Episode 2

Gerry (00:11):

Welcome to the Seidman Mentorship Podcast. This is your captain speaking. On this show we navigate the voyage of life through the lens of Lakers, some who have just come aboard and others who are well underway. We will speak with experts who will show us the ropes, help us plot a course, and recount exhilarating tales of uncharted territory all while promoting lifelong learning agility and a culture of mentorship.

Sidney (00:39):

Hello everyone. This is Sidney Bachman. I'm a graduate student at Grand Valley State University. And I work in the Seidman advisory office. On today's show, I interview the mentorship captain himself, Gerry Cooke. Gerry is the Director of Mentorship for the Seidman School of Business and MBA candidate, and a lifelong Laker. He earned his Bachelors of Business Administration in 1998 from Seidman, founded a club sport, earned the President's Award, and volunteered in the Professional Mentorship Program since its inception eight years ago. After 25 years of professional work in public relations and sales, Gerry has decided to return to GVSU to pursue his passions for mentorship. In this episode, we discuss the Seidman Mentorship Program, its mission in schools, how it works, what to expect if you join, and the tangible benefits of being a mentor or mentee. Gerry, or should I call you captain? Welcome to the show.

Gerry (01:34):

We have too much fun with that nautical theme on this show.

Sidney (01:39):

It's very puny!

Gerry (01:39):

That's exactly what Anna said. And everybody in the office says that when we were talking about this, and I blame you all for encouraging it so.

Sidney (01:46):

Well, I think it's great, but tell us a little bit about your background and your Laker journey thus far.

Gerry (01:52):

Well, we only have, I think 20 minutes in the show, so I'll try to keep that brief, but it's been a long and interesting journey. It's, it's fun to be back at Grand Valley. Having done Undergraduate here, back in the nineties, walking the campus again, which is bigger than, than I recall, and being involved in those, you know, just being involved in students, whether it's coaching or student lives it's been fun. But after I left Grand Valley in the nineties, we had one of the worst recessions in the economy. And everybody was scared getting out and graduating and wanting their first job. Not unlike now in a lot of ways. So, I was out there looking for some gigs and I was very fortunate to have people in my life, mentors. We didn't call them those back then. You just kind of had people that you knew never a formal mentorship that kind of helped me out. And so, I launched into careers in sales and PR, as you mentioned, I did that for a long time. And then COVID came along and COVID ended my 20-year career. And it was time for a change. And so, I made a few drastic ones real quick, decided to come home to Grand Valley and enrolled in the professional MBA program which was really strange after being out of school for so long. It was super weird. So here I am. I'm back in class, I'm carrying a backpack.

Sidney (03:18):

Feels like grade school?

Gerry (03:22):

Backpack and I'm walking around campus. Back in my day, we only have one building here at the downtown Pew campus. We had the Eberhard Center. And fun fact, the buses only ran every hour and 15 minutes back then from Allendale. So, your few classes were on the hour. You were really early or 15 minutes late for class.

Sidney (03:41):

That's not as convenient as it is now.

Gerry (03:44):

Not nearly as convenient as the Laker Line is now. And so yeah, so here I am back as a student. And then this opportunity came along and I was known inside of the mentorship circle here at Grand Valley and was very fortunate to get the call. And they said, Hey, do you want to do this? And I said, absolutely. And never hesitated at the chance to do this because I think this is some of the most significant rewarding work you can absolutely do in your professional career. So, it's a lot of fun. So here we are. And launching a new program and enjoying every minute of it.

Sidney (04:18):

Well, we're so glad to have you back and we're excited to start this journey with the Seidman Mentorship Program. So, I got to know though, what exactly is a mentorship?

Gerry (04:30):

Ah, that's gone through so many iterations. I've been doing a lot of research because it's been interesting. A lot of institutions and a lot of businesses now have a mentorship and it means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. And that's not a very good answer, but the word mentor actually goes back to Greek. And I don't remember my history very well for that, but it's either the Odyssey or the Iliad, you know, the word mentor first appears and it's, it's somebody who actually fosters the hero and kind of takes them under their wing and teach them. And that's where we get the word mentor from. But you know, mentorship is really about forming a relationship with somebody. I like to think of it as a trusted friend and advisor, somebody that you can get knowledge from and bounce ideas off of while you're trying to explore your voyage of self-discovery.

