: exists. We all have various different biases that

JAHNINE: we hold -- but by solely talking about

JAHNINE: or framing experiences of inequalities

JAHNINE: of discrimination around, well, it must

JAHNINE: be the unconscious bias playing out, in some way

JAHNINE: excuses professionals and services

JAHNINE: to consciously make an effort to acknowledge that

JAHNINE: there is conscious behaviour happening within that.

JAHNINE: That we also have conscious bias as well.

JAHNINE: And that by focusing on unconscious bias

JAHNINE: that almost continues to just

JAHNINE: silence and move away from

JAHNINE: the impact bias just has

JAHNINE: on Black girls.

JAHNINE: And I think throughout the study,

JAHNINE: I think what really came up, what just continued

JAHNINE: to surface to me was that

JAHNINE: we can have all of this understanding

JAHNINE: about the experiences of Black girls, but that

JAHNINE: has to happen in conjunction with having

JAHNINE: open, transparent and honest discussions and

JAHNINE: having reflective, accountable spaces about the

JAHNINE: function of racism in those spaces, within our

JAHNINE: policies within our research.

JAHNINE: As I said, whether intentional or unintentional, we

JAHNINE: have to think about the impacts of not having

JAHNINE: the voices and experiences of Black girls included

JAHNINE: in those spaces and what the consequence and the

JAHNINE: impact is. Because if Black girls are seen

JAHNINE: as being innately hypersexual, again,

JAHNINE: which really stems back from

JAHNINE: slavery, colonialism -- Black girls as these

JAHNINE: wayward women -- of

JAHNINE: course, that's then going to possibly

JAHNINE: impact on how we then identify them as victims

JAHNINE: of CSA. So, if we do not question and really

JAHNINE: hold ourselves to account, then we're allowing

JAHNINE: those various different pre-existing

JAHNINE: racist narratives to play out and how we

JAHNINE: might perceive certain communities, in particular

JAHNINE: Black communities, where there is sexual abuse.

INEKE: Perhaps that's some of the resistance around

INEKE: doing anti-racist work, is that it kind of starts

INEKE: with that unconscious bias, as you said, and then

INEKE: people kind of release any responsibility by having

INEKE: to do something about it because it's unconscious so

INEKE: we don't have to follow it up.

INEKE: Whereas actually it's about being humble, being

INEKE: vulnerable and thinking, 'well, OK, how is this

INEKE: actually impacting on my practice?

INEKE: It's actually not protecting children for me to

INEKE: think this way.'

JAHNINE: It's exactly that. And what I will say is

JAHNINE: that a big emphasis

JAHNINE: is very much, from an

JAHNINE: external perspective, in terms of services,

JAHNINE: professionals, especially where participants

JAHNINE: who I should say over half of the participants

JAHNINE: I interviewed were victim-survivors of

JAHNINE: child sexual abuse, but what

JAHNINE: was really also apparent was how

JAHNINE: racism features and how

JAHNINE: that becomes internalised within the home,

JAHNINE: within the communities.

JAHNINE: And that narrative of 'don't talk, don't share

JAHNINE: your business outside of the home' now, when you

JAHNINE: position that in just an isolated space without any

JAHNINE: context, naturally you might then

JAHNINE: take quite a deficit perspective or unintentionally

JAHNINE: pathologise certain communities to say, 'well they

JAHNINE: have an issue over there with sharing

JAHNINE: information because they don't trust the police',

JAHNINE: you have to really add some context to that.

JAHNINE: We have to acknowledge that because of the

JAHNINE: experiences of intergenerational traumas of

JAHNINE: racism, which when we think about high profile

JAHNINE: cases, but we also have to acknowledge those

JAHNINE: individual experiences over time, and

JAHNINE: that individual Black girl might not have had that

JAHNINE: direct experience, it might be that there have been

JAHNINE: indirect experiences which have continued to be

JAHNINE: told, over time and over time, which of course,

JAHNINE: then influence and impact on how somebody

JAHNINE: perceived safety. So therefore, when you're told

JAHNINE: 'don't talk business outside of your home', let's

JAHNINE: be real, some of that might be coming from that

JAHNINE: abusive parent who doesn't want their child to go

JAHNINE: and say anything to various different trusted

JAHNINE: adults, but some of that is also very much

JAHNINE: underpinned by that protective, caring parent who's

JAHNINE: saying 'don't chat our business outside of the

JAHNINE: house', and why is that?

