INTRODUCTION: Welcome to the NSPCC Learning podcast, where we share learning and expertise in child protection from inside and outside of the

INTRODUCTION: organisation, we aim to create debate, encourage, reflection and share good

INTRODUCTION: practice on how we can all work together to keep babies, children and young people safe.

ALI: Hi, and thanks for listening to the latest NSPCC Learning podcast. In this episode, we talk to

ALI: Jahnine Davis and Nick Marsh, founders of Listen Up, an organisation that engages

ALI: professionals to critically reflect on approaches to safeguarding children and young people.

ALI: - and you'll find links to Listen Up on this podcast's webpage. The conversation with Jahnine and Nick was recorded

ALI: in May 2021 and focuses on intersectionality, which underpins all of Listen Up's

9 00:00:54,260 --> 00:1:00,350 ALI: work. Intersectionality is vital for professionals who work with children and young people

ALI: to know about, understand and apply in practice. Jahnine and Nick sat down with Ineke Houtenbos, a senior consultant with the NSPCC, where they

ALI: discuss what intersectionality is, its origins and its importance in safeguarding and protecting children and young people.

INEKE: Hi, so we're sitting here with Jahnine and Nick

INEKE: from Listen Up, and today we are going to

INEKE: be talking about intersectionality.

INEKE: And the question that we really want to cover today

INEKE: is: what is intersectionality and how

INEKE: does it impact on children and young people,

INEKE: especially when it comes to safeguarding and child

INEKE: protection? There's a lot for us to cover today.

INEKE: So who wants to start?

INEKE: What do we actually mean when we talk about

INEKE: intersectionality? What does that mean to us?

JAHNINE: Intersectionality means, ultimately,

JAHNINE: how we are positioned within

JAHNINE: society, within the world.

JAHNINE: It allows us to explore all of the different

JAHNINE: elements which make up our identities.

JAHNINE: So that includes our race, ethnicity, our

JAHNINE: gender, sexuality, our age - all

JAHNINE: of these areas - our locations, where we live.

JAHNINE: So intersectionality is around how

JAHNINE: our intersecting identities collide,

JAHNINE: how they intersect, how they come together so that

JAHNINE: we're not just taking universal approaches or

JAHNINE: perspectives to understand experiences,

JAHNINE: but instead we're looking at how me,

JAHNINE: for example, how my intersections as a black

JAHNINE: working class woman, how I'm not just going to

JAHNINE: experience racism over there, or sexism

JAHNINE: over there, or classism over there, but actually

JAHNINE: all of those experiences are experienced

JAHNINE: simultaneously.

SPEAKER: So intersectionality really allows professionals to

SPEAKER: just be that bit more curious to ensure we aren't

SPEAKER: just taking a one-size-fits-all approach, but

SPEAKER: instead we're really looking at those various

SPEAKER: different dynamics which make up who we are.

NICK: There's a quote by Audre Lorde that I really like when

NICK: I think about intersectionality - and I might not get

NICK: the whole quote right off the top of my head - but

NICK: she talks about, without intersectionality, we're

NICK: being encouraged to just pluck out one aspect of our

NICK: character and seeing this as a meaningful whole,

NICK: as opposed to our complete experiences of who we

NICK: are. Actually, without this, we might take a mono-lens

NICK: and just see a person as a male, a female,

NICK: as part of the LGBTQ+ community, a Black

NICK: person, an Asian person, rather than seeing how all

NICK: these interact and compound one another.

INEKE: Absolutely, because I think the concept gives us the

INEKE: opportunity to really look

INEKE: at a person's lived experience without putting them

INEKE: into boxes. Because that can be very easy sometimes.

INEKE: And I think especially when we're talking about

INEKE: working with people, whether they be young people or

INEKE: adults, we often want that tick box of, 'where

INEKE: do they fit?'. But this concept has

INEKE: the power to encourage

INEKE: us to think about people as more than that.

INEKE: Because there's so much more to all of our lived

INEKE: experiences. And this concept really gives us an

INEKE: opportunity to talk about it from that point of view.

JAHNINE: Definitely. Especially when

JAHNINE: we think about child protection and safeguarding

JAHNINE: because intersectionality isn't new.

JAHNINE: And I think that's something Nick and I always

JAHNINE: encourage professional services to really

JAHNINE: ensure they don't erase the origin

JAHNINE: and the history of intersectionality. Because

JAHNINE: intersectionality really was founded within black

JAHNINE: feminist activism.