Gerry (05:22):

And that's different than a lot of other ways that mentorship is used where oftentimes a mentor is more like a coach where you're trying to teach a specific skill. Whereas a mentorship is really more about self-actualization and the difference becomes clear because coaches are often the people you call and ask a technical question or a set, which a mentor can sometimes do too. But a mentor is like, I'm at this point in my life and I'm not sure what to do. So, you're ready for mentorship in a way, I think when you're ready to, when you’re kind of empty and you're asking those questions about the universe and about what's next in your life, and I'll tell you from experience that doesn't just happen your freshmen or your first year when you first come to a university or when you graduate. And you're like, now what do I do? It comes kind of this lifelong learning so that the mentors are kind of like that guide. And there's a, there's a set of acronyms that get assigned to this. But mentor, I like to think about is M for mission E for engagement N for network T for trust and R for review. And that's kind of the theme around kind of what our program is based on.

Sidney (06:34):

That's really cool. And yeah, I think you're right in saying that mentorship isn't something that's just for freshmen, but man, I think it's something that really helped me freshman year. Having people that could be there to guide me. So how does the Seidman mentorship program work exactly?

Gerry (06:54):

So, the goal is to take students who are first years, who are interested in Seidman or have declared interest or pre-admitted into Seidman, and match them with peer mentors. So, the first years are going to be mentored by usually juniors or seniors in the Seidman program. Folks that have been around Grand Valley can navigate Mackinaw Hall. I keep in the last show, we picked on Mac a little bit, you know.

Sidney (07:19):

It's a maze!

Gerry (07:21):

Kind of help you find your way around campus and help you navigate all the tools that Grand Valley has because there's a plethora of opportunity at Grand Valley for you to learn all these different skills that are related to whatever your discipline is, not just business. And it's extremely overwhelming. It's overwhelming for me as returning Laker in a graduate program because programs have changed. They're different. People come and go. So, it's kind of nice to have that trusted advisor. So, you can pick up the phone, text, call or video chat with somebody and be like, I'm kind of lost on this, you know, bigger level. And so those first-year students are going to be mentored by juniors, seniors, or graduate students like yourself. And then those peer mentors, those folks in the junior/senior graduate program level have the option to be mentored by community folks. Some of them are alumni.

Gerry (08:17):

Some of them are here in Grand Rapids, but they're usually business professionals usually in your field. And you get that option to increase your network by actually speaking with them. And the idea my grand scheme, if you will, if I pull back the curtain is those first years will become peer mentors. Those peer mentors will graduate and come community mentors. And this thing will perpetuate, will snowball and get bigger. So, we do have limited entry into the system this year because we want to make sure we do a very good job. And we're very hands-on before we scale this up to get bigger.

Sidney (08:52):

That makes sense. That makes sense. That's cool. So, who exactly can join the program?

Gerry (08:57):

So, the program is open to folks in the first year who are either pre-admit or shown an interest in the Seidman School of Business. So those are our first-year peer mentors are preferred out of Seidman, but we've opened it up. So, we allow pretty much any student that is truly interested in peer mentorship to do that professional mentors. And anybody in the community who has experience to share with a student and has that open kind of learning agility attitude. The beautiful thing about my 30 years in business is I cultivated a lot of relationships. So if a student comes to me and says, Hey, I'm an accounting major and I want to work as a CPA, or I want to work in a big firm, or I want to work for Fortune 500 chances are, I know somebody personally or somebody in the network that I can call and say, Hey, I got a student so that what we call pairing putting these folks together, that's really where the rubber meets the road. And that's one of the key things that makes our program a little bit different than others, where they just take whoever signed up. Number one slot gets, you know, number one, mentor, slot, number one, mentee and so on and so forth. Because as programs get huge, it's harder to, to kind of pair folks together.

Sidney (10:13):

So, all of this sounds really good, but you know, it makes me wonder a little bit, just, you know, thinking about starting classes and my workload increasing just throughout the semester is, is this program a lot of work? What's the workload like for this?

Gerry (10:29):

Well, for me, I love it. So, for me, it's twenty-four seven.

Gerry (10:33):

Call me anytime, call me anytime. I, I love this stuff.

Sidney (10:38):

On call mentor.