JAHNINE: That's because we know when you leave this home,

JAHNINE: when you say that, we know that you're more than

JAHNINE: likely going to experience these type of

JAHNINE: injustices, or these type of harsher narratives,

JAHNINE: whether you're a Black girl or a Black boy, because

JAHNINE: of those various different societal stereotypes.

JAHNINE: So we have to also acknowledge that,

JAHNINE: yes,

JAHNINE: there's that external presence in terms of how

JAHNINE: professionals engage or disengage with

JAHNINE: Black girls, but how that then influences

JAHNINE: within the familial setting, because participants

JAHNINE: were sharing their various different experiences

JAHNINE: of growing up in households where

JAHNINE: Black girls aren't allowed to be girls. That adultification

JAHNINE: is a core feature throughout. But that growing up,

JAHNINE: and having to grow up quick, and being perceived as

JAHNINE: an adult is also due to having to prepare

JAHNINE: Black girls at a much more

JAHNINE: faster pace for the outside

JAHNINE: world because of the realities of,

JAHNINE: I guess, that increased possibility of them

JAHNINE: experiencong much more hardship when they leave the

JAHNINE: front door.

INEKE: And I wanted to ask you a little bit of a personal

INEKE: question. What is it like for you

INEKE: as a Black woman and as a mother

INEKE: listening to these experiences?

INEKE: What is that like for you?

JAHNINE: To be completely honest,

JAHNINE: it was really challenging. It was really difficult.

JAHNINE: It was really difficult. And I had to pause

JAHNINE: a lot throughout my study to just gather myself.

JAHNINE: And I think that was because when I was hearing the

JAHNINE: messages, specifically that one

JAHNINE: around being grateful for the abuse or Black girls

JAHNINE: not being seen as being beautiful, the

JAHNINE: conversations about colourism and that lack of

JAHNINE: worth, they resonated with me so personally

JAHNINE: growing up as what it was like for me growing up

JAHNINE: being Black, growing up as a Black girl, navigating

JAHNINE: those same experiences.

JAHNINE: And I think it made me question how far have

JAHNINE: we really come and the

JAHNINE: messages which I received growing up from when I

JAHNINE: was young, in terms of having to be that

JAHNINE: bit stronger or having to work that bit harder or

JAHNINE: acknowledging that I might be treated differently

JAHNINE: because I am of this colour,

JAHNINE: I think what has changed in terms of

JAHNINE: what messages my children then receive, and

JAHNINE: although I might reframe that differently, the

JAHNINE: experience hasn't changed.

JAHNINE: And I think about we're in

JAHNINE: 2021 and professionals, and I really want

JAHNINE: to place the emphasis on safeguarding, are still

JAHNINE: tripping up over saying the word Black, saying

JAHNINE: racism, like it's so challenging

JAHNINE: and almost offensive to say the word.

JAHNINE: More offensive than the actual experience.

JAHNINE: That it's so important to think about this.

JAHNINE: And I would say, as a Black woman researching this,

JAHNINE: it was really challenging because I am navigating

JAHNINE: the experiences externally.

JAHNINE: I'm navigating what it is to grow up in

JAHNINE: England and be a Black woman who has experienced

JAHNINE: racism. I've experienced racism throughout my whole

JAHNINE: life. And I'm conscious of

JAHNINE: that. I'm conscious of the predominantly white

JAHNINE: research spaces that I also then have to navigate,

JAHNINE: where I then have to share this information.

JAHNINE: I almost felt this sense of

JAHNINE: protection. I was so protective with my research

JAHNINE: because, especially where there was focuses on

JAHNINE: what happens within some home environments,

JAHNINE: not because I wanted to silence those

JAHNINE: who had come forward and shared their narratives

JAHNINE: and experiences, but because I was really, really

JAHNINE: acutely aware of the spaces I was then going to

JAHNINE: have to show and shared those experiences, where,

JAHNINE: for me, there was possibly that lack

JAHNINE: of understanding and that automatic assumption

JAHNINE: to pathologise and 'other' and say, "well, look

JAHNINE: over there", rather than to be able to really

JAHNINE: contextualise and understand this experience.

