This pre recorded show furnished by Matthew Matern. You're listening to Unite and Heal America with Matt Matern on KABC 790. My guest today, Bill Magavern with Coalition for Clean Air, and looking forward to interviewing bill about the great work that the Coalition for Clean Air has done over the past 50 years fighting for clean air here in California.

And we're excited to have you on the show bill and talk about these issues. Because clean air is such an important element for all of us. And sometimes we take it for granted. But dirty air causes 1,000s of deaths every year. And a really interesting stat that I read in a National Geographic article article a few weeks ago was that something like 232,000 people would have died last year, but for the Clean Air Act number two, which was signed into law by George HW Bush back in the early 90s, with bipartisan support.

So that's the kind of impact we're talking about. That's like half the deaths of the entire pandemic. In one year, you take that over 20 years. That's what 5 million people lives who were saved by having clean air. So again, welcome to the show, Bill. And tell us a little bit about what the Clean Air Coalition does.

Sure, and thanks for inviting me, Matt, the Coalition for Clean Air, our mission is to protect public health, to improve air quality, and to prevent climate change. And as you mentioned, we've been around for 50 years this year is actually our 50th anniversary, we focus on the state of California. And we we educate people, but we also advocate and I'm the policy director. So my job is to try to get policies passed in the state of California, and sometimes at the regional and local levels around the state that are going to clean up our air.

Well, I certainly appreciate the great work that you're doing in that California is the leader for not only the country, but the world in terms of clean air legislation and clean air regulation that have led to cleaner, cleaner skies for all of us over the last 50 years.

And for many of our listeners who might not have been alive 50 years ago, it's a it's important to note that California was suffering from really bad air pollution back 50 years ago, and what has been done to change that. What what types of things did your organization do to play a role in that?

Well, you're absolutely right, Matt, California does have the best air quality policies in the United States. And often were a model for not only other states, but the federal government and for other countries around the world.

The flip side of that is that the reason why California basically got a head start in doing air quality work is that the air is the worst here in California, because of our geography, and our population and our climate. We still have the worst smog in Southern California in the entire country. And the soot or particle pollution is the worst in the San Joaquin Valley of anywhere in the country.

So we still, as you know, we've made a lot of progress. But we still have a lot of work to do to deliver healthy air to everyone in the state of California. But some of the real successes that we've had. Of course, transportation is the biggest source of air pollution by far in California. And the state of California has really taken the lead in requiring the automobile manufacturers to put new technology on their cars to reduce those harmful emissions.

And we also then inspect the cars periodically to make sure they're still keeping up with those emission standards. So Coalition for Clean Air was involved in creating that smog check program back in the 1980s as well as some of the improvements that have been made since then. We actually in recent years have gotten a law passed to require that heavy duty diesel trucks go through a smog check, which really should have been done a long time ago because they're a lot more polluting than our cars.

But somehow the trucks and been able to evade that kind of inspection and maintenance until we got to last through legislature, and now the Air Resources Board is working on implementing that law. So we expect that to go into effect in the next couple of years, we also were involved in passing a law, to have California be the first state ever to have greenhouse gas emission standards for our cars.

So we now have requirements in California that reduce the emissions, both of those gases that are making people sick locally, and also the gases that are changing the climate globally.

So where where's your organization stand on the zero emission standards that Governor Newsom had pronounced in recent in the in the last year, I believe, and the goal that he has set forth, were you lobbying for that are something different from what he's set forth?

Yes, we're strong supporters of zero emission technology. And it really was a great breakthrough, when the governor announced in September, that the state of California would make this transition to zero emission transportation. What some people don't realize is that that wasn't the end of the process, the governor can't just make it. So through an executive order, it actually means that the California Air Resources Board then has to implement that.

And they go through, and we spent a lot of time at the Air Resources Board. And that's really where most of my work happens. And they're working on a variety of proceedings, which are all open to the public and have lots of input from industry and local governments, as well as advocates like myself, and they are crafting the rules. And the goals that the governor laid out, are that for passenger cars, by 2035, all new cars would have to be zero emission.