Gerry (10:39):

That's right! For the for the first year. Really, you're the recipient of all of this this Goodwill. So really your job is to stay in contact with your mentor. The program is asking for two check-ins per month with your mentor or mentee. So, if you're that peer in the center, you're having two interactions with your mentee, you and a first year, and by your choice, you're having two interactions with your community mentor a month. We ask that the peer that's, again, the person in the middle write one short report. I'm not teaching an SWS class here, but you know, some college level writing, I'm not demanding 15 pages, just a check-in point. And kind of letting us know how it's going and that way we can monitor the progress. And also if you want to share, if you as a peer mentor run into a situation that you need, you know, resources for, we don't expect you to know all the answers, call the office, email me, or put it in your report so we can read it and I can get back to you and say, yeah, this is a resource you could use for this or that or anything else we can do to help out.

Gerry (11:47):

So, we want to make sure that this is happening, but realistically, most mentees are going to spend an hour, maybe two a month on this program. We want it to be more than if you're my mentee, I call you up and be like, Hey Sidney, how's it going? It's cool, great, click, hang up the phone, want a little bit more than that. And we provide a little bit of framework around that, but we don't necessarily go in and tell you what you have to do. It's more about establishing that relationship and it kind of flows along the semester track, right? So, in the beginning, maybe in September, we're expecting you to have a get-to know-you kind of situation. And then October, when we get closer to the midterms, talk about studying and talk about pressure. And then when we get to November, you know, now it's kind of time for that. What am I thinking about for next semester? And is this a good fit for me, the program I'm choosing and the trajectory that I'm on for my life, is that a good fit? And then you know, December is the time for holidays and re-evaluation and taking the next step and seeing if you want to go, go on with your mentorship.

Sidney (12:51):

So honestly, I mean, I'm a graduate student, so I know what it's like to be busy. But that sounds very doable and honestly, very rewarding too. So, I think it's definitely worth the small-time investment that you have to put in. There's a lot of reward there. So, what is the, I mean, we've already talked about this a little bit, but I want to hear a little bit more about what you have to say about when is the right time for mentorship in someone's life.

Gerry (13:20):

Well, I think actually the tough times are the best times, right? And this is true of the mentor and the mentee. So, if you're having a difficult time, a lot of professionals like myself, you do something for so long. And I hear folks when I call them up and say, Hey, will you be a mentor? And they're like, I don't have time. I'm really burned out trying to figure out my life. That's actually, those are key phrases saying, that's the best time to have a mentee in your life. I can answer this question philosophically, psychologically, or just culturally. So, let's stay with, stay with culture. I don't want to get too far off in the weeds, but when you have that, when you're full, you need to I'm going to jump into philosophy. Now, if you're full, you need to be empty.

Gerry (14:02):

If you're empty, you need to be full. So, when somebody is, has a lot of knowledge, a lot of experience in, if you're feeling that burnout, maybe sharing that with somebody else and getting their perspective on it, especially somebody who's hungry for knowledge, maybe somebody who's a student is a great thing. And then by filling up that student, that student now feels empowered, enriched, and experienced. And then they share and mentorship doesn't always happen in a formal situation. It can happen organically. We call this drive by mentoring, great book about this. And basically, they feel empowered. And now they hear a conversation with another student and they're like, oh man, that Mackinaw Hall. And then they share a story from their mentor and everybody has a good laugh and somebody learns something. And then that culture of mentorship begins to spread, and humans I'm going to get a psychological human aren’t we tribal people, right?

Gerry (14:56):

We're, we're designed to interact and work together to a better end. So, I tell people that some of the best times to mentor are some of your tough times retirees. I see this. When I talk to retirees, they've been in this corporate world that's been structured. They had responsibility and authority. And then all of a sudden that goes away and they're like, what do I do? And they still feel that need to interact and enrich other people. It's a great time to mentor. A first year student doesn't have a lot of time. Things seem crazy. They're not sure what they want to do with their life. And that's a perfect time to talk to a mentor. And the peer in the middle, the peer in the middle is trying to gain knowledge experience. If you're a business major, show me a job where you don't interact with people and I'll give you a hundred-dollar bill. I mean, call me up, email me a hundred dollars. Bill challenge to anybody can find me a business job where you don't work with people. Find me a job where you don't work with people. You're always going to work with people. So, you folks in an HR, you folks in management, especially jump at this opportunity because you get this opportunity to experiment, learn and enrich other people's lives. That is going to be your chosen career. This is a great time to rehearse that and see what that's like and gain some knowledge.

Sidney (16:11):

It seems like you have some really, really rewarding moments from mentorship in your life. So, I want to know who were some of your mentors and what were they like?