JAHNINE: That's when we see intersectionality really taking

JAHNINE: hold to challenge the kind of status quo, the

JAHNINE: universal assumptions around what

JAHNINE: feminist activism was - that actually didn't

JAHNINE: acknowledge, or always consider, those various

JAHNINE: different challenges, experiences, that Black and

JAHNINE: minoritised women and girls encountered.

SPEAKER: So when we think about intersectionality, we

SPEAKER: can't think about intersectionality without talking

SPEAKER: about Black feminist activism.

SPEAKER: And the reason why that's so important is because

SPEAKER: intersectionality allows us to explore

SPEAKER: how black women and girls experiences

SPEAKER: of gendered violence have positioned

SPEAKER: them in ways where sometimes those experiences

SPEAKER: haven't always been acknowledged. They haven't

SPEAKER: always been amplified.

SPEAKER: As intersectionality has developed over the years -

SPEAKER: we have Kimberley Crenshaw in the late 80s, early

SPEAKER: 90s from her work, 'Mapping the Margins', talking

SPEAKER: about intersectionality, actually coining the term

SPEAKER: intersectionality as a theory, not just as

SPEAKER: a concept, has been instrumental

SPEAKER: in Black feminist activism years

SPEAKER: prior. So I think what we're now seeing,

SPEAKER: which is really exciting, is how intersectionality

SPEAKER: is starting to take form in safeguarding

SPEAKER: practice. And I think that's something which is new

SPEAKER: because, as I said, in the VAWG sector - violence

SPEAKER: against women and girls - it's something we've been

SPEAKER: seeing and knowing for years.

SPEAKER: What we're now seeing is how it's now being lifted

SPEAKER: up in safeguarding.

NICK: When we think about safeguarding - I'm social worker

NICK: and I reflect back on my social work training,

NICK: my social work degree and even my practice, we're

NICK: often encouraged to see

NICK: young people through a snapshot.

NICK: So when we think of an assessment, it's only ever a

NICK: snapshot of a young person's life.

NICK: But what this can do is pluck them from their

NICK: social experiences, pluck them from their identity.

NICK: And we might see - just

NICK: thinking about age, for example, adolescent

NICK: development - not every young person

NICK: fits neatly into our psycho-social

NICK: theories around adolescent development.

NICK: We often see adolescent development as, 'oh, they're

NICK: ten-years-old they're now entering adolescence',

NICK: rather than thinking, 'who is the young person?

NICK: What are their experiences?

NICK: What are their family's experiences -

NICK: inter-generationally and contemporary?' and thinking

NICK: that adolescent development doesn't start at ten, it

NICK: actually is, who the family are, it's their

NICK: experiences - any migration patterns, their

NICK: ethnicity, class, gender, etc.

NICK: So adolescent development starts way before the young

NICK: person is even born. So I think we need to start to

NICK: really critique our understanding and our assessments

NICK: by thinking more systemically, and intersectionality

NICK: is part of that.

INEKE: Absolutely. And I think it's really important that we

INEKE: recognise that we already have that language

INEKE: in social work practice.

INEKE: Because we very often talk about capturing the

INEKE: child's views.

INEKE: But that's very different for a child to articulate.

INEKE: And always recognising, too, that whenever we

INEKE: are in that interaction with a child,

INEKE: there is a level of power

INEKE: dynamic at play.

INEKE: And children are very good sometimes at

INEKE: knowing how to act in certain situations.

INEKE: So we as professionals have to ask

INEKE: those questions. We have to ask those difficult

INEKE: questions of, 'what is life like for you?

INEKE: What does that mean for you?

INEKE: What does that look like?'.

INEKE: Because if we're not, how are we ever going to

INEKE: capture their views if we don't understand where

INEKE: they're coming from?

JAHNINE: And I think the point you raise comes up quite a

JAHNINE: lot in terms of those difficult questions.

JAHNINE: And something I always invite professionals to

JAHNINE: consider is, who is it difficult for?

JAHNINE: Because actually these are experiences, I think,

JAHNINE: how if we're not used to normalising those

JAHNINE: discussions and we're not used to as professionals

JAHNINE: having coversations about identity, about bias,

JAHNINE: about discrimination, they're difficult for us,

JAHNINE: they're not difficult for that young person.