And that doesn't mean that anybody's gonna come and take away the older cars, they still run on gasoline, it just means that new sales would be zero emission by that time. And he also said that for trucks, and for off road equipment, which includes major polluters, like ships and locomotives that burn diesel, that those would get to zero emission for all of them, the entire fleet by 2045. If that's feasible?

Well, those are big goals. And, quite frankly, I I support that and that we have in California led the way on these issues in the past, and, and many naysayers have said you can't do it, it's going to kill industry. It's impossible, don't do it don't try. And again, and again, we've shown that it can be done.

And not only that it can be done, it can be done and our economy can grow and even exceed the growth levels of other parts of the country that have lower standards for environmental regulation. So I really like to, you know, make that point. Because I think it's a point that gets lost in in this conversation a lot of times.

Well, Matt, you're absolutely right. And 15 years ago, I was one of many advocates working on the first statewide global warming law, the Global Warming Solutions Act. And when that passed, we had so many opponents saying, Oh, you're going to destroy the economy of the state of California. And we said no, actually, this will help create jobs in California.

And I'm happy to say that we were right. In fact, the biggest export that the state of California has right now is electric vehicles. And that's because of the policies that we created, that gave birth to that industry in California. And that's created 1,000s and 1,000s of jobs here.

And there are a lot of other kinds of technologies, clean energy, kind of technologies that we have created here in California. And I've been able to export to the rest of the country and the rest of the world.

Well, I know that one issue that's near and dear to me is the hydrogen vehicles and that I've driven one now for going on for years. And if it wasn't for Governor Schwarzenegger having the foresight to create the infrastructure for the hydrogen technology here in the state of California, we wouldn't be able to do it. I believe all other 49 states do not have hydrogen filling stations.

And to me that's a no brainer that we can create an infrastructure that supports zero emission vehicles, and that would allow the car companies then To make those vehicles knowing that there is a, you know, there's a market when there is an infrastructure that supports this.

I'm sure a lot of people when they hear electric vehicle, they think that only means the battery electric vehicles that we plug in and charge that way. But as you well know, that also includes hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles that run on hydrogen fuel.

And I think they're important not only for cars, but as we start to go to zero emission trucks and other types of engines, like big ocean going ships that are going to be harder to power by batteries that we're really going to need that hydrogen fuel cell technology as another zero emission options.

Absolutely. And so you're listening to Bill Magavern on Unite and Heal America. Bill is the policy director for the Coalition for Clean Air here in California. This is Matt Matern. And we'll be back in just a minute on KABC 790 to talk about ways that we can decarbonize going forward in the 21st century here.

Welcome back to Unite and Heal America with Matt Matern, KABC 790, again, we're talking to Bill Magavern, the Coalition for Clean Air 50 years, this organization has been working on behalf all Californians Bill's Policy Director, we were just talking about the the need to reduce the carbon footprint print for trains and ships, possibly with hydrogen technology, I think that may also extend to two planes and that they are working on having hydrogen as a fuel for aircraft, which would be cleaner than jet fuel. And they've they've made it work for helicopters, my understanding, so they're on the road, or the path to getting there. Airplanes

are another one of those sectors that emit a lot of pollution. And, you know, we we don't necessarily have a battery electric solution currently made, we will in the future. But we also need to be looking at solutions, like hydrogen. And you know, if you look at a place like lax the the amount of pollution that's coming from the planes as well as the ground equipment, and the traffic associated with it is really significant, especially for the people living nearby.

Right. And one of the things that is, is an important part of that is public transport. And I know your organization does some work in that area, because one of the things that I think that we could do a better job of is having public transit infrastructure so that we can move people without the need for for cars. And that would be a benefit for the general society as well. What are you? What is your organization doing to kind of further that?

