DeWitt Bingham 0:00 In 1965, little was known about the FBI involvement in a lot of the undercover work that they were doing how they were trying to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan. And so Gary Thomas role was recruited by the FBI. And he would report back to the FBI, the things that he was about to partake in, he let them know ahead of time, that he actually was going to be involved in that murder. And the FBI didn't do anything.

Steve Fast 0:47 Secrets lies a murder and an FBI disinformation campaign. It's all the story of Viola Liuzzo housewife and mother who was gunned down in Selma, Alabama, in 1965. I'm Steve fast. And this is random acts of knowledge presented by Heartland Community College, where we talk to experts from all around, we dispense their knowledge to us. So we are talking today with DeWitt Bingham. He teaches Criminal Justice at Heartland and he's the author of a new book called Viola Liuzzo. Am I getting the name right? That's correct, a true martyr. And this is a fascinating story. And one that doesn't immediately reveal all the complications and the dark part of American history. And the depth of the darkness kind of continues on. First of all, tell us a little bit. For those who don't know, who was Viola Liuzzo.

DeWitt Bingham 1:43 She was the only Caucasian woman to be murdered during the civil rights movement with Dr. King and the march from Selma to Montgomery.

Steve Fast 1:54 There are a lot of heroic people that came out of the civil rights movement. What drew you specifically to Viola Liuzzo story?

DeWitt Bingham 2:03 Well, when I was researching my first book, Hope deferred makes the heart sick. But when the desire comes, I was talking about Dr. King, as you said, there's many people Dr. King, Ida B, wells, Thurgood Marshall, and many others. And I ran across the name Viola Liuzzo. And I was like, Who is this lady? Why aren't we talking about her more? The fact that she was Caucasian, and she actually put aside, living in Detroit in a what I would call middle class lifestyle, to go to Selma and take on the voting rights and our the plight of the African American. And it was just, you know, really stimulating to me. And that's really what actually got me to research her a little further.

Steve Fast 2:56 Her personal story is so interesting. When she died, she

DeWitt and Steve 2:59 was 40 years old. Yes, she's 39 years of age five

Steve Fast 3:03 children, mother of five, correct, lived in Detroit, picked up and went down to Alabama to help the civil rights movement. What motivated her to do that.

DeWitt Bingham 3:15 She was actually watching TV, now known as Bloody Sunday, which was March 7 1965. And she saw many people involved in an attempt to March, which was actually the first march many people don't know that there were actually three marches or attempts. And she saw people who were engaged in that attempt being sprayed with water hoses being hit, with billy clubs, being actually assaulted by law enforcement in many cases. And she says to herself, very people talk about trying to make a change and do something to make a change. But I need to actually go down and do this. And she actually leaves from Wayne State University, which is where she is actually studying nursing, because she knows that if she goes home, her husband, and her children are going to talk her out of it. And she actually tells her best friend to help take care of her children. And she actually leaves from Wayne State and goes to some.

Steve Fast 4:23 Wow. And so what were some of the things that she did down there? Did she know anybody that connected her with the movement, it's just show up at an office one day and say, I'm here to volunteer,

DeWitt Bingham 4:33 we see just kind of did that she just showed up? And actually, she knew that she was studying nursing, and she was in hopes that if nothing else, she could actually use her nursing skills to help in a situation where if people got injured, so she knew what she was actually facing. I like to say that she had nothing to gain and everything to lose, and certainly she did. And so She gets down there and she actually allows her car to be used as sort of a taxi. And that's kind of what she was doing. She actually participated in taxing people to inform Montgomery to Selma.

Steve Fast 5:15 I know she was involved with the Selma to Montgomery march, the one that was actually protected, I believe, by the National Guard right after there was a ruling to say you have to protect these people's speech rights, right. But around that time, as she was shuttling around volunteers, this is when this story turns very tragic talk about what happened. It's very murky. And the details of what exactly happened didn't even come out, really until decades later. But she was killed.