JAHNINE: They have been navigating those experiences

JAHNINE: throughout their life course.

JAHNINE: I think it's more about, as professionals, how can

JAHNINE: we hold space to ensure that these conversations

JAHNINE: don't only come up when we have somebody from

JAHNINE: a minoritised or marginalised background.

JAHNINE: So I think instead it's about, how can we ensure

JAHNINE: that these are just a part of our day today?

INEKE: Absolutely. That that's kind of just a normal part of

INEKE: being able to explore those experiences

INEKE: with young people.

INEKE: And sometimes that does mean that no matter how

INEKE: experienced you are as a social worker, that you need

INEKE: to go back and check yourself and kind of go, 'what

INEKE: questions do I need to be asking?

INEKE: And if I'm not asking them, why?'

NICK: And also it's not just about

NICK: questions.

NICK: Jahnine and myself were providing training recently

NICK: and some of the conversations

NICK: centred around; a white professional said, 'sometimes

NICK: as a white professional, when I raise issues around

NICK: racism, homophobia, sexism,

NICK: I feel like I'm making an issue and the young person

NICK: might not have experienced that.' But I think

NICK: we have to not place as much onus

NICK: on the young person being able to articulate what

NICK: systemic racism or systemic social inequality

NICK: feels like. I know as a LGBT

NICK: young person, I didn't necessarily know

NICK: what homophobia was, or what I was experiencing

NICK: might have been homophobic. I, as a child, and

NICK: understanding child development, we know that we

NICK: internalise these feelings, 'oh, it's me, it is

NICK: how I feel about myself. I must be not as good as

NICK: etc.' So we can't always just rely on a young person

NICK: being able to articulate or pinpoint their

NICK: experiences. We have to also use our

NICK: understanding of how the world functions and

NICK: acknowledge that racism and social inequality, exists,

NICK: sexism exists, and apply that to our assessments as

NICK: well.

INEKE: And ableism as well.

INEKE: You know, from all these different points of view

INEKE: that we're knowledgeable enough

INEKE: ourselves to have those conversations effectively

INEKE: with young people in a safe way.

INEKE: But that's I think, again, is the only way that we're

INEKE: ever going to really get their views and their voice

INEKE: heard. And we know that from serious case reviews,

INEKE: going back to Victoria Climbie, when

INEKE: we're talking about what was that child going

INEKE: through? Do we really understand that?

INEKE: Who asked? Who stopped to ask, 'what

INEKE: is life like for you?'.

INEKE: And I think it's very easy sometimes to get caught up

INEKE: in the process, and forget that

INEKE: there is a child with lived experience that really

INEKE: matters. That really matters for us to be able to

INEKE: effectively engage with them and effectively affect

INEKE: change in their life, we need to understand who they

INEKE: are.

JAHNINE: I agree. And I think in order to do that we have to

JAHNINE: be brave to know that, as professionals, we don't

JAHNINE: know everything. And there are some times we're

JAHNINE: going to make mistakes. And I think we have to

JAHNINE: acknowledge, unfortunately, that sometimes due to

JAHNINE: this kind of blame, this culture of blame, it can

JAHNINE: make professionals quite... it's quite difficult to

JAHNINE: say, 'well, actually, I don't know' or 'I can't be

JAHNINE: knowledgeable on every single thing related to

JAHNINE: equity, diversity and inclusion', for example.

JAHNINE: No, no, you can't. What you can do is be brave to

JAHNINE: acknowledge what those gaps are so then you know

JAHNINE: what support you might need to continue developing

JAHNINE: your learning.

SPEAKER: When we think about work with young people, I think

SPEAKER: we focus so much on

SPEAKER: the young person, their identity, their

SPEAKER: positionality, but we also need to be able to

SPEAKER: acknowledge our own, that there were various

SPEAKER: different experiences in that space which are

SPEAKER: intersecting and coming out and playing out in

SPEAKER: various different ways. And as professionals, we

SPEAKER: have our own intersecting identities, too, as Nick

SPEAKER: was just sharing.

SPEAKER: So I think, when we think about intersectionality,

SPEAKER: the word itself can feel really quite long and

SPEAKER: complex. It really is not. We're talking about

SPEAKER: identity. We're inviting you as professionals, as

SPEAKER: services to consider identity on a micro

SPEAKER: like level in terms of with family, how

SPEAKER: identity interacts within your familial context,

SPEAKER: within your neighbourhoods, but also what that then

SPEAKER: means from a macro level in terms of looking at

SPEAKER: those wider, different elements of structural

SPEAKER: and systemic inequalities and how they

SPEAKER: operationalise.