We talked about how California has been a real leader in cleaning up engine technology. Over the years, we have not done as good a job when it comes to reducing the miles traveled by our vehicles. And so we need to make more investments in public transit, as well as making it safer and more convenient for people to walk or bike to their destinations.

It's difficult because it partly involves changing the way that we plan our areas so that people can live closer to their destinations, whether it be work or school, and not have these super long commutes. So we're active in the state legislature, as well as the California State Transportation Agency, Caltrans, and the California Transportation Commission. And fortunately, there have been some changes in the leadership of those agencies.

In recent years, Governor Newsom has made some some really strong appointments. And I think we are seeing now at the top, that our leaders recognize that we need to change the ways that we get around and have these options. We need to give people options so they don't have to always rely on cars in order to get where they're going. Well,

I think that one thing that could be done and it's may be seen as somewhat something radical, which is to make public transit free, and and that would greatly encourage people to use it. And I think one of the things that The people who are using public transit, for the most part are lower income folks. And so it kind of be a win win situation. I mean, you're, you're putting money into the hands of writing people keep the money that they they're working for, versus paying for it.

And you would get people out of their cars, if you if you make it an incentive for them to get out of their cars, they will, or it's more likely that they will, versus if you're charging for public transit, anywhere near the price that it takes to drive a vehicle, a lot of people are going to choose, I'm going to stay in my car for the personal freedom that it gives me. But if if you make the economic incentive, pretty high to take public transit, you're, you're gonna have more people jump in, jump on the bus or the train.

That's right. And, you know, we organize a day every year called California Clean Air Day. And this year's is on October 6, it's always the first Wednesday, in October, so this year, it's the sixth. And we ask people to take a pledge, and to take actions that will help to clean up the air, you can find out more at CleanAirDay.org. And we work with a lot of institutions, including transit agencies, like LA Metro, and Sacramento Regional Transit. And, and some of these agencies have observed Clean Air Day by offering free transit on that day.

So you know, that's just a test, as you're saying, we need to do it all year round, not just one day, something else that we've done is we've supported legislation, that would make a start by providing free transit to students. Because that's a sector that tends to be transit dependent. Now, they don't tend to be people who have a lot of money. And we want them to be able to get to school and back and preferably without driving cars. Unfortunately, those bills haven't passed. But you know, it's the way we need to go.

Right? If we're spending billions of dollars on other pieces of the transition to a greener economy, I think that's a kind of a no brainer, that would encourage less vehicles and enemies, and we're talking about the production of less vehicles also leads to less carbon in the environment, because the production of one car takes a lot of carbon to put a car together.

So if you can take cars off the road completely, I mean, or people decide, hey, it's cheaper for me to ride the bus than it is to have a car in my driveway. And you you've got so many wins coming out of that decision.

So we got some very good news today, Governor Newsom announced the May revision to his budget. So taking advantage of the fact that the state has just a mind boggling budget surplus. I mean, it's absolutely astonishing.

There's a $75 billion budget surplus, and the governor chose to make some very wise investments, including in public transit, and clean transportation. So he announced today, billions of dollars in investments in in rail, transit, and bus and including $1 billion dedicated to improving transportation for the 2028 Olympics.

So that's obviously going to help a lot in Southern California. He also announced that he'd be investing a lot of money in zero emission trucks, and buses, and cars for lower income people. So that kind of incentive funding is a great way of providing the carrots.

The regulations provide the sticks, and between the two of them, they really move us towards that zero emission future. Right, so what do you see as the best things that California can do? At this point in time, given where we're at?

Well, we need to implement the Governor's executive orders. And that means the Air Resources Board in December is planning to adopt a requirement that the big trucking fleets by escalating percentages of zero emission trucks, they've already told the truck manufacturers that they will have to make some of these cleaning trucks and now they're going to tell the customers they need to buy some so you work both ends of that.