JAHNINE: So it was really, really difficult.

JAHNINE: But it also makes me think as a Black researcher,

JAHNINE: as a Black woman who's been working in safeguarding

JAHNINE: for many years, if you are also Black

JAHNINE: and from another ethnic minoritised background and

JAHNINE: you're working in spaces where you are

JAHNINE: not necessarily representative or seeing yourself,

JAHNINE: that increased burden, that increased feeling

JAHNINE: of "I

JAHNINE: know what that feels like" and I think that that isn't necessarily...

JAHNINE: I don't think we still really

JAHNINE: address what that means for Black practitioners

JAHNINE: in terms of how they feel.

JAHNINE: I just want to shout out the work of Kjiji who are

JAHNINE: doing quite a lot of work at the moment, focusing

JAHNINE: on Black safeguarding professionals --

JAHNINE: just so, so needed.

JAHNINE: But definitely as a Black woman researching

JAHNINE: this, it was challenging.

JAHNINE: And I also felt almost that sense of

JAHNINE: am I almost...

JAHNINE: By me placing a lens on the communities that I'm

JAHNINE: from, what does that feel like for me in

JAHNINE: terms of feeling like some kind of traitor?

JAHNINE: That I'm now, you know, almost outsider/insider.

JAHNINE: Always will be an insider, but I'm definitely

JAHNINE: placing a lens to magnify some

JAHNINE: specific issues.

JAHNINE: And how might that land?

JAHNINE: I think about what my friends might think,

JAHNINE: my family members might think.

JAHNINE: It was really, really challenging.

JAHNINE: So I would say that anybody who's researching child

JAHNINE: sexual abuse, just anybody, of course, you know,

JAHNINE: you really do have to take care of yourself, and I

JAHNINE: had a very good network around me, but I think

JAHNINE: we have to acknowledge that intersection of when

JAHNINE: you are a Black woman researching this and you're

JAHNINE: researching areas specifically focusing on

JAHNINE: areas which relate to your own identity and

JAHNINE: possible own lived experiences,

JAHNINE: there has to be further support provided because

JAHNINE: it was, it's really challenging.

JAHNINE: And it hurts.

JAHNINE: It hurts because we know this is happening.

JAHNINE: And that's what led me to do my PhD I'm

JAHNINE: now in my second year focusing on

JAHNINE: service responses to Black children

JAHNINE: and how perceptions of Black children -- if, and to

JAHNINE: what extent, do perceptions of Black children

JAHNINE: impact safeguarding responses?

JAHNINE: And that was because one of the quotes --

JAHNINE: one of the comments, I should say -- from one of

JAHNINE: the participants from my M.A.,

JAHNINE: I remember she just said, and she was so exhausted

JAHNINE: and very, very teary, and she just said, "who's

JAHNINE: protecting us?".

JAHNINE: And that's what's always just left me: "who's

JAHNINE: protecting us?", and that's the name

JAHNINE: of my PhD study.

JAHNINE: And that's why I want to continue.

JAHNINE: I didn't choose to go into research.

JAHNINE: I just didn't really want to.

JAHNINE: I'm like, "oh, gosh, that's not for me", but for me

JAHNINE: this is a political and personal decision more than

JAHNINE: anything, because I am really tired and exhausted

JAHNINE: of not hearing the narratives and experiences

JAHNINE: of Black children.

JAHNINE: Or having that footnote on a research

JAHNINE: paper of, "we know that there are additional needs

JAHNINE: and experiences of 'BAME' children, of disabled

JAHNINE: children, of LGBT+ children".

JAHNINE: I'm really tired of that.

JAHNINE: I want to explicitly pay attention to the

JAHNINE: experiences of Black children.

JAHNINE: So that is what I'm doing.

INEKE: And, it's so important that

INEKE: you do this, and I can't thank you enough, both

INEKE: personally and professionally, for doing this work.