DeWitt Bingham 5:46 Yes, yes, she was. And, yeah, like you said, the details didn't come out, because there were four Ku Klux Klan who were actually responsible for her death. And after the final march to Selma, from Selma to Montgomery, and they really had been victorious. She's actually taxing people back to Selma. And one of the things that always stood out to me or has stood out to me is that there were six people in the car when she was headed back to Selma. And two of them were Caucasian teenagers. 16 years of age. And so she's on her way back. And she actually all the passengers actually give back to Selma, and they actually go on their way. And so she's on her way back to Montgomery, to drop off Leroy Moulton. And that's when the four Ku Klux Klan members actually murdered her. But Gary Thomas Roe, who was an FBI informant is the individual that many believe actually killed her. But it didn't come out that he actually was really involved until the church Senate committee hearings and where he actually testified that he was actually involved in some of the assaults on the Freedom Riders and such,

Steve Fast 7:11 to go to the actual moment of the story. If you're watching this from afar, if you're seeing the developments of the civil rights movement, the things that are happening, the marches, the the acts of violence, the protests against that this was big news at the time when Viola, and how many passengers were in the car, was it just her and just her Leroy and Leroy Leroy survive did. But so those two were shot that made big news. In fact, President Johnson even went on television the next day, and gave a statement saying that the killers were apprehended. Now, as an outside observer, once thinking, this is this is swift justice happening. But as you say, there was so much more to the story of the people that committed this act of violence, the Klan members, and it got much more complicated. The involvement of the FBI was something that was not known right away. How, what happened, because obviously, we've President Johnson is going on television and telling people that these killers have been apprehended calm down. One would think that the government was sort of on the side of right here. But what did the FBI then do after those killers had been apprehended?

DeWitt Bingham 8:38 Yes, you're correct. In 1965. little was known about the FBI involvement in a lot of the undercover work that they were doing and how they were trying to infiltrate the Ku Klux Klan. And so Gary Thomas row was recruited by the FBI to actually do that. And he would report back to the FBI, the things that he was about to partake in, and he let them know ahead of time, one of the things that came out that he let them know ahead of time, that he actually was going to be involved in that murder. And the FBI didn't do anything. And so in 1965, Gary Thomas role was kind of viewed as a hero, because he was their star witness against the other three men that were involved. And, again, it didn't come out until 10 years later, to where he actually came before the Senate committee and actually testify to the things that he actually did, and that the FBI knew, but as you said, J. Edgar Hoover, who was over the FBI at the time, he actually said some things that were very, very negative about Viola and that he suggests said that she was a drug user suggested that her husband was a Teamster strong arm person involved with the MA and mafia, and actually did a smear campaign against her. And as a result, your Thomas row was kind of viewed as a hero, and family who are is a very forgiving family. Chapter Two is about just them. And they actually believe that we live in the United States, the land of the free home of the brave, and we trust what our federal government actually what he is doing. But later on, they would come to know that Gary Thomas roe actually was involved in everything.

Steve Fast 10:44 Well, and it wasn't apparent at the time, a lot of these stories did come up. And there were two trials, there was the state trial. And sadly, at the time, these men were acquitted in the state court. And there were all these stories, as you say, going around about a vial of being a drug user about having an affair with a young man that was also in the car, all these things that weren't true. This is part of what your research revealed. This was an FBI disinformation campaign.

DeWitt Bingham 11:13 It really was, I mean, here was a woman that was trying to do nothing but good. The other sad part about is that and I liked the way Anthony Jr. Puts it, you talked about forgiving, he simply says, that's just the way things were. We know how that was the way things were, even though they file a federal lawsuit, civil lawsuit, and try to actually get the FBI or the government to admit their involvement. They didn't win. Not only did they not win, but they were ordered to pay like $80,000. And that Artur was actually done away with so to speak. And they didn't have to pay that. But yeah, I mean, just the fact that your mom was trying to do nothing but good. And then the government kind of puts out a smear campaign against her.