You also need the infrastructure to provide charging if their battery electric trucks or hydrogen fuel Get their fuel cell trucks. And the governor's announcement today included that infrastructure, as well as some funding for the vehicles. The board also needs to, as I said earlier, implement the law that we passed requiring a smog check for trucks. And they're also scheduled to vote this year, cleaning cleaning up harbor craft. These are surprisingly heavily polluting boats.

And people who live near the harbor areas of Los Angeles and Long Beach, are breathing in these fumes coming from diesel engines on the boat. So that's another sector of what we call off road engines that need to be cleaned up. Next year, they're planning to take action on locomotive engines, which are burning dirty diesel fuel.

And unfortunately, you know, even though rail is, in theory, an efficient way to move people and goods, but unfortunately, the big national railroads have been sending some of their dirtiest engines to Southern California. And so we need to tell them to bring cleaner engines that are already available into this state. And then ultimately, to get those non polluting engines like hydrogen technology that we talked about.

Right? In terms of the hydrogen technology for the trucks, the 18 wheelers, they're going to have to put in an entirely additional set of at least pumping stations, because the ones that are primarily in place, I'm not sure they're going to be easy enough to use at your standard urban station for an 18 Wheeler. So obviously, they need they need fuel

on the freeways are near to the freeways, and they have to get them by the off ramps, and so on and so forth. But that's, that's a logistical challenge. But it's certainly within reason I think they, I heard it priced out at around a million dollars a station, which sounds like a lot of money.

But when you consider the totality of what's at stake, it wouldn't cost that much to put in the necessary stations to run the run a truck, a truck network, probably 100 to 200 stations, but we really need to have buy in from a national level and then we can talk about that when we come back after the break.

You've been listening to Unite and Heal America on KABC 790. My host my guest again, Bill Magavern with the Coalition for Clean Air and we'll be back in just one minute.

You're listening to Unite and Heal America with Matt Matern, KABC 790, my guest again, Bill Magavern, Coalition for Clean Air, the Policy Director and Bill just wanted to kind of turn your attention to national policy and how national policy is kind of meshing with the policy we have here in California, as we were just talking about before the break in terms of hydrogen economy,

California has got a hydrogen economy that's starting to go. The question is for long haul truckers. It's challenging, they got to have available fueling stations outside of California. What is happening on that front?

Well, I mean, there was one company that claimed he was going to set up a network of hydrogen fueling stations for heavy duty long haul trucks.

But they haven't produced on that yet. I think you're right, the federal government needs to make a consistent investment in the cleanest technologies, and also to require all trucks nationally, to be much cleaner than they are currently. And that will also help California because a high percentage of the truck traffic in California comes from out of state.

Right there has to be national leadership on this front. And quite frankly, as somebody who's watching it from the hydrogen side of the fence, I see that the electric battery powered lobby is doing a great job at promoting their fuel solution, but the hydrogen folks are not punching into that weight.

And all I hear is electric electric electric, which if you read the bill gates book and talking to you to that isn't that isn't a model that works for a long haul truck, because the battery required to push a long haul truck would would be half the volume of the truck. So we've got the hydrogen actually works and that starts km stands for battery will not so?

Well, I wouldn't count out batteries for long haul because the battery technology has been improving rapidly in recent years, improving efficiency and coming down in price. But we cannot afford to put all our eggs in that basket. And a lot of the experts do think that hydrogen fuel cell might end up being the superior option for long haul trucking. So yeah, we really need to keep investing in bulk. Right, I was

surprised to learn that long haul truck can go about 1000 miles on a tank of gas. So that obviously leads to their kind of being able to cover a lot of ground without stopping as much. And that that would be really greatly impeded by going to an electric technology that might not have as long of a charge per per fill up.

But kind of pivoting to other national policy goals and challenges that face California in syncing up with the national policy, what to what challenges problems that you see on the horizon, working with the current Biden

administration? Well, California now has, I think, a strong partnership with the Biden administration. A great example of that is that the US EPA, and Department of Transportation recently indicated that they want to restore California's authority to set car standards that are stronger than the federal government's.