SPEAKER: There was a point you raised around assessments and

SPEAKER: the different challenges with assessments, I would

SPEAKER: say that one of the challenges is that they're

SPEAKER: still quite universal. That they focus on universal

SPEAKER: experiences based on a dominant group

SPEAKER: of young people we might research; based on what

SPEAKER: research is saying, so that what we don't

SPEAKER: necessarily have are assessments which allow

SPEAKER: for that intersectional experience.

SPEAKER: And that's why it's even more important for

SPEAKER: professionals to use their professional curiosity

SPEAKER: to apply that to their learning, to ensure we are

SPEAKER: thinking about those different identities and we're

SPEAKER: not just saying what we've done, this assessment,

SPEAKER: this is what it is. And then we've ticked this box

SPEAKER: and that's it. How do we ensure that we apply that

SPEAKER: intersectional understanding to

SPEAKER: everything that we do?

NICK: We have to think about what underpins the assessment

NICK: framework on our contemporary application of that,

NICK: and also what underpins social work.

NICK: If we think about the theories, social

NICK: work learning models and social work theories, we

NICK: have to think of Bowlby attachment theory, Erik

NICK: Erickson life-cycle, Bronfenbrenner systems

NICK: theory and ecological theory - and although his work,

NICK: especially in the later years, did pick

NICK: up people's bio-ecological elements, when we

NICK: think of systems, they're are actually very

NICK: heteronormative, Eurocentric and ableist.

NICK: So instantly our training as a social worker,

NICK: we have to then apply a critical lens

NICK: to what we're doing and how our training has been

NICK: embedded upon us and within us,

NICK: and how we view young people, how we view child

NICK: development, how we view healthy relationships, how we

NICK: view independence, what independence

NICK: looks like, how we view risk-taking and think about

NICK: all of our theories push us down one

NICK: avenue and then being able to have spaces to

NICK: critically reflect on that and what that means and how

NICK: that influences our policies, our interventions,

NICK: our practises, and how gendered they can be, how

NICK: Eurocentric they can be, and all the other elements of

NICK: intersectionality. I think what further can compound

NICK: that is, who are our team?

NICK: Who are the decision makers?

NICK: Where's diversity within team?

NICK: Is it front-facing? It is right through to senior

NICK: leadership? Is it male and female?

NICK: Who are creating and designing our

NICK: interventions? And what does this mean when we then

NICK: apply them to young people?

INEKE: Absolutely. And I think, too, about the concept of

INEKE: being evidence-based.

INEKE: You know, a lot of organisations talk about being

INEKE: evidence-based, a lot of the systems that

INEKE: we use, as you say, evidence-based.

INEKE: And yet we don't necessarily take that time always to

INEKE: critically reflect on who was

INEKE: represented in that evidence and who did we speak to,

INEKE: which voices are being heard on the basis of that

INEKE: evidence. And the work that you've done, Jahnine,

INEKE: around giving black girls a voice in CSA

INEKE: research is so important because I don't even think

INEKE: that people recognise that, or

INEKE: ask that question, we just kind of see

INEKE: evidence-based, peer-reviewed, wonderful, let's go.

INEKE: And we're not stopping to go, 'actually who was

INEKE: researched here?'. Because that matters.

INEKE: Especially when we're talking about all those

INEKE: universal services and all the universal ways that we

INEKE: try to roll out what we do.

INEKE: It's just not always going to reach those

INEKE: communities. And that's my pet peeve about that

INEKE: word of, 'hard to reach'.

INEKE: Communities aren't hard to reach.

INEKE: They're right there.

INEKE: They're right there. It's incumbent upon us, as

INEKE: organisations and professionals, to know enough.

INEKE: To have appropriate conversations.

INEKE: To educate ourselves on all those aspects of

INEKE: intersectionality so that we can go into those

INEKE: communities and have an intelligent

INEKE: conversation about what might be going on for those

INEKE: people.

INEKE: Language is so important because language in itself

INEKE: can really place a barrier.