Gerry (16:21):

Boy they're ongoing and they keep going. And some of them are still here. Bob Stoll, director of student life, Grand Valley, like 38 years, just retired. He's going to be on the show in a couple of weeks, was a mentor to me while I was a student. Paul Isley, Seidman School of Business was one of my former professors. And I still, I feel like I owe Dr. P a hundred bucks. Every time I talked to him on the phone, he's a super knowledgeable person. It's like having my own personal board of directors. But I learned a lot from folks like yourself in the office. You know, we're not in a formal mentor, mentee relationship, but we're helping each other with opportunities like this for networking together where we're doing things. It's a mentorship without the title and without the reporting on it.

Gerry (17:10):

But those are some of my mentors and I still call on them today. And I've had many situations in my life, personal professional, and you don't have to go at it alone. I have called my personal board of directors not like we had a meeting at my house, but I called them all up and said, this is what I'm facing. What do you think I should do? And the great mentor will lay it down for you. And sometimes it's not what you want to hear, but it's what you need to hear. They take off the proverbial gloves and they say, Gerry, you need to hear this right now. It's going to be tough, but you, you need to hear this. And that comes through trust and relationships that you build over time. But those are some of mine, but potentially anybody you encounter, you can have this mentor, mentee relationship.

Sidney (17:53):

Those kinds of, you know, just transparent and honest relationships are one of the most valuable I think that we can get in this life. So that's really, really cool that you've been able to experience that. And I hope that more people can experience that too. And people will this upcoming year. So, in a mentor/ mentee relationship, it seems like there's a lot of reward for the mentee, but is there any reward for the mentor?

Gerry (18:22):

There is and a lot of people go through life and you start kind of in what we call the three S mode. So, the first one is survival. You've just graduated from college. You may or may not have some debt. You've never made any real money and you want to get out in the world and you want to do the thing. So, you go out there, you get the job, you pound on the door and you start making some money and you start to survive, and that's step one. And then step two, you want success for whatever that means to you. For some people, that's a promotion, or running the department, or making this amount of money, or it's buying that boat or that cottage, or taking that trip to Europe, whatever it is. But almost inevitably, everybody that I meet, the volunteers for a mentorship program wants significance.

Gerry (19:06):

And that's the third step. So, after you've had your fill of those other two, they want significance and there's, I'm going to go psychological again. There’re studies that show that people do things in the voluntary method. If they volunteer, they work harder than if they're paid. So those are the kinds of folks that I look for, but the, the mentors will tell you that there's no greater feeling and I've experienced this cause I've done mentorship with Grand Valley for it's going on eight years now. And it's, it's fantastic when the phone rings and you pick it up and it's one of your former mentees and they say, Hey, you remember we discussed this thing or you told me this story or whatever, or I faced this challenge and I got through it, or I got the job, or I did the thing. And that is where the juice is.

Gerry (19:52):

That's, that's like lightening out of sky. If that doesn't get you excited. And every mentor that I know will tell you that somebody in their life did that for them. Like they were there for them and they want to continue on and they want to do this for somebody else. That's the reward of being a mentor is as being part of a community and being something bigger than yourself. And then I guarantee you do it long enough someday. You're going to get that phone call. And it's, it's a really great feeling. People are never going to remember how many hours you worked. Maybe they won't even remember how much money you made. But they're going to remember how you made them feel.

Sidney (20:31):

Yeah.

Gerry (20:33):

And you know. We have great stories of that here at Grand Valley. And I'm here to make sure that continues

Sidney (20:40):

Wow. Well, what makes a good mentor or mentee then?

Gerry (20:45):

The, the hot button phrase that goes around that if you do any kind of reading about this is going to be learning agility. And learning agility is basically believing that something can be learned. If you're the person who believes you've learned everything and you know everything, you're missing out on the opportunity to actually learn. If you're the kind of person who doesn't know doesn't have a clue, doesn't have an idea. You're the perfect person for this because you're willing to explore that. And that's true of the mentor and the mentee. If you're the kind of person who wants to make those lifelong connections and you, you like to transmit, I like people who transmit compassion, you know, they're those kinds of people that just want to be, want to be helpful, that the kind of people that want to help and being open and learning agile is the key is believing that you can learn something from somebody else, both the mentor and the mentee.