And this is an authority that California has had for over 50 years, and has exercised many times, the federal government only a couple of times has tried to block this state. And, you know, including recently under the Trump administration, so with the Biden folks wanting to restore that, that allows California to again, take that leadership role, say we're really gonna push the envelope on zero emission vehicles.

And then the other 49 states, they're not able to set their own standards, they really have two choices, they can stick with the weaker federal standards, or they can opt into California's stronger standards. So it's not like the auto companies need to make 50 different versions of their cars.

And mostly would have to make to ideally, what happens is, California gets out front, and then the federal government adopts our standards. And we just have one strong national standard. And that has happened in the past and I hope will happen again.

Well, I understand what how many states have followed California's that 810 states that are currently felt falling, California stands about 13 I think it is now.

So we're up to 13. And I'm curious as to what percentage of the popular national population does that that's about 40% of the new car market.

That's that's quite a big chunk. So it's sizable,

Yeah. Because it includes New York, you know, some big states, Minnesota just added recently, just in the last couple of weeks.

That's, that's fantastic.

So we're making strides in the right direction. Of course, the time clock is ticking. And how can we how can we meet a zero emissions targets on the current trajectory that we're on?

You're right, we need to speed it up. There's no question about that. And time is of the essence, you know, there's some issues where time is kind of on our side, when it comes to pollution. It's not. And, you know, we've seen generations of children grow up breathing, dirty air. And it really, you know, kids get asthma, they have to stay home from school, they can have lifelong effects of breathing particulate matter, older adults are also more sensitive to air pollution.

So it's a problem that we really need to treat with much more urgency than we have been treating it. And you know, one way I look at it is, where's the operation warp speed, or air pollution? Right, we had an operation warp speed that really did a great job of coming up with vaccines, a great success for this country. Why are we not doing that for air pollution, which is killing hundreds of 1000s of Americans every year? Well,

I agree with that. We need to focus on it and and unfortunately, it's because it's kind of a silent killer. People don't kind of notice it, it it happens so incrementally, that it's a it's insidious and Something that's under the radar screen.

So how do we get people's attention? How do you educate people to the, to this problem and get get them to call their representatives and and be involved in this in this process? Yeah, it is a challenge. I think, you know, I hear often from people in Southern California who grew up there, that, you know, in the 60s and 70s, the the smog was so bad, they couldn't see the mountains. And isn't it wonderful that you know, now you can usually see them. It is wonderful.

But unfortunately, the scientific and medical evidence has shown us over time that air pollution is even more harmful to our health than we thought it was. So even though it looks better, and it is better, we're still not at a healthy level. So we do try to educate people, that certainly one of the goals of our California Clean Air Day.

And we ask people to take action by contacting whether it be state legislators or regulators or local elected officials, and to let them know that they should make it a priority to clean up our air. And I think last year, there was maybe an increased recognition, because earlier in the year, we had some really clear skies, particularly around March, and it was partly because people were staying home because of COVID.

It was also partly because the weather patterns were actually very favorable. And then we noticed later in the year, the smog picked up, because even though there were not as many cars on the road, there were still a lot of trucks delivering all the goods that people were ordering.

Right while we were at home. And then when we got into late summer and fall, we had the horrific wildfires. And we were just blanketed with that horrible smoke for weeks on end. And it really I think, brought home to people how damaging it is to our lungs.

Yeah, no doubt.

I mean, the pictures coming out of San Francisco around that period of time, were just incredible. It's kind of surreal. How how horrible it was. So what can we do to clean up our air and our atmosphere both as individuals and society? What what are the things that you would say to the average person, what they can do to help clean up the air that we are all having to breathe, and many of us getting sick from?