Steve Fast 12:06 Well, it's interesting also to see how there was a lot of secrecy involved in the FBIs involvement. And it would appear that they were trying to cover up their knowledge for knowledge with this informant who two of the Klansmen said, the informant was the trigger man, he's the person that actually fired the gun. And the informant was given immunity, he was given a deal. And the Klansmen even though that they were acquitted in the state court, they were acquitted of federal crimes. Correct. But what did the family of Viola Liuzzo have to do to learn this information to get this truth to come out? To find the truth behind who was trying to smear the reputation of their mother?

DeWitt Bingham 12:56 Yeah, they actually did file that civil suit against the federal government. And there were actually a couple of suits they actually filed prior to that a lot of people don't know about James Peck and Dr. Walter Bergman, who actually went to a small college in Greenville, Illinois, who was a freedom writer, and they had filed suit and ended up getting compensated. So those were precedent cases. But yeah, the suit basically allege that Viola had the right to protest, and that she had the right to assist African Americans to register to vote, and to vote for whatever national or federal candidate that they wanted to vote for, and that she had the right to actually march from Selma to Montgomery. And they actually, they being the for Ku Klux Klan members actually violated that. Right. And as a result of that, when they had the court hearing, a lot of things came out in regard to how the FBI was involved in how Gary Thomas Roe was involved in a lot of violence that was perpetrated on the Freedom Riders and even alleged to be involved in the 16th Street bombing, and Birmingham and some of the other violence that took place. And so it was found out that he actually was doing more negative things, then he was positive as being an undercover informant for the FBI.

Steve Fast 14:30 Even then, even through the trial. There were a lot of records that were sealed and that the general public didn't know about. And I know through some of your research for this book, you had to track down some of the things that had been obfuscated for a long time. What were some of the documents that existed that you were most surprised to find out about through the process of putting all this together?

DeWitt Bingham 14:55 Yeah, there was the two cases that that I talked about James Peck and Dr. Walker Bergman, also the testimony of some of the people that was actually with Viola, as she was leaving to go from Montgomery, to Selma. And they actually testify that on her way from Montgomery to Selma as she was taxiing them back, nothing out of the ordinary actually, they could remember occur. And so the four alleged individuals from the Ku Klux Klan, everything took place as they were on their way back. And so but yeah, it was just amazing to see all the documentation that was actually a part of that, and and how our government has the right to actually not allow the public to know about that information, until some type of documents are found to get that release.

Steve Fast 15:57 You know, it's interesting to look at this story. In a we're in a time now, where there are people that are sowing a seed, the, for instance, the FBI is, is operating independently. There was a time when the FBI operated independently, in looking at the perspective of the power that Hoover had, and the way that the FBI was so insular. Can you contrast that in the way that things were in the 60s with what you would see now? Do you think that what we see now is people should be worried about concerns of an independent, FBI independent Justice Department, which should be independent? Or is it it's just not even the same thing?

DeWitt Bingham 16:44 No, I totally believe that there is this kind of adversarial type of system that we have of liberty versus, you know, safety, so to speak, in that some things, you know, in order for us to be safe, we do have to conceal some things and do some things undercover. And so in terms of that, it is really difficult to actually know when you're going too far. And so I really believe in our government. And I'm glad that they are working to keep us safe with Homeland Security and all that. But it is a difficult balance. But back then, you know, they had a lot more like you said, or that you pointed out they had a lot more discretion as to what they could conceal and what they could actually do. And our government has gotten better, I believe at making sure that we are aware of what's going on in this dispensation.

Steve Fast 17:52 The wet thing is the author of a new book is called Viola Liuzzo, a true martyr. He teaches Criminal Justice at Heartland Community College and we have been really enjoying this conversation with him today. Do it. Thanks so much for being with us today.

DeWitt Bingham 18:06 Appreciate it Steve.

Steve Fast 18:08 Thank you. Thanks for listening to random acts of knowledge. Make sure to subscribe to catch all our topics and learn something you don't know.