Sidney (21:43):

Wow. Well, I think you know, I think it takes a special kind of person to be a mentor/mentee, but I think a lot of people have it in them if they, you know, allow themselves to be learning, have that learning agility, like you said, I think that's a lot of this allowing yourself to be there. So, we've already touched on this a little bit, but I want to hear a little bit more if there's more information about the responsibilities of the first-year mentee, the peer, and the professional community mentor.

Gerry (22:13):

Yeah. So, we talked about kind of, I guess, the requirements of what we expect as far as kind of the check-ins and, and kind of that part of the program, the responsibilities are pretty simple. The responsibility of the, the first year is to stay in contact and be open and willing to learn and being willing to ask questions. You know Anna was on the show and she talked about how as a freshman she just felt kind of afraid in a lot of situations to kind of ask questions because she thought it was a silly question, or it would come up later, or you want to be perceived as knowing what you're doing. So, you pretend to know, or somebody asks you something and you're like, oh yeah, I know about that. And you really don't, you miss the opportunity to learn.

Gerry (22:55):

So that's, that's the responsibility of kind of that first-year student, the peer has dual responsibility. They have the responsibility that I just mentioned to be open to their community mentor if they choose to have one and just to be there and be willing to say, I don't know. So, if your mentee comes to you with a question and you don't know the answer or situation, reach out to our office or, or reach out to your other mentors and, you know, be diligent to try to find that answer. And the professional mentor is their responsibility to, to share and be open with your network, be trusting and, you know, expose kind of your, your opportunities that you're aware of. A lot of my mentees, like their, their biggest, greatest experience was not my, you know, philosophizing about wisdom. It was the time I took him to the office or I took him on the, you know, the thing we did if I was driving a sales route, took them out to see actual customers. And they got the watch business in action. We spend a lot of time in the university, theorizing things, nothing beats going out and actually doing the thing.

Sidney (24:03):

So, if I was a freshman and I was in the program or I guess if I was a mentor, like one of the peer mentors who would…

Gerry (24:16):

Which we hope you're going to be.

Sidney (24:16):

Um who will be my mentor or mentee and how does the pairing work?

Gerry (24:22):

Yeah. So, I talked about this a little bit. Pairing is really, really important. And so, we send you, when you decide to join the program, we send you a questionnaire. And then based off the questionnaire, we sit down and we have a team of folks in the office and we do this together. I don't independently do this and we discuss pairs and, and we try to honor the wishes of both the mentor and mentee as best we can. So, if you write in that questionnaire that you want to be an entrepreneur and you want to start your own business and that business, and the more detail I have the better, and you think you want to be in, I don't know, whatever the, whatever the business is, you want to be a food distributor. I will do my best to find somebody in the network that's on that trajectory or in that path so that you can talk to that person.

Gerry (25:12):

And that's what's different about our program and that's why it's limited because it takes a tremendous amount of time. I also have to put my personal network into action and share these folks with you, you know, so I am using kind of my personal network to do that. Our peer mentors, peer mentors, sorry, are juniors and seniors or graduate students like yourself. Usually we know them, we've asked for faculty recommendations, but we also kind of scour and look for these folks. Some of them are running campus organizations and those kinds of things, but others are, are we encounter them. I encountered a student yesterday who was like, I, I'm not sure. I know you. Who are you? What are you doing when I, I told the student, they're like, that's cool. Can I be part of that? That's the person I'm looking for.

Sidney (26:06):

Yes.

Gerry (26:07):

And you know me, I walked down the hall and probably talked to everybody who was willing.

Sidney (26:11):

You'll talk to anyone.

Sidney (26:14):

I'm pretty sure if like, you were like lost in the woods or like on a deserted island or something like, you'd probably make friends with like the leaves or something like that. You're just that friendly and like able to make friends.

Gerry (26:26):

Well thank you. The university is a friendly place, so it's very easy to do this here.

Sidney (26:32):

Well, that's good. That's good. So Grand Valley already has a ton of really great resources such as the advising center or career services, which honestly, all Grand Valley students should check out at some point because they are such valuable resources.

Gerry (26:49):

And alumni and graduate student's career, career center is awesome.

Sidney (26:52):

It is.

Sidney (26:52):

Seriously, one of the most useful things that we have available to us, but this is our little career services shout out, but back to mentorship, how is mentorship different from those resources that already exist on campus?