What are the things that you would point to? Oh, as we've discussed, most of our air pollution comes from transportation, about 80% of the air pollution in California. And when we talk about the greenhouse gas pollution, it's roughly 50% comes from transportation. So if you're going to be buying a new car, buy the cleanest one, you can zero emission, if possible. But also try to reduce your driving by carpooling, or combining trips, or walking or biking.

And then we also we focus a lot on personal transportation, we forget about how much the transportation involves moving goods. So if you're going to do online ordering, then it can be efficient. If you're only ordering online and not also making trips to the stores in a polluting car. And if you group your packages, so that you're not getting you know, several packages a week, and also allow for more time, if you choose the I need it right away.

That will mean more trucks on the road to deliver that package. But if you plan ahead and choose the slowest delivery option, then that actually can be efficient.

Well, those are great suggestions very practical. And I think that's the kind of thing that we all need to hear and be reminded of because we can make an impact each of us in our day to day decisions that helps clean up our air. You're listening to Unite and Heal America and KABC 790. My guest again, Bill Magavern with the Coalition for Clean Air. We'll be back in just a minute to talk about how we can clean up the air if you're in Southern California and around the planet.

You're listening to Unite and Heal America and KVC 790 This is Matt Matern, my guest Bill Magavern with the Coalition for Clean Air. Bill want to talk to you again about what the government can be doing and what private industry can be doing on a on a kind of larger scale. Other than personal decisions, which we were just talking about, and the things that you think, are going to make the impact going forward in the next eight to 10 years, right?

I mean, even though it's important for us to do what we can, in our personal lives, it's also crucial for us to come together and demand that our elected officials take the necessary actions, because only through that force of government, can we rein in the really big polluters, that are responsible for most of the problems. So we need to demand that our officials, you know, from the President on down to the city council, make it a priority to solve these twin crises of air pollution and climate change.

And that, you know, that does mean, telling the oil companies that their days are numbered, and telling the car companies that they need to clean up their acts, we also need to green our electric grid. So we talked about cars that we can charge for electricity, we want to make sure that that's clean electricity. And in California, we have a grid that's relatively green.

And it's getting cleaner all the time. Because we will buy almost no coal fired electricity at this point. And we've been rapidly ramping up the amount of clean, renewable electricity we're using, like solar and wind power. And that's really a model that the rest of the country should be following. And there are proposals to get us to zero carbon electricity by 2035.

That would be ambitious and difficult, but we need to do some things that are ambitious and difficult. Just like President Kennedy announced, we're going to put a man on the moon and in under 10 years. And so we need an Apollo project for our environment.

So in terms of the electrical sector, what percentage is, is the wind and solar currently are wind and solar currently? And what's their trajectory for California to getting them to closer to 100%? And how can California kind of encourage that behavior by individuals and companies to to hit that target?

So in California, I think we're about 30%, over 30%, renewable now. And the law requires getting to 50% renewable by 2026 and 60%. By 2030. I think that all the people who observe this closely agree that it will be no problem to hit those targets. And in fact that we probably need to accelerate them. We have in law, a goal of zero carbon electricity by 2045.

I expect probably in the next few years, there will be a law passed to accelerate that. And I think some other states have already surpassed that in their plans, not in their actual implementation. But basically, we have now really inexpensive options in solar and wind, we need better storage. And that's because we electricity is something that you need to have at a particular moment. And so if you're generating a lot of solar electricity in the afternoon, which is usually the case, and then, you know, wind picks up in late afternoon, and at night, you want to be able to store that for the times when you need it later on.

And so battery storage has improved a lot, it's still relatively expensive, but the costs are coming down. Hydrogen could be a great way to store excess solar electricity, and have it for use later on. pumped hydro is an option. So we need to be able to balance out the grid with the storage technologies, and also to have some of the resources providing clean, renewable electricity around the clock.

And that could be like geothermal or solar thermal power. So it does take some careful planning. And the agencies in California have not always done as good a job at that as they should.