INEKE: Because it's necessary. And it's necessary that those

INEKE: children also hear that voice and hear

INEKE: your voice and see that there are people out

INEKE: there who will listen.

INEKE: So, in terms of service

INEKE: responses, as you've mentioned there, what would some

INEKE: of your recommendations be for those of us who are

INEKE: listening to this today in terms of, how do

INEKE: you do better?

JAHNINE: I think there are a few things.

JAHNINE: I think, first, in terms of the research space, I

JAHNINE: think we need to really start emphasising

JAHNINE: what facilitates telling, what facilitates

JAHNINE: communicating harm, rather than

JAHNINE: what the barriers are.

JAHNINE: I think we have to really start

JAHNINE: to explore

JAHNINE: how our current assessment tools,

JAHNINE: frameworks we use, whether they're the

JAHNINE: traditional frameworks underpinning

JAHNINE: wider safeguarding practice, or whether they're the

JAHNINE: tools and frameworks individual services have

JAHNINE: designed, who do they

JAHNINE: include? Who do they exclude?

JAHNINE: Is there an understanding of the experiences of

JAHNINE: Black girls?

JAHNINE: I would say there has to be some more attention

JAHNINE: provided to

JAHNINE: an understanding of racialised stereotypes.

JAHNINE: Because it's just not

JAHNINE: good enough anymore to say, "we don't

JAHNINE: know". You have a duty to go and

JAHNINE: find out. If you don't know, identify what your

JAHNINE: knowledge gaps are.

JAHNINE: Think about who your service provision

JAHNINE: is currently providing service to.

JAHNINE: Is that reflective of the geographical,

JAHNINE: or the demographic of young people within your

JAHNINE: geographical location.

JAHNINE: Thinking about how

JAHNINE: we can start to adopt much

JAHNINE: more courageous conversations in our narratives

JAHNINE: rather than just saying, antioppressive,

JAHNINE: antiracist.

JAHNINE: Let's really think about what does that mean in

JAHNINE: practice? How do we engage in conversations about

JAHNINE: racism? How do we start to really unpick

JAHNINE: and think about how our own individual lived

JAHNINE: experiences, professional careers, may

JAHNINE: have collided in some way to influence

JAHNINE: how we might perceive certain communities.

JAHNINE: Especially those who differ from us, with a

JAHNINE: specific emphasis on Black communities.

JAHNINE: I'm speaking about in relation to my research.

JAHNINE: Maybe looking at the referral pathways.

JAHNINE: Maybe do some dip sampling

JAHNINE: to identify who is being referred to

JAHNINE: what service, and is there difference

JAHNINE: in terms of where Black girls might be going -

JAHNINE: that's if we're seeing them at all - are they going

JAHNINE: down that gang associated

JAHNINE: exploitation pathway and are they've been

JAHNINE: picked up much later?

JAHNINE: Are we focusing as well on intrafamilial abuse?

JAHNINE: We know that there are wider conversations

JAHNINE: happening in relation to how there

JAHNINE: is a focus so much on extrafamilial, let's also not

JAHNINE: forget intrafamilial harm; abuse within the home.

JAHNINE: But as I said, first and foremost, I think we have

JAHNINE: to start with ourselves. We really do.

JAHNINE: Because we have a duty to safeguard and protect

JAHNINE: all children and

JAHNINE: I think when I go back to

JAHNINE: that point, that participant said, "who's

JAHNINE: protecting us?", my

JAHNINE: wish for safeguarding practice is that no

JAHNINE: child ever has to ask that question.

JAHNINE: No child ever has to contemplate that.

JAHNINE: That they know that we are there to protect

JAHNINE: them, regardless of their background, regardless of

JAHNINE: the colour of their skin.

JAHNINE: I just don't think we're there yet.

JAHNINE: But I do hope and believe that one day we will get

JAHNINE: there.

INEKE: And thanks to your work, one day we will.

INEKE: Thank you.

OUTRO: Thanks for listening to this NSPCC Learning podcast.

OUTRO: At the time of recording, this episode's content was

OUTRO: up to date but the world of safeguarding and child

OUTRO: protection is ever changing.

OUTRO: So, if you're looking for the most current

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