INEKE: And from our own learning, if we continue to use

INEKE: language such as, 'disengaged', 'not engaged',

INEKE: 'hard to reach', when actually, I think part

INEKE: of that difficult question we were talking about

INEKE: earlier, I think the difficult question is, as

INEKE: professionals, as services, asking ourselves,

INEKE: actually, are our services hard to reach?

INEKE: And how often do we look at our services, rather than

INEKE: placing the onus and responsibility of traditionally

INEKE: marginalised, minoritised communities

INEKE: to, 'why are you not coming in?' Or 'what work

INEKE: do we need to do?'. There is something about

INEKE: constantly questioning, reflecting and thinking about

INEKE: how our services are reachable.

INEKE: And if they're not, what work do we need to do?

INEKE: Who are our critical friends?

INEKE: How evolved our we in working in partnership with

INEKE: specialist organisations?

INEKE: I think there is something about having to take that

INEKE: additional time to ensure that we are being

INEKE: inclusive and equitable.

INEKE: That it can't just be that universal approach

INEKE: or assumption that by having somebody with a

INEKE: diverse workforce means we've ticked the box.

INEKE: No, it doesn't. Because if that diversity, that

INEKE: visible diversity, is not something we're seeing

INEKE: reflected within middle management, within senior

INEKE: leadership, within the board, then again, we're still

INEKE: perpetuating and mimicking the social inequalities

INEKE: we see happening externally.

SPEAKER: So I think it's not just the outside work

SPEAKER: in terms of how we work with various different

SPEAKER: young people, especially when professionals working

SPEAKER: with young people from different backgrounds to

SPEAKER: themselves, it's also thinking about what can we be

SPEAKER: doing within our services to really strengthen our

SPEAKER: approaches, to ensure that when we talk about

SPEAKER: intersectionality, we are talking about equity, we

SPEAKER: are talking about diversity and inclusion.

SPEAKER: So how does that become just embedded across all

SPEAKER: layers, not just on the ground where we tend

SPEAKER: to see much more diversity

SPEAKER: playing out?

NICK: What this says to me, Jahnine, just thinking about

NICK: this conversation is, we have to commit

NICK: serious resources to this.

NICK: It can't be at the end of the financial year you have

NICK: ten thousand pounds left over, so let's get some EDI

NICK: (equality, diversion and inclusion) training. It has

NICK: to be integral to everything that we do.

NICK: We have to have spaces systemically

NICK: from recruitment, retention,

NICK: reward, recognition, critiquing

NICK: our assessments and our tools, our policies, looking

NICK: through our practices, holding space,

NICK: having uncomfortable conversations around

NICK: intersectional experiences.

NICK: It has to be a real and permanent commitment

NICK: to this area of practice.

NICK: To just have it as piecemeal, or something that's nice

NICK: to do, is really providing a disservice

NICK: to young people and our families that are from

NICK: minoritised and marginalised groups.

JAHNINE: For sure. When

JAHNINE: we think about intersectionality, it shouldn't just

JAHNINE: be wrapped up as this

JAHNINE: area of, 'oh gosh, you know, it's going to be

JAHNINE: challenging or complex'.

JAHNINE: It's actually an opportunity to just celebrate

JAHNINE: difference. To celebrate diversity.

JAHNINE: We're all different. Obviously, those who

JAHNINE: are listening can't see, but I'm just looking at

JAHNINE: Nick, Ineke, Ali, me, and

JAHNINE: we all are from different backgrounds, walks of

JAHNINE: life, some of that's visible, some of it is not,

JAHNINE: and why are we not celebrating that?

JAHNINE: Why is it sometimes so difficult just to talk about

JAHNINE: identity as something rich and vibrant?

JAHNINE: Something which we should all be very proud of.

SPEAKER: And when we think about the work we, if we're

SPEAKER: thinking about it being person-centred,

SPEAKER: strengths-based and so forth, why are we not

SPEAKER: thinking about having those questions within

SPEAKER: our sessions? Within those one-to-one spaces with

SPEAKER: young people? Because it's not just about

SPEAKER: acknowledging and exploring the possible various

SPEAKER: different oppressions they may have experienced -

SPEAKER: or maybe at a heightened risk of experiencing.

SPEAKER: It's also an opportunity for professionals,

SPEAKER: especially where you may not be used to working

SPEAKER: with young people who differ from you in terms of

SPEAKER: your backgrounds, it's an opportunity just to hear

SPEAKER: and learn and share.