Well, I as I've read a bit more about this. I think that one of our national priorities has to be a national grid, which can allow for electricity to be sent across the country. trade to the areas that need it most. And currently, we don't have that. It seems like it's quite a hodgepodge.

And that, to me is got to be a top priority if we're going to get that done. And I guess the question is, where are we at in terms of of getting that done? And is that is that going to solve our problem just having a national grid? Or do you think we're still going to have to have a lot better storage capability, as you said, through pumped hydro or

hydrogen tech technology, there are some interesting and vigorous debates among energy experts and advocates as to whether we want increased transmission of electricity from place to place, or whether we want to have more of a decentralized system, where you're generating your power locally, and using what are sometimes called micro grids.

It's interesting that the state of Texas decided that it didn't want to rely on power coming from any other state. So it's the only state in the country that has its own isolated transmission system. And when they had the deep freeze last winter, it really hurt Texas, because they were not able to import electricity from other states. And so you had blackouts that went on for a very long time, much longer than our California blackouts, and people that really suffered because of it.

So I do think that having better connection is going to help us. I believe that that's part of President Biden's infrastructure proposal. But how that will do and Congress remains to be seen. Well, what's your position on these micro grids and how they can work or not work in,

in the future, we do support clean micro grids, because just one of the big problems we've had in California is wildfires are often caused by high winds. So we've had utilities shutting off the power when it's really windy, what are called the Public Safety, power shut offs.

And, of course, it's it's really a problem for people to be without their electricity for a long time. So there's been a lot of people, particularly those who are most affected in those rural areas have gone and bought backup generators. And these generators are usually running on gasoline or diesel, and they're really dirty.

So a solution to this would be having a micro grid that's powered by clean, renewable electricity. And that if you're shutting off the transmission lines, because you're worried about fire, that micro grid, because it is self contained, it doesn't rely on long distance transmission lines, that could continue to power a community.

Maybe we should back up a step here, because both for the listeners and myself explaining a little bit more about what a micro grid is, and how it integrates with a macro grid. So a micro grid basically refers to a system at a smaller scale, like a community level, that does connect the buildings in that community.

And, and can be an island essentially, if necessary, not relying on transmission from outside of the community. So it can connect to that broader grid and would be connected, but does have the potential to to run on its own.

And how does that how is that different than our current system, where we have power transmission lines running from house to house to to generating stations? So the current system is we rely on major transmission lines so that if those go out?

No, because they're caught in some way, or are intentionally shut down to prevent a fire, then we all lose power. Whereas if you had a micro grid, then you could lose that, that bigger long distance transmission line and still have your power locally.

So that does seem to make some sense that all of us should be a little bit more reliant or self reliant. And how does it does it cost extra money to create a micro grid and what's in it for the community to create one?

It does cost and I think that's probably the biggest obstacle right now. And I think you know, what's in it for the community is being able to keep the lights on and the refrigerator on and the essential equipment running At a time when your utility is shutting off the power. Yes, given the wildfires that we've seen, unfortunately, it looks like that's the situation a lot of the state's going to be living with for a long time to come.

Well, Bill, it's been a pleasure having you on the show. And I like to have you back at some point in time. how can listeners find out more about the Coalition for Clean airs work and about clean air day and how they can get involved in in this work that we're all doing to clean up our air here in California.

So to find out more about Coalition for Clean Air work, and particularly to look at the policy issues that were involved in, you can go to ccair.org, ccaair.org. And find out more about Clean Air Day, which is October 6, this year, you can go to cleanairday.org.

Okay, that's great. And again, thank you for being on the show, Bill. It's, it's been great having you and it's great. It's great work that you're doing and your organization's doing for the last 50 years fighting for all of us to have clean air, which is obviously imperative for good health and we we greatly support that work and look forward to working with your organization going forward.

Again, you've been listening to Unite and Heal America and KABC 790 with my guest Bill Magavern for the Coalition for Clean Air. Have a great week. We look forward to talking with you next week.