Gerry (27:07):

We talked a little bit earlier about coaching versus mentoring and I see career services, a tutoring writing center. These are coaching tools. So, when you want to learn a specific skill, and this is good for the mentors to hear too, because if your mentee comes to you and says, I need help with interviewing well, a lot of professionals haven't interviewed for a job in probably years. So, they're like, Hmm, I don't know reach out to our office. And then we'll put those folks in contact because there are events. And there are folks that sit down and we'll do mock interviews with you. As a student, we'll show you how to clean up your resume. We'll show you how to use LinkedIn, Indeed, Handshake and the other digital tools to do job searches. So, the mentor is more there for, I'm not sure I want to do this with my life, or I'm not sure this major is for me, or maybe I don't want to be a manager, maybe I want to be an accountant. You know? Those are, those are good mentor questions when you're trying to figure out your life. You know, I'm really struggling with being away from home or I'm really struggling with my roommates or my suite mates. How do I handle conflict? Those kinds of things. Those are great mentor questions, the tools of all of, all the things we just mentioned, those are coaching things and they work hand in hand, but they are very different.

Sidney (28:30):

Yeah. I think, yeah, those kinds of personal life questions are just, yeah. Those big questions that you may ask yourself. Like those are really great questions to ask your mentor. And I know I've talked to my mentors about those too, just when I feel like I'm having a midlife crisis at the age of 20, like those questions to ask that those are great for your mentor. And yeah, I think that's a really valuable resource in a relationship. So, the labor market right now is very tight and yeah, it's insane. And, and employers are scrambling to hire can a mentorship help me get a job?

Gerry (29:13):

Not only can it help you get a job, it's going to help that employer find employees because, and it's cosmic you ask this question because I literally got a call yesterday from a former colleague who has moved into a management position and called me up and said, Hey I saw on indeed, you're working at Grand Valley. We can't get anybody to apply for our jobs. We, you know, we're on what social media platforms we get on to recruit students. And, and maybe we should do an internship. We don't know. And I challenge the professional business folks who are listening out there. When's the last time that you sat down with somebody in their twenties, college aged student, and who's not related to you or working for you, and had a conversation to find out how they tick and know what's going on because it's very, very different now than it was before.

Gerry (30:13):

And the other thing I challenge and I said to this employer, I said, well, if you were laid off or you didn't have a job, how would you look for a job right now? Would you, would you get on Indeed or Handshake? And they're like, nah, I would, I would call people on my network and, and find out what's going on. Thank you exactly. That's exactly what we're talking about. So, you're telling me, that's how you'd go look for job. But when you want an employee, you're going to turn around and just turn to the things you just said, you're, you're not comfortable with.

Sidney (30:42):

Right.

Gerry (30:42):

So why not develop a network with the people you're trying to hire and then have some genuine actual conversations with them when they're not in a position of being a subordinate to you. Or pulled into you in any way or related to you and build a network of the students, get to know them and then recruit and employ them when you can actually present yourself beyond what you can say in a 300 word resume or in a tweet or some other way, the way you just said you would do it.

Gerry (31:18):

Right. So, use your network. So, develop a network. So, I told this employer, I said, oh yeah, I can help you join the mentorship program. And then we had this conversation.

Sidney (31:28):

Yeah.

Gerry (31:28):

And I said, and then go out and figure out how to design an internship that people actually want to do.

Sidney (31:36):

Right.

Sidney (31:38):

So, it seems like, yeah, this mentorship program is not only valuable to the college students, but also to all members of the community that are involved with this, like we talked about. So that's really, it's really cool that, you know, people get to be a part of this and I get to be a part of this potentially too. So yeah.

Gerry (32:00):

Or counting on it, recruiting slowly reeling you in.

Sidney (32:04):

The pressure is on. Thank you. Gerry, it was so much fun being on the show today and explaining the Mentorship Program. We wish you and the program all the best.

Gerry (32:14):

Thanks Sidney. I enjoyed our time. I appreciate you helping out.

New Speaker (32:20):

Thank you for sailing along on this episode of the Seidman Mentorship Podcast. For more information on the Seidman School of Business Mentorship Program at Grand Valley State University, set your heading to www.gvsu.edu/Seidman. If you have a story to tell, know someone we should interview, or have questions or comments, email us at go2gvbiz@gvsu.edu. Until next time, keep a weathered eye on the horizon and we wish you Fairwinds, so long.

Speaker 4 (33:28):

[Outro Music].