SPEAKER: So I think intersectionality, again, allows

SPEAKER: you to just explore and to go that bit further; to

SPEAKER: look beyond the universal lens; to think about that

SPEAKER: kind of kaleidoscopic lens.

SPEAKER: So you're not just having this one-size-fits-all,

SPEAKER: but actually an opportunity to just explore your

SPEAKER: various differences.

SPEAKER: And I think that's something we should celebrate.

NICK: Intersectionality isn't just something we apply to

NICK: others. It applies to ourselves.

NICK: It applies to our colleagues.

NICK: Our peers. Our senior leaders.

NICK: Understanding how all of us have intersectional

NICK: experiences. We're all positioned differently in the

NICK: world and experience the world differently.

NICK: And that changes over time, on resources,

NICK: on climate.

NICK: So our experiences aren't static either.

NICK: So it's really acknowledging that intersectionality

NICK: has a fluidity to it as well.

JAHNINE: Some of the questions we don't always ask

JAHNINE: ourselves, or the reflections for me, should be

JAHNINE: around, actually, what have we missed?

JAHNINE: Because if we're not taking an intersectional

JAHNINE: approach to our work, what does that mean?

JAHNINE: What's the impact of that?

JAHNINE: We focus so much on the good

JAHNINE: intention of everything that we do, or not wanting

JAHNINE: to get it wrong, or being really concerned about

JAHNINE: saying the wrong thing and language - and yes,

JAHNINE: let's acknowledge that, let's acknowledge and

JAHNINE: support professionals to hold

JAHNINE: space where they can feel bold and courageous to

JAHNINE: say, 'do you know what, I'm worried about saying

JAHNINE: this word because am I going to be accused of this?

JAHNINE: I don't know what if I say this? Is this wrong?'

JAHNINE: OK, let's have that conversation - but let that not

JAHNINE: overtake the focus and the importance of

JAHNINE: acknowledging impact.

SPEAKER: Now, when we focus on impact, let's think about if

SPEAKER: we do not take intersectional approaches to the

SPEAKER: work we do, what is the impact?

SPEAKER: What does that mean? Picking up on your point Ineke

SPEAKER: around my work around Black girls and child sexual

SPEAKER: abuse, something which always

SPEAKER: stands out for me is that one of the participants

SPEAKER: said, 'well, who's protecting us?

SPEAKER: Who is protecting us?'.

SPEAKER: And that impact, that feeling of, no one is seeing

SPEAKER: us. No one's seeing our experiences.

SPEAKER: Because services continue

SPEAKER: to provide this universal approach or services,

SPEAKER: because of the lack of development or

SPEAKER: opportunities that professionals have to ignore and

SPEAKER: explore their bias, they're just seeing us as being

SPEAKER: angry and aggressive. They're not

SPEAKER: seeing our innocence, our vulnerability. No one is

SPEAKER: seeing that. So if we do not take intersectional

SPEAKER: approaches to our work, we need to be talking.

SPEAKER: We need to be holding ourselves accountable to say,

SPEAKER: well, what does that mean then in terms of the

SPEAKER: impact? Does that mean that we have young people,

SPEAKER: children and young people's experiences, being

SPEAKER: disregarded, dismissed, erased?

SPEAKER: Because that is the impact.

SPEAKER: So we can talk about intersectionality in terms of

SPEAKER: why it's important or buy in.

SPEAKER: But we also need to talk about when we don't

SPEAKER: buy into it, what does that mean to the children

SPEAKER: and young people we're supposed to be safeguarding?

INEKE: Exacly. And it's about what Nick was saying earlier,

INEKE: it's not incumbent on them to explain

INEKE: that to us. Because a lot of the kids that we're

INEKE: working with, in terms of safeguarding, are surviving

INEKE: as best as they can.

INEKE: So it's our job

INEKE: to give them that voice.

INEKE: I think that's the only way that we're able to build

INEKE: that trust. Because in terms of

INEKE: systemic oppression that's been happening over years

INEKE: and years and years and the statistics from

INEKE: government websites will show you in terms of, you

INEKE: know, incarceration and the school to prison

INEKE: pipeline and all that stuff has been

INEKE: around. Kids know this.

INEKE: They know this. That's the life that they're living.

INEKE: So it's up to us to break down those barriers that

INEKE: they've had to create for themselves in order to

INEKE: survive.

NICK: I really like the point you made there.

NICK: It really resonates with me, 'the school to prison

NICK: pipeline'. And I think if we had a more intersectional

NICK: approach to how we understand trauma,

NICK: how young people might manifest their distress,

NICK: and we actually started to think around

NICK: tropes and some of the categories that we apply

NICK: to some young people and how it can include and

NICK: exclude in people. If we think of trauma responses

NICK: around boundaries,

NICK: emotional regulation, aggression,

NICK: daydreaming or disassociation, and we think

NICK: about how we might apply innocence

NICK: or vulnerability to some groups of young people and

NICK: not others, and what we can see in our alternative

NICK: education provisions, are often

NICK: whole groups of people, often males.

NICK: There's an overrepresentation within

NICK: our YOS (Youth Offending Service) and alternative

NICK: education systems of people from ethnically

NICK: minoritised backgrounds.

NICK: And I wonder if we had an intersectional of

NICK: understanding of how trauma manifests - both trauma

NICK: in the home, and outside of the home,

NICK: intergenerational trauma, communal trauma - would

NICK: we have a more therapeutic approach, rather than this

NICK: punitive and managed approach to how we work with

NICK: some of our young people, particularly

NICK: boys, where class, ethnicity

NICK: and gender and age intersects?

JAHNINE: 100 percent. I agree.

JAHNINE: And I think it makes me... as

JAHNINE: I'm saying this, I feel the discomfort of we're

JAHNINE: in safeguarding practise, and ultimately our work

JAHNINE: is to ensure that we are safeguarding and

JAHNINE: protecting children and young people,

JAHNINE: but do we always do that?

JAHNINE: Do we have a perspective

JAHNINE: or a perception of a deserving and undeserving

JAHNINE: victim? And who does that look like?

JAHNINE: And we have to own that.

JAHNINE: We have to own that. And I think, in an ideal

JAHNINE: world, you want to say, well, you know, we're doing

JAHNINE: what we can. Yes, we know that there are the

JAHNINE: background challenges which continue to be there in

JAHNINE: terms of high case loads and burnout.

JAHNINE: There is a context which we mustn't

JAHNINE: disregard, but, oppression,

JAHNINE: discrimination exists.

JAHNINE: It exists in our society.

JAHNINE: Racism is real. Something me and Nick always say in

JAHNINE: any learning and development workshop we go in,

JAHNINE: we're like, 'look, we're not here to to decide

JAHNINE: or to discuss if racism, as an example, is a real

JAHNINE: thing. We know it is. So we're not going to

JAHNINE: converse on that. What we're going to now look at

JAHNINE: is what does that mean in terms of your practice?

JAHNINE: What does that mean in terms of the individual

JAHNINE: responsibility that you take in terms of working

JAHNINE: with young people from ethnic minoritised

JAHNINE: communities? What does that mean on a systemic

JAHNINE: level?' and these are the things we have to

JAHNINE: consider when we think about intersectionality.

JAHNINE: We are inviting professionals, as I said,

JAHNINE: to step outside of their own

JAHNINE: experiences in terms of, 'well, this is the work we

JAHNINE: do, we work with young people.

JAHNINE: We might have a service for young boys'.

JAHNINE: That's great. But again, if you're still just

JAHNINE: saying a service for boys, and you're not thinking

JAHNINE: about those intersections, so touching on the point

JAHNINE: school to prison pipeline, well then, look at that

JAHNINE: from an intersectional perspective.

JAHNINE: Let's talk about why we still have Black British

JAHNINE: Caribbean boys still three times more likely

JAHNINE: to be permanently excluded than their peers.

JAHNINE: Let's look at why Gypsy-Roma Traveller boys are

JAHNINE: still more likely to be temporary excluded than

JAHNINE: their other peers. Let's talk about attainment in

JAHNINE: terms of white working class boys and why that

JAHNINE: still playing out.

SPEAKER: So we can take an intersectional approach to

SPEAKER: really allow us to see between the lines rather

SPEAKER: than just saying, 'well, we know in education we

SPEAKER: have this issue over here' or 'we know that

SPEAKER: boys are more likely to experience punitive

SPEAKER: responses', I would say, well, actually, let's look

SPEAKER: at girls. Let's look at girls from minoritised and

SPEAKER: marginalised backgrounds, because I think you see

SPEAKER: something similar playing out.

SPEAKER: When I think about my research, I see Black

SPEAKER: girls saying, 'well, actually we're getting

SPEAKER: punitive responses because no one is seeing us.

SPEAKER: We're being criminalised because no one is

SPEAKER: understanding our trauma, because everyone is

SPEAKER: responding to what they think our trauma is, or

SPEAKER: seeing our trauma as an issue and pathologising our

SPEAKER: experiences, rather than just acknowledging that we

SPEAKER: are children who have experienced abuse'.

SPEAKER: So, intersectionality is broad and

SPEAKER: encompassing. But ultimately, I would say it allows

SPEAKER: you just to explore bias, identity, positionality

SPEAKER: and inequality.

INEKE: How can we support practitioners to

INEKE: start thinking more around intersectionality?

INEKE: What would you advise?

JAHNINE: So I guess there are a number of things.

JAHNINE: First, educate yourselves.

JAHNINE: There's so much resources.

JAHNINE: You just type in intersectionality and you'll get a

JAHNINE: plethora of resource.

JAHNINE: And I guess that leads to my first point, that

JAHNINE: when we think about intersectionality it's so

JAHNINE: important that we remember its origins, so that we

JAHNINE: don't possibly erase or

JAHNINE: dismiss the experiences of Black women and girls,

JAHNINE: that by implying intersectionality, again, allows

JAHNINE: us to be really explorative and curious.

JAHNINE: But we need to also acknowledge that Black women

JAHNINE: and girls still bear the brunt of sexist, racist

JAHNINE: and classist opressions. And we must not forget

JAHNINE: that. Because those experiences still exist today.

JAHNINE: So we must ensure that as we amplify other

JAHNINE: experiences, we always remember to also

JAHNINE: amplify those too.

SPEAKER: And let's take action.

SPEAKER: Thinking about the work that you do, use those

SPEAKER: reflective spaces - whether that's in supervision,

SPEAKER: whether it's group supervision - to really discuss

SPEAKER: them and think about how intersectionality can

SPEAKER: strengthen your work. Or if you're already applying

SPEAKER: it to your work, to be able to explore how

SPEAKER: it's making an impact. So you want to do some dip

SPEAKER: sampling looking at some of your various different

SPEAKER: case files, thinking about the groups of young

SPEAKER: people you work with and explore how often identity

SPEAKER: is explored in your discussions and in your

SPEAKER: intervention. And again, think about how you

SPEAKER: apply your interventions and the work that you do

SPEAKER: and how often you explore your implicit and

SPEAKER: explicit biases. How do they play out in your work?

SPEAKER: Not just with the young people you support, but

SPEAKER: also with your colleagues as well.

SPEAKER: But in order to do that, you must take

SPEAKER: responsibility. We have to be responsible for our

SPEAKER: own practice. Yes, we are in a system, and let's

SPEAKER: think about those systemic barriers and

SPEAKER: challenges, but we also need to think about us as

SPEAKER: individuals. What can we be doing differently?

SPEAKER: How often do we reflect with you and challenge what

SPEAKER: we read? The research which we look at, who

SPEAKER: that research is for? Who the dominant voice and

SPEAKER: experiences are and therefore, again, how does that

SPEAKER: possibly influence how we understand other

SPEAKER: experiences which might differ outside of those

SPEAKER: spaces? And again, question, how can

SPEAKER: intersectionality really help inform your work?

SPEAKER: Most importantly, speak to young

SPEAKER: people and families. Hear directly from them.

SPEAKER: Be brave. Be bold.

SPEAKER: Be courageous to ask questions about their

SPEAKER: identity, their experience, celebrate that.

SPEAKER: Explore how young people experience

SPEAKER: the world. Shape your interventions, the work you

SPEAKER: do around that. Ensure that you're really being

SPEAKER: strengths-based and person-centred, by not only

SPEAKER: just exploring perceptions of behaviour or the

SPEAKER: behaviour we feel young people may be presenting -

SPEAKER: especially those who are minoritised or from

SPEAKER: marginalised backgrounds where we know they're at a

SPEAKER: heightened risk of experiencing those negative

SPEAKER: stereotypes. How do we ensure that we reflect

SPEAKER: on behaviour as an indicator of something else - of

SPEAKER: possible trauma - rather than assuming it's

SPEAKER: just a negative stereotype based on who

SPEAKER: we think those people are.

SPEAKER: Let's hear directly from young people and let that

SPEAKER: guide and shape the work